Water into Wine.

[Jase]

Oh, what documents prior to this generation states that did not believe the Earth was created in 6 days ? Because 80 years ago there was no doubts to the creation story, the doubts only arised when scientist were able to ( so they say ) accurately age things. So i am curious to read what document prior to 80 years ago said or even implied that Genesis did not happen exactly as it says it did? Please educate me.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

Aside from Melethiel's link on Augustine, Creationists disproved the global flood 200 years ago, before Darwin ever came on the scene.

 

[Jase]

Just for clarification, not all "Creationist" who believe in the Word of God as true and inerrant interpret Genesis 1 as you apparently do.

I believe a more correct translation of the original "scripture", without the bias of the YEC doctrine, reveals that the universe and the planet (foundations covered with waters) existed prior to the events of the 6 days which started with "light".

The ONLY way to have it say anything else is to add words to passages like Gen. 1:16 and Exodus 20:11 to make them say something different than they do.

I too believe that scripture tells us that the events of the creation week happened some 6,000 years ago, but that shouldn't be joined with the creation of the universe or the primitive planet.

It would be correct to contend that scripture says God created all the original biology and brought forth land from below the waters some 6,000 years ago, but to associate that with the universe is going to create some problems for you, both scripturally and by general revelation.

This is just as difficult to defend as Dave's view. You are aware that civilization has existed longer than 6,000 years right? In fact, the pre-dynastic Egyptians i believe existed earlier than that. The pinnacle of Ancient Egypt - the Pyramids of Giza were being built in the middle of the supposed Global flood.

 

[Deamiter]

DiscipleDave, I've only been alive for a couple of decades, but in that time I've prayerfully studied scriptures and been lead by hard study and by the Holy Spirit to an understanding of scripture that is consistant with God's revelation in creation. And yet my God-given understanding is different from yours.

You claim that God would shut you up if you preached something that was not from him -- why then did God not shut up a single one of his followers who preached geocentrism or even a flat earth? Do you claim that every single person who preached geocentrism on Biblical grounds was not lead to their understanding by God?

He would prevent me from teaching things that were not from Him, and i teach these things in His Name, for at the end of each post i say In His Holy and precious Name, Jesus Christ.

You've just claimed that everything you've said is true because everything you've said is given directly by God. Perhaps we should save your writings and compile them as an addition to the canon! After all, since what you write is not your words but God's, it would be almost blasphemous NOT to include your writing in the Bible!

It's been quite a long while since I've corresponded with somebody who ascribed to the mystical Christianity that claims that when you use certain words or phrases, God gives you extra special power. I guess I wouldn't normally claim that it's evidence of my being right, but I do routinely ask God to teach me and lead me to change my understanding if it is in any way incorrect. It seems that you're well past the point of correction and believe you have a perfect understanding of God and scripture. Maybe the Holy Spirit has indeed made your understanding perfect on all spiritual matters... or perhaps you have closed your mind to the truth by resting in the security that once you've decided you have all the answers, you can reject even the teaching of the Holy Spirit because if it conflicts with your current understanding, you know it must not be of Christ.

Just to play along and invoke those magical words that 'prove' you're right (because as you claim, God would silence you if you invoke his name in error):

In His precious and holy name, Jesus Christ.

Deamiter

 

[Deamiter]

Well let me address one thing here, i believe Genesis 1 is in need of no interpretation, mine, yours or theirs. i believe what it says, therefore it is not my interpretations, but i merely beleive it. IF Genesis says He created the Earth in 6 days, i believe that, not intepreting that, i believe it, because that is what it says, no interpretation needed.

Nonsense, you're trying to play semantical games and redefining the term "interpretation" in order to define your interpretation as correct. The very assertion that Genesis 1 is factually accurate is itself an interpretation by definition. Your circular hermeneutic of "I'm not interpreting, I just know" is a great argument... as long as you only talk to those who agree with you. That this assertion has no logical or factual basis is quite evident.

You do well in saying " I believe " and all of us have a right to believe whatsoever we will believe, and i choose to beleive Scriptures, and they clearly teach that God created the Earth in 6 days, and notice i am only discussing the Earth, and not the Universe.

By the same standard of "I just believe the scriptures" Jesus is a loaf of bread and a door. Your standard of "I just know what the Bible says" is utterly useless and extremely dangerous because it forces you to refuse any competing interpretation. Honestly, if the Holy Spirit came to you today and told you that your interpretation of Genesis 1 was incorrect, you would ignore the Holy Spirit himself assuming that since the Holy Spirit disagrees with your interpretation, the Holy Spirit must be demonic. A very dangerous position to be in indeed!

