Co-Redeemer?

[Asinner]

Mary was a virgin at Jesus birth, we agree on that. What I don't understand is why you claim a married woman having sex with her husband would be defiled?

I never said defiled.

 

[Mobiosity]

I never said defiled.

Sure you did: Post 578

the Church teaches that Mary was undefiled.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Sorry UB, it is not the same. It is not me and my bible. It used to be. My husband used to preach and teach adult bible study before we became Orthodox. One thing that made him restless, was the fact that he could make the Holy Scriptures mean whatever he wanted them to. I do not attempt to understand the Holy Scriptures outside of the Church. I read them for edification. You make your own assumptions when you claim that Mary and Joseph had relations and she had other children. Nowhere does it state that Jesus' brothers and sisters were Mary's children. When her and Joseph went looking for Christ at age 12 and found Him in the temple, there is no mention of other children. The fact that Christ gave Mary to John, is a strong argument that Mary had no other children. Her response to Gabriel is a strong argument for her vowed virginity. The OT prophesies of Mary, ect. ect. ect. So, you see, it is not obvious that Mary and Joseph had relations! Not in the least. Jesus' siblings were Joseph's children from a previous marriage as Holy Tradition says. Please be careful to continually bear false witness against the Theotokos. To do it in ignorance is one thing, but to continually insist, even after being shown the Church's teaching on this and those of the Protestant reformers, repeatedly, is waivering into territory I find spiritually dangerous. Please, Uphill Battle! Stop with this incessant slander of the Theotokos. It is scandalous at best.

Love,
Christina

look up what Slander means, please.

 

[Asinner]

Is the King James Version old enough for you?

1. Matthew 1:16
   And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
2. Matthew 1:18
   Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
3. Matthew 1:20
   But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

What language was the NT written in? Greek, correct? What is the national religion of Greece? I'll give you a hint . . . it is not protestant.

There is some difficulty in language when Greek is translated into the English. I think you may be surprised at some of the inconsistencies. One Greek man, Repentant, was trying to tell you yesterday that the word used for wife is different in the original language. Besides that, if it is still just you and your Greek bible, you will be rendering the account still with your passions. Until you have done away with your passions, a lifetime struggle and few attain this, you will be passionate when you read the Holy Scriptures! Approaching them in all Humility with Purity of Heart has been done in the first centuries of Christendom and continues up 'till today. There is no need to create doctrine or dogma or try and figure out the Bible. It has already been done for you! Many of these early Church fathers walked with some of the 12 Apostles, those taught by Christ themselves. Why would you not trust these men who walked with the Apostles, many who were tortured and suffered mercilessly for the Faith, to point you to the Truth? The first step is knowing we are passionate, knowing we are sinful. The next step is Obedience. Obedience to the Truth, no matter the cost.

Love,
Christina

 

[IamAdopted]

What language was the NT written in? Greek, correct? What is the national religion of Greece? I'll give you a hint . . . it is not protestant.

There is some difficulty in language when Greek is translated into the English. I think you may be surprised at some of the inconsistencies. One Greek man, Repentant, was trying to tell you yesterday that the word used for wife is different in the original language. Besides that, if it is still just you and your Greek bible, you will be rendering the account still with your passions. Until you have done away with your passions, a lifetime struggle and few attain this, you will be passionate when you read the Holy Scriptures! Approaching them in all Humility with Purity of Heart has been done in the first centuries of Christendom and continues up 'till today. There is no need to create doctrine or dogma or try and figure out the Bible. It has already been done for you! Many of these early Church fathers walked with some of the 12 Apostles, those taught by Christ themselves. Why would you not trust these men who walked with the Apostles, many who were tortured and suffered mercilessly for the Faith, to point you to the Truth? The first step is knowing we are passionate, knowing we are sinful. The next step is Obedience. Obedience to the Truth, no matter the cost.

Love,
Christina

God is not a religion.. He is Spirit. This is why we are to be born of the Spirit. There are always excuses with these beliefs of yours. Either the greek can't be translated correctly or this word doesn't mean what it says or something. I don't think that God really takes these excuses to heart for the Lord says that man is without excuse.. We are responsable on how we build on the word of God..

 

[Mobiosity]

What language was the NT written in? Greek, correct? What is the national religion of Greece? I'll give you a hint . . . it is not protestant.

