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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Help needed! What is Faith?
- Thread starter SonOfSophroniscus
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Sojourner<><
Incoherent Freedom Fighter
When it comes to being faithful? Oh I would say obedience and integrity are the qualities of a faithful person.
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That is interesting since the Bible says we should obey the commandments of the Law.
To obey is to conform or comply with. That can be a person or thing you are conforming to or complying with.
Faith is obedience to truth and your mistaken presumptions do not change that fact.
Perhaps that is why eternal life will be given to those who obey the truth.
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Sojourner<><
Incoherent Freedom Fighter
No offense, but that's a works-based theory of salvation. The Gospel simply states that all who believe on Christ will receive eternal life. Christ goes on to say that if you love Him you will obey Him. They appear to be two separate things.
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Sojourner<><
Incoherent Freedom Fighter
That being said, I think it's important to realize that Christ fulfilled the law. It's His Spirit that we receive through faith. Obedience flows outwardly from His Spirit so that those who believe should become more obedient than they normally would be without His Spirit dwelling within them. When our salvation is complete and we are completely conformed into His image, we will also be completely obedient just as He is.
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Our Truth is Christ.
Obey Him your Truth or you will not be inheriting Eternal Life anytime soon.
Read Romans 2:6-11 in your spare time.
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Sojourner<><
Incoherent Freedom Fighter
What about Rahab the harlot. She was exalted in the letter to the Hebrews as an example of saving faith. Do you think that it was her obedience that saved her? If so may be we should become harlots.
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Doesn't say anything about Rahab being saved.
Perhaps you should start over with a correct premise.
Refer to James 2 perhaps?
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Sojourner<><
Incoherent Freedom Fighter
Romans 2:14,15 follows with:
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
This is exactly what I was talking about
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Sojourner<><
Incoherent Freedom Fighter
A key phrase here is: "their conscience also bearing witness". When a believer obeys according to their faith, they bear witness of that faith. As I was saying, faith on Christ saves us. Obedience bears witness and flows outwardly from our faith. Obedience itself doesn't save us, but that's not to say that we should be disobedient.
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Sojourner<><
Incoherent Freedom Fighter
I'm not. No offense, but you're missing my point. Obedience does not save us, faith in Christ does. Like I said before, that does not mean that we can or should be disobedient.
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To obey requires obedience, being obedient to, a thing. Your statement regarding 'conforming or compliance with' is incompatible with your 'obedience to 2+2=4' argument earlier. No one conforms, or complies with 2+2=4 - 2+2=4 is. Compliance or conformity are not necessary conditions for its existence or veracity.
Well, I have already demolished this definiens, but since you persist let me try another tack. With my earlier assertion that one cannot speak of a thing which does not know, answer this:
What is the truth, and how do we recognise the truth of a thing?
Well, I have already demolished this definiens, but since you persist let me try another tack. With my earlier assertion that one cannot speak of a thing which does not know, answer this:
What is the truth, and how do we recognise the truth of a thing?
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I expected this, so - Is it true that the truth is God's word because God said so?
edit: and this only answers my first question.
edit: and this only answers my first question.
Truth is God's word.
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What! Do you mean that God can surpass even logic?
What if God says nothing about a particular action, what are we to use as a measuring device to see whether this thing is true or not?
What if God says nothing about a particular action, what are we to use as a measuring device to see whether this thing is true or not?
The truth of a thing is recognized by if it lines up with what God's word says.
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Optimax
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Logic is what God says.
If a person compares what God says to what they think is logic, and they are not the same, guess who is lacking. I will give you a hint. It is not God. It is the persons understanding that needs help.
The word covers everything except questions like what is Gods plan for my life. However, by reading the word combined with prayer God revels that to us.
The measuring device is not the physical senses.
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Is God then bound by his own word, or not? The all-powerful exerting authority over the all-powerful, it would seem
This begs the question. As we are agreed, circularity is fallacious. I don't think anyone would disagree that 'God's word is truth because God says it is' is of a piece with such reasoning, it would be more along the lines of -
If God says something then it's true
God says something
Therefore, it's true
It's an odd thing, you saying this. Because if God knows what you are going to do before you do it, you do not do it freely because God has knowledge of it before your doing it. His *knowing* is sufficient to exclude any possibility of free will.
Since you seem to know what it isn't, perhaps you could instead tell me what it is?
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