Hear me if you will hear, your self-verifying standard of Biblical interpretation is not only solidly unBiblical, but in being utterly immune to correction (even from God) is also extremely dangerous as you rely solely on the personal understanding of scripture that you had at the moment you adopted this standard.

In the precious and holy name of Jesus Christ.

Deamiter

 

[DiscipleDave]

This is just as difficult to defend as Dave's view. You are aware that civilization has existed longer than 6,000 years right? In fact, the pre-dynastic Egyptians i believe existed earlier than that. The pinnacle of Ancient Egypt - the Pyramids of Giza were being built in the middle of the supposed Global flood.

Tell me, who says civilizations existed longer then 6000 years ago ? Scientists ?

who says the pyramids of Giza were being built in the middle of the supposed global flood ? Scientists ?

Tell you what, i choose to believe God, you can believe men.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[lucaspa]

Now we know, Wine the longer it is aged the better it will taste. So then the older that it is, the better it is.

... Now then here is the Question, if Jesus can instantly make wine that is OLD, that is to say well AGED. How is it a great thing that God can create the EArth and all things thereon in 6 days, that in every way appears to be old and aged, yet are days old?

Humans do age wine -- NOW. But there is some wine that is very good without aging. And in Jesus' time wine was NOT aged -- they did not have the technology to do so well and it was way too expensive. So your analogy is wrong.

As to why God would not create the earth as young and make it look otherwise: it makes God a liar! So we can't trust Him for the things that we really do need to trust Him on -- such as salvation.

But it is interesting that professional creationists have seen the arguments against the Appearance of Age and try to trot out the water-to-wine to try to get around it.

Jesus in a matter of seconds created a wine that was seconds old, but in every way tasted as AGED wine.

That's the fallacious conclusion.

There are two types of people in this world concerning this topic, Those who believe the Words of God and what they say ( creationist ) and those who doubt what the Words of God say. ( Evolutionist )

Scriptures teach the Earth was created in 6 days, you either believe God or you believe men. It is that simple.

Uh, scriptures also teach that the heavens and earth were made in a single day. (Genesis 2:4b).

Yes, you either believe God or men. Too bad you believe men.

 

[Deamiter]

You forgot the name itself, Deamiter. Fixed it for you.

Thanks, but because my words are aledgedly perfect only if I invoke his name myself, I went back and fixed it myself. I really don't run into many people who think that you must invoke the name of Christ at the end of everything you write or you risk somehow being wrong. It seems to stem from a rather poor reading of scriptures that talk about the "name of the Lord." In fact, in the Hebrew culture of the time, the "name of the Lord" was not referring to the written or spoken name, but to the very essence and person of God himself. Certain groups have since used it to claim that everything must have "in Christ's name" tacked onto the end to be holy.

I certainly don't claim that "In Christ's name" is worthless or somehow unbiblical, but to claim that we are commanded to pray with this phrase tacked on the end is a severe misinterpretation of the scriptures. I'm not sure DiscipleDave was claiming such a thing of course, I just went over the subject recently in pretty exhaustive detail in a group I was a member of and this talk about Christ silencing us if we're wrong and invoke the phrase just reminded me so much of the gnosticism of old where all this started.

 

[lucaspa]

Oh, what documents prior to this generation states that did not believe the Earth was created in 6 days ? Because 80 years ago there was no doubts to the creation story, the doubts only arised when scientist were able to ( so they say ) accurately age things.

Melethiel gave you one. John Calvin's Commentaries on Genesis is another. Still another is the first quote in my signature.

Christians knew by 1800 that the earth was incredibly older than 6,000 years and was not created in 6 literal days. You can find the history detailed in Davis Young's The Biblical Flood: A Case History of the Church's Response to Extrabiblical Evidence (including a bibliography to the original books), part of which is online here: http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p82.htm

 

[lucaspa]

Tell me, who says civilizations existed longer then 6000 years ago ? Scientists ?

So now you are going to trot out the "conspiracy" theory and say all "scientists" get it wrong?

The data says there were civilizations in India and Asia more than 6,000 years ago.

who says the pyramids of Giza were being built in the middle of the supposed global flood ? Scientists ?