There is some difficulty in language when Greek is translated into the English. I think you may be surprised at some of the inconsistencies. One Greek man, Repentant, was trying to tell you yesterday that the word used for wife is different in the original language. Besides that, if it is still just you and your Greek bible, you will be rendering the account still with your passions. Until you have done away with your passions, a lifetime struggle and few attain this, you will be passionate when you read the Holy Scriptures! Approaching them in all Humility with Purity of Heart has been done in the first centuries of Christendom and continues up 'till today. There is no need to create doctrine or dogma or try and figure out the Bible. It has already been done for you! Many of these early Church fathers walked with some of the 12 Apostles, those taught by Christ themselves. Why would you not trust these men who walked with the Apostles, many who were tortured and suffered mercilessly for the Faith, to point you to the Truth? The first step is knowing we are passionate, knowing we are sinful. The next step is Obedience. Obedience to the Truth, no matter the cost.

Love,
Christina

The Holy Spirit points out to me what He needs me to learn when I read the bible. He is a much truer guide than anything any man has written. If it was correct, it would be scripture. If it is extra-biblical or extra-scriptural it is open to error.

 

[Asinner]

Sure you did: Post 578

Mary being undefiled through virginity, does not then mean marital relations are defiled. I stated this in one of my first posts. What it does mean though, is that after having marital relations, one is no longer physically Pure as the angels are. One can still attain spiritual Purity, but it is more difficult. Most of the those in the Church who have attained spiritual Purification and perfection were celibate. John the Baptist and Paul are two that come to mind immediately, but I know there are others mentioned in the Holy Scriptures. Most of those who lived after and received theosis, were also celibate. The reasons why should be obvious. Without outside worldly cares, one can devote themselves fully to God. There are many monks and ascetics who attest to this. Again, it is simply a higher callling. It is not saying that marital relations are bad in any way.

Love,
Christina

 

[Uphill Battle]

and again I ask... did God endorse deception?

 

[Asinner]

look up what Slander means, please.

Questioning her Purity is one thing. We all question our Faith and what we believe. To continually state over and over again, that she had other children (relations with Joseph), is slander because it maligns her character. She was the mother of God. Please go and find something else to question. To me, this one should not be touched with a ten-foot pole.

Love,
Christina

 

[sunlover1]

What it does mean though, is that after having marital relations, one is no longer physically Pure as the angels are.

Can you show us where this concept is
taught by the Bible or even early
church fathers?

One can still attain spiritual Purity, but it is more difficult

.
And this too.

Thank you,
sunlover

 

[Uphill Battle]

Questioning her Purity is one thing. We all question our Faith and what we believe. To continually state over and over again, that she had other children (relations with Joseph), is slander because it maligns her character. She was the mother of God. Please go and find something else to question. To me, this one should not be touched with a ten-foot pole.

Love,
Christina

I don't question her purity.

I don't believe that a wife having sex with her husband makes her unpure.

Slander is willfully false. I am saying nothing willfully false, I truly do not believe that she remained an ever virgin. Like it or not, anyone who picks up the bible and reads it (without slapping RCC or EO glasses on their faces first) would likely believe the same from the text that we have.

This is not a defemation of character. It's straightforward READING. And yes, I do believe that even though the language was different, the meaning is conveyed.

I don't have to do mental gymnastics to come up with what I believe, it's written down.

Stop accusing people of slander and character defemation, just because you don't like what they have to say.

 

[Mobiosity]

Questioning her Purity is one thing. We all question our Faith and what we believe. To continually state over and over again, that she had other children (relations with Joseph), is slander because it maligns her character. She was the mother of God. Please go and find something else to question. To me, this one should not be touched with a ten-foot pole.

Love,
Christina

You are so far off base with this. She had sex with her husband. This does not malign her character. Some may say she didn't have sex, but since neither she nor Joseph said anything one way or the other (and they are the only ones this side of Heaven who know whether they did or not and I'm sure none of the early church fathers examined her hymen you are speculating about something that you have been taught. Much repeating may make it seem like the truth, and saying it loudly (in caps) may make it seem like the truth; the fact is YOU DO NOT KNOW. And accusing someone of slander is abysmal behavior on your part, you should apologize.

 

[Asinner]

I don't question her purity.

I don't believe that a wife having sex with her husband makes her unpure