Actually, the pyramids of Giza are after the time of the (non-existant) Flood. But the Egyptians left a written record (cut in stone and in papyri) of the lengths of the reigns of pharoahs from Cleopatra on back. All you have to do is go back in that record and you see that the Egyptians have a flourishing civiliazation that goes right thru the time of the Flood. If you learn to read the heiroglyphics, you can do the counting for yourself. The data is public knowledge.

Tell you what, i choose to believe God, you can believe men.

That's the fallacy, Dave. You don't believe God. Instead, you believe men who say that scriptures should be read literally. And these men, and you, are denying God. Remember, God has 2 books. Creation is more God's book than scripture. Men had to write the scriptures, but men didn't write Creation.

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave, I've only been alive for a couple of decades, but in that time I've prayerfully studied scriptures and been lead by hard study and by the Holy Spirit to an understanding of scripture that is consistant with God's revelation in creation. And yet my God-given understanding is different from yours.

Do you believe the Earth was created in 6 days, like Scriptures says it was, Yes or no ? If then you say Yes, then you believe God, if then you say No, because of your much learning, then you do not believe God, but believe your learnings. The Bible teaches that God created the Earth in 6 days, what do you teach ???? children can tell you how many days it took God to create the Earth, but leave it to the Learned and the Wise, to think otherwise.

You claim that God would shut you up if you preached something that was not from him -- why then did God not shut up a single one of his followers who preached geocentrism or even a flat earth? Do you claim that every single person who preached geocentrism on Biblical grounds was not lead to their understanding by God?

i know nothing about what this geocentrism is or even means, but as to the flat Earth, no person taught by the Holy Ghost would teach that it was flat, it clearly is not flat, and the Scriptures does not teach that it is flat.

You've just claimed that everything you've said is true because everything you've said is given directly by God. Perhaps we should save your writings and compile them as an addition to the canon! After all, since what you write is not your words but God's, it would be almost blasphemous NOT to include your writing in the Bible!

my writings are no different then that which is already written, therefore what i teach need not be added to the SCriptures. i teach the Earth was created in 6 days, and Lo Scriptures does too. why then would i need to add to SCriptures by saying that God created the Earth in 6 days, when Scriptures already says that. What i teach, and all that i teach, can be found in Scriptures, therefore i am teaching nothing New, but only teaching what Scriptures already say. If then i teach True Christians should not knowingly and willingly obey satan and commit sin, is that NEW, or does all of Scriptures teach that also. If then i taught something that is NEW, that is to say, not in SCriptures, then Yes that New thing, should be added, but i do not teach anything NEW, yet i know NEW things, that even Scriptures do not reveal, because He told me, Yet i do not teach on those matters, for they are NEW. Scriptures teach God created the Earth in 6 days, this i teach also, this is not NEW, but is Scriptural.

It's been quite a long while since I've corresponded with somebody who ascribed to the mystical Christianity that claims that when you use certain words or phrases, God gives you extra special power.

i know not what these mystical words or phrases that you are talking about, i only know what He has told me, and that is all.

I guess I wouldn't normally claim that it's evidence of my being right, but I do routinely ask God to teach me and lead me to change my understanding if it is in any way incorrect.

If this were True, then you would hear me, and understand, and know that what i say is True.

It seems that you're well past the point of correction and believe you have a perfect understanding of God and scripture.

Not because i have attained this on my own, nor from mine own studies, but only because it is what He has revealed unto me. Know you not that it is written, Ask and you shall recieve, believing it you shall recieve it ? What did David ask for ? Wisdom, did He then recieve it ? Yes. If then i ask God to reveal this to me, and He does, and i ask, reveal that to me, and He does, Why is it a great thing to have a perfect understanding of Scriptures, if one asks for it, and believes they will receive it. No mystery to me, it is what i did, and He did. God reveals to whom He reveals. As a child, after reading the entire Bible the third time, i sat on my bed crying ( literally crying ) to God, " why did you make this so difficult for me to understand, i am your child, you are my Father, and this is so confusing to me, help me understand " upon reading the entire Bible front to back the Fourth time, is when the Holy Ghost opened my eyes, and then soon after, Jesus speaking with me, concerning the things that He wanted me to do.

So then if i do have perfect understanding of Scriptures, it is not because of anything that i have done, but all because what He has revealed unto me, this is the only reason that i would have perfect understanding of Scriptures.

Maybe the Holy Spirit has indeed made your understanding perfect on all spiritual matters... or perhaps you have closed your mind to the truth by resting in the security that once you've decided you have all the answers, you can reject even the teaching of the Holy Spirit because if it conflicts with your current understanding, you know it must not be of Christ.

i am certain i have not all the answer, for there are many things that i did not ask,Him when i had the opportunity to ask Him, but what i know is suffecient enough to show people the narrow and difficult path that leads to righteousness, and this is the only thing that matters. Believing Scriptures is another thing that is important, if you do not believe one part of Scriptures, and that is accepted, then other parts can not be believed as well. How many people turned away from the Faith because of Scientists and what they teach, they have altogether lost Faith that Scriptures is True, based on what Scientists say is evidence. No, you have not turned away, but many have altogether turned away from the Faith because of that.

How can one teach the Bible is True and are the Words of God, yet say Genesis account of the creation of the Earth is untrue, without seeming to be a Hypocrite. Are the Words of God True or not, if then any part of the Words of God is NOT TRUE, then all of it is not True, it is false and should be counted as a false doctrine, IF any part of it is not True, but if all of it is True, then indeed it is the Words of God. Tell me, is any part of Gods Words wrong ? or Are all of God's Words right and correct ?
If there were something in His Word that was not True, Do you think He, our Father would allow it to remain, Would He not as our Father change it, so that His children are not misled by false doctrines.
Does not Jesus and His Disciples all teach, against false doctrines, if then there is something false in Scriptures, it should be counted as a false doctrine, But if all of it is True and Accurate, and it remains after 2000 years, still intact and unchanged, then i assure you it is by God that it has remained intact and unchanged.
The God i worship would not allow His Words to be wrong, or incorrect, He is God. Therefore if Scriptures teach that the Earth was created in 6 days, and God has not changed that teaching for 5000 years, nor rejected that teaching from ever being put into a Bible, Then i will believe it, because He is God and able to change every Bible in the entire World, if He so chooses to do so. i am His child, and i believe His Words even as a child, what it says is what i believe. What then, Did God create His Word, that only those who are learned can understand it, or did He create His Words that even children can understand it and be Saved. He is our Father, we are His children, and He loves us, and He made His Word for us to be easy to understand, that even children can understand, Howbeit, the learned think they must be such in order to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God. Instead of merely believing the Earth was created in 6 days ( like He said He did ) they go about to make up reasons why it was not created in 6 days, based on the evidence science shows us. They would have been better off to merely believe in Faith that it was created in 6 days, then to doubt it was because of what men say. Therefore children shall be there judges. Because they, through Faith, believe.

Just to play along and invoke those magical words that 'prove' you're right (because as you claim, God would silence you if you invoke his name in error):

In His precious and holy name, Jesus Christ.

Deamiter

i asked Jesus one time " Who will believe me? " He then told me, it is not for me to convince anyone of the Truth, but merely to teach the Truth, and by so doing, they who believe not the Truth will not have a cloke to hide their sins. Therefore i need not prove anything, nor is this my desire, but to teach the Truth that he taught me, this i do, and He is pleased.

Jn:15:22: If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

i teach the Truth, those who hear me, will not be able to stand before Jesus on Judgement Day and plead in ignorance that they did not know, for lo i have told them the Truth, and they have rejected it.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[Jase]

Tell me, who says civilizations existed longer then 6000 years ago ? Scientists ?

Um, everyone? There is written record of civilization going back farther than that.

who says the pyramids of Giza were being built in the middle of the supposed global flood ? Scientists ?

The Egyptian pyramids were built over a period of almost 1000 years, starting around 2900 B.C. According to YECs, the flood would have been what, about 2300 B.C.? The Egyptian pyramids weren't finished until after that date. We have written records from the Egyptians, as well as radiometric dating.

Tell you what, i choose to believe God, you can believe men.

Dave, please show me where in the Bible it says the Earth is 6,000 years old. The truth is it doesn't. You obtained that date based on MAN'S interpretation of the geneological records listed in the Bible. One man came up with the 6,000 year old claim, not the Bible. Man also translated and interpreted the Bible. The fact that you don't grasp the concept that when you read the Bible, you are automatically interpreting it, is rather disturbing. The Bible was written in ancient Hebrew and Greek. They do not always translate accurately into English. A verse in Hebrew could lead to a difference in meaning when translated into English. There is no such thing as a perfect translation.

Dave, obviously you think the entire world is one giant conspiracy and illusion made up by Satan to deceive us, so it's rather apparent absolutely nothing any other Christian tells you will have any impact on you, but think of this. If it's so important to you to stay true to God's "Word" and hold to a rigid, literal interpretation of the Bible, consider what impact that has on non-believers who listen to you. Do you seriously think non-believers will want to listen to you preach the gospel or talk about Christ when you hold such a ridiculously absurd view of the world and literalism? Do you not realize that you are doing a diservice to Christianity by holding such extreme views?

I can assure you from personal experience, rabid fundamentalism and literalism turns people away from Christ, not towards him.

 

[Jase]

Do you believe the Earth was created in 6 days, like Scriptures says it was, Yes or no ? If then you say Yes, then you believe God, if then you say No, because of your much learning, then you do not believe God, but believe your learnings. The Bible teaches that God created the Earth in 6 days, what do you teach ???? children can tell you how many days it took God to create the Earth, but leave it to the Learned and the Wise, to think otherwise.

The Bible never says the Earth was created in 6 24 hour days. You are trusting man if you believe such is the case.

i know nothing about what this geocentrism is or even means, but as to the flat Earth, no person taught by the Holy Ghost would teach that it was flat, it clearly is not flat, and the Scriptures does not teach that it is flat.

Geocentrism means the Earth is the center of the universe. And yes, a literal interpretation of the Bible teaches both geocentrism and a flat Earth. How dare you question the unfailing Word of God on such matters!

i know not what these mystical words or phrases that you are talking about, i only know what He has told me, and that is all.

I find it amazing that you have some supernatural, flawless link to God that no other human has been blessed with, and therefore you can never be wrong. Must be nice to be perfect Dave.

If this were True, then you would hear me, and understand, and know that what i say is True.

Why is True always capitalized? Forgive me if you just aren't a native English speaker, but all your posts seem to be written as though you are trying to act like an Apostle from the 1st century.

So then if i do have perfect understanding of Scriptures, it is not because of anything that i have done, but all because what He has revealed unto me, this is the only reason that i would have perfect understanding of Scriptures.

No one has perfect understanding of scripture.

i am certain i have not all the answer, for there are many things that i did not ask,Him when i had the opportunity to ask Him, but what i know is suffecient enough to show people the narrow and difficult path that leads to righteousness, and this is the only thing that matters. Believing Scriptures is another thing that is important, if you do not believe one part of Scriptures, and that is accepted, then other parts can not be believed as well. How many people turned away from the Faith because of Scientists and what they teach, they have altogether lost Faith that Scriptures is True, based on what Scientists say is evidence. No, you have not turned away, but many have altogether turned away from the Faith because of that.

Wow, all you have to do is ask him, and he will provide all of life's difficult questions for you? And Dave, since you hate science so much, why are you typing on a computer? A computer was built by scientists using the same method that disproved a 6,000 year old Earth.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave
Tell me, who says civilizations existed longer then 6000 years ago ? Scientists ?

So now you are going to trot out the "conspiracy" theory and say all "scientists" get it wrong?

No, i am just teaching that God said it right, that we should believe God over what all humans on the entire earth say and think.

The data says there were civilizations in India and Asia more than 6,000 years ago.

i see, so you choose to believe the DATA ( what humans say ) over the SCRIPTURES ( what God says ). Therefore you try to justify the evidence with the Scriptures, because the evidence is contrary to Scriptures something has got to be wrong, far be it from all the scientist being wrong, there are too many of them saying the same thing, let us say the SCriptures mean something other then it says, so both can be right. i choose to believe God and not all the scientists in the World, i believe through Faith, which is the basis of my Salvation.

Actually, the pyramids of Giza are after the time of the (non-existant) Flood.

So now we also see you do not believe Scriptures concerning the Flood. Scriptures say the flood happened, you don't believe, scientist says the flood never happened, this you believe. Scriptures say the Earth was created in 6 days, this you do not believe, scientist say the Earth was created in billions of years, this you believe, What part of Scriptures do you believe ? Do you believe Jesus Christ was the Son of the living God ? Scriptures teach that He was, is this a part of Scriptures that you do believe in? Tell me, what parts of the Scriptures should we believe and what parts should be ignore or throw out, or not believe?

But the Egyptians left a written record (cut in stone and in papyri) of the lengths of the reigns of pharoahs from Cleopatra on back. All you have to do is go back in that record and you see that the Egyptians have a flourishing civiliazation that goes right thru the time of the Flood. If you learn to read the heiroglyphics, you can do the counting for yourself. The data is public knowledge.

Whether or not this is True or not, i know not, but i know the flood took place because it is written that it did take place. Tell me, if the World was flooded,and then the water receded, would the heiroglyphs still be present? Was there people there in egypt before the flood, i know not, but probably, did they have heiroglyphs before the flood? i know not, but they probably did, and even after this flood, did it destroy the pyramids and the heiroglyphs? Probably not, they would still be there. Is it possible that after the flood people moved back into Egypt and continued on from there? i know not, but probably did.
What is funny is that every major culture in the World has a flood story, yet it never happened. lol
Believe God not men. It is no wonder you don't believe the flood, for if scientist say anything that is contrary to Scriptures, this you believe and not Scriptures, why is that?

That's the fallacy, Dave. You don't believe God. Instead, you believe men who say that scriptures should be read literally. And these men, and you, are denying God. Remember, God has 2 books. Creation is more God's book than scripture. Men had to write the scriptures, but men didn't write Creation.

i see, it does not surprise me at all, that you think mere men wrote the Bible, and not that they were inspired of God to write what they did write.

You say Creation is more God's book than Scriptures, and what doctrine is this, yours ? or scientists ? Because no where is Scriptures does it teach that, that is something humans use or believe, so they do not have to believe the Scriptures. Scriptures teach the Earth was created in 6 days, but because scientists say the Earth is billions of years old, you choose to believe them over what Scriptures teach, We are told not to judge by appearence, but you teach appearence of God's creation is more God's book than Scriptures. You are witness of yourself, that you believe those things that you see in nature and of the EArth, more then you believe the things of God. in this you do err.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[keyarch]

This is just as difficult to defend as Dave's view. You are aware that civilization has existed longer than 6,000 years right? In fact, the pre-dynastic Egyptians i believe existed earlier than that. The pinnacle of Ancient Egypt - the Pyramids of Giza were being built in the middle of the supposed Global flood.

I am defending what scripture says and what I believe while not getting into the "proofs" that you are illustrating.
In other words, when someone is saying that "the Bible says" the Earth is 6,000 years old, I have to say thats not true and argue it on a scriptural basis.

Now if one gets into the non-biblical arena, that's a whole other set of rules. When you offer up the evidence that you have, it would be nice to have at least one web link to some information to back up the claims. Also, the subject of dating methods would come into question. In other words, its good to know what assumptions are being made.

 

[DiscipleDave]

I find it amazing that you have some supernatural, flawless link to God that no other human has been blessed with, and therefore you can never be wrong. Must be nice to be perfect Dave.

Not i only, but all the Disciples did, Paul did, Moses did, many prophets of old did. and Lo you can too, if you believe He does. A person must first have faith, in order to hear Him, that is, a person must first believe that He does talk to people still, before He will speak with them, However He is able to speak to whomever He desires. But it is not His Fault, people do not believe He speaks with people any more, especially in these last days.

DiscipleDave said >>>i know not what these mystical words or phrases that you are talking about, i only know what He has told me, and that is all. <<<

Why is True always capitalized? Forgive me if you just aren't a native English speaker, but all your posts seem to be written as though you are trying to act like an Apostle from the 1st century.

i am what He called me to be.

No one has perfect understanding of scripture.

Unless He reveals it to you. Are you saying that if a person asks, they will not recieve. If a person says mountain remove, it shall be done, this is the kind of Faith that Jesus looks for, you too can have this Faith as well.

Jn:8:32: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

What? According to you, no one can know the Truth, or understand Scriptures.

Mt:21:22: And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Have you therefore asked Him to reveal to you the understanding of Scriptures, Oh, wait, you have to believe that He does, before He will, and as you have said " No one has perfect understanding of Scriptures " well if you believe that, then i assure you, that you will never have perfect understanding of Scriptures, But if you believe that you will get whatsoever you ask in the name of Christ, then it doesn't matter what you ask for, you will recieve it. i asked, and i believed, and i received.

Wow, all you have to do is ask him, and he will provide all of life's difficult questions for you?

Yes, now you are starting to understand, unless of coarse you are only being sarcastic.

And Dave, since you hate science so much, why are you typing on a computer? A computer was built by scientists using the same method that disproved a 6,000 year old Earth.

Who told you that i hate science ? satan has told you this, for i have never said no such thing, my favorite subject has always been science, i love science, and even have science magazines, Now listen carefully so you do not miss what i am about to say.
i only disagree with any science that contradicts Scriptures. Did you get that, i do not disagree with science, but only the science that contradict Scriptures, i know all about the speed of light, and einstein theories, and distances from stars, and how light works and travels, i love science, and computers, i fix people computers when they have problems, Whoever told you ( satan ) that i hate science has lied to you, therefore do not believe whoever told you this evil thing against me, for whoever told you that is evil, for they say things that are not True.

If it bothers you that i capitalize the T on True or Truth, talking with you i will cease if it offends you, i do not want you to be upset with me because of my capitalizing, i will cease if you so desire me to do so, but only with you, if you desire me to stop.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[gluadys]

Does Scriptures teach that God created the Earth in 6 days? yes or no?

Forgive me if I am making an incorrect assumption, but I believe the question you are really asking is "Does Scripture teach that God created the earth in 6 literal days?" And the answer is "No, scripture does not teach that the 6 days of the Genesis account were literal days."

Yes Scriptures do teach that He created the EArth in six days, this is Factual and is True, even to the point, that He tells us what He created on which particular Day.

It is True, but it is not necessarily factual. The idea that all truth must be factual in a scientific sense is a recent philosophical innovation and was not known when the bible was written.

Now Scientist teach the Earth is billions of years old, they teach this based on evidence that they SEE.

Yes, and there is nothing wrong with that. Who made the eye for seeing? Was it not God? Who made the evidence to be seen? Again, it was God. So if the eyes God made look at the evidence God made, what they see cannot be contrary to scripture.

If, when you read scripture, you perceive a conflict, the error must be in the way you read scripture. Evidence made by God and seen by the eyes God made cannot be in conflict with scripture. It can only be in conflict with an incorrect reading of scripture.

 

[gluadys]

This is easy, i believe God and what He says. Tell me, if you are able to do so, When Jesus created many fish from a few fishes, how old were those fishes ?????

As far as I know, and I have read the gospels many times, there is no record that speaks of Jesus creating many fish from a few fishes.


Perhaps you would like to give me a reference?

 

[Deamiter]

Do you believe the Earth was created in 6 days, like Scriptures says it was, Yes or no ?

False assumption -- scripture does not say that the Earth was created in six days any more than it says Jesus was a vine.

If then you say Yes, then you believe God, if then you say No, because of your much learning, then you do not believe God, but believe your learnings. The Bible teaches that God created the Earth in 6 days, what do you teach ???? children can tell you how many days it took God to create the Earth, but leave it to the Learned and the Wise, to think otherwise.

Funny how your interpretation of scripture is always presented as "what God believes." It's really too bad you're been sorely misinformed as to the meaning of "interpretation." Here's a hint -- when you recognize that Jesus is not actually a vine, you are interpreting scripture. Heck, even claiming that the Bible says the Earth was created in six days is interpreting scripture by definition. It really would be interesting to know if your first language is English, because you're misusing words like this and your lexical structure is outdated by a few centuries. It'd just help to know whether you're trying to copy some old translation of the Bible or if you're not a native speaker or what.

i know nothing about what this geocentrism is or even means, but as to the flat Earth, no person taught by the Holy Ghost would teach that it was flat, it clearly is not flat, and the Scriptures does not teach that it is flat.

Are you serious? Have you studied Martin Luther or Calvin or perhaps even a non-theologian like, oh say Copernicus? Have you heard of these people? Geocentrism was taught by the church for over a millenium after Jesus came and was assumed by the Hebrew authors -- it's hardly some random doctrine to be skipped over in a historical understanding of Christianity!

my writings are no different then that which is already written, therefore what i teach need not be added to the SCriptures. i teach the Earth was created in 6 days, and Lo Scriptures does too. why then would i need to add to SCriptures by saying that God created the Earth in 6 days, when Scriptures already says that. What i teach, and all that i teach, can be found in Scriptures, therefore i am teaching nothing New, but only teaching what Scriptures already say. If then i teach True Christians should not knowingly and willingly obey satan and commit sin, is that NEW, or does all of Scriptures teach that also. If then i taught something that is NEW, that is to say, not in SCriptures, then Yes that New thing, should be added, but i do not teach anything NEW, yet i know NEW things, that even Scriptures do not reveal, because He told me, Yet i do not teach on those matters, for they are NEW. Scriptures teach God created the Earth in 6 days, this i teach also, this is not NEW, but is Scriptural.

Well, your teaching certainly isn't unique, but to interpret scripture as you have is far from the truth. Also, unless you're German, you really don't have to capitalize every noun... and I don't have a clue where all those other capitals would come from. It'd be a whole lot easier to read if you'd write in conventional English.

i know not what these mystical words or phrases that you are talking about, i only know what He has told me, and that is all.

It's pure Gnosticism brother -- you've claimed directly that because you use the phrase "In his precious and holy name, Jesus Christ" your words are perfect and you cannot be wrong. In case you haven't heard of this (another part of historical Christianity) it was a bit of a fringe group that held that God would give out special knowledge to those who followed him that was unattainable to others. It was soundly crushed as a heresy though it pops up now and again in various forms.

If this were True, then you would hear me, and understand, and know that what i say is True.

How humble -- if I were right then I would agree with you because you cannot be wrong... If you were speaking truth, then you would hear me and understand and agree that what I say is true.

i am certain i have not all the answer, for there are many things that i did not ask,Him when i had the opportunity to ask Him, but what i know is suffecient enough to show people the narrow and difficult path that leads to righteousness, and this is the only thing that matters. Believing Scriptures is another thing that is important, if you do not believe one part of Scriptures, and that is accepted, then other parts can not be believed as well.

Of course, I believe all of scriptures, I just don't accept your failed interpretation of scriptures. I believe all of scripture and that all of it is true as well, but you've apparently latched onto a fallable human interpretation that says Genesis 1 means 6 literal days and there you have erred gravely.

How many people turned away from the Faith because of Scientists and what they teach, they have altogether lost Faith that Scriptures is True, based on what Scientists say is evidence. No, you have not turned away, but many have altogether turned away from the Faith because of that.

Again, by denying God's revelation in creation, you drive people away from Christ. As St. Augustine said hundreds of years ago,

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men.... Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by these who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.

How can one teach the Bible is True and are the Words of God, yet say Genesis account of the creation of the Earth is untrue, without seeming to be a Hypocrite.

Ah, but now you're twisting my words. I believe the Genesis account of creation is 100% true. It is simply not factual. It's just like saying, "Jesus is the vine" is true and not factual. It's really not a very difficult concept here.

Are the Words of God True or not, if then any part of the Words of God is NOT TRUE, then all of it is not True, it is false and should be counted as a false doctrine,
... <snipped rant based on the assumption that true equals factual> ...

i asked Jesus one time " Who will believe me? " He then told me, it is not for me to convince anyone of the Truth, but merely to teach the Truth, and by so doing, they who believe not the Truth will not have a cloke to hide their sins. Therefore i need not prove anything, nor is this my desire, but to teach the Truth that he taught me, this i do, and He is pleased.

i teach the Truth, those who hear me, will not be able to stand before Jesus on Judgement Day and plead in ignorance that they did not know, for lo i have told them the Truth, and they have rejected it.

Did you seriously just say "lo?" Anyway, it's funny how God has told me the same thing! Except that God doesn't tell me to ignore his creation -- neither in the Bible nor in my daily communing with him. Funny how you seem to have latched onto such unbiblical ideas that were spoken against hundreds of years ago (i.e. by Augustine above). I suppose its your blind faith in your own understanding of scripture -- it is sad to see people so badly misrepresent scripture and to claim to be infallable in interpretation, but there's always SOMEBODY out there doing it.

 

[jeffweeder]

The Egyptian pyramids were built over a period of almost 1000 years, starting around 2900 B.C. According to YECs, the flood would have been what, about 2300 B.C.? The Egyptian pyramids weren't finished until after that date. We have written records from the Egyptians, as well as radiometric dating.

I think you will find the catasrophic flood was before the 1st dynasty.
Some scholars link MENES-Mena, the 1st king, is Hams son Mizraim.
The pyramid building craze reached its peak in the 4th dynasty.

Encyclopedia Brittanica says;
the brain power that went into the pyramids-(cheops), is as great as that of any modern man.

Their grandfather could build ships too

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Aside from taste, which one can duplicate in a lab without any real grapes or any other traditional eliments of wine making at all, what gave this wine any appearance of age?

Was it in old bottles? No it was in water jugs.
Did someone remember stamping the grapes? No.
Did someone remember selling it to Jesus? No.

Taste can easily be mimiced, and that is all that was mentioned about the wine, its taste.

How do you get any argument about age from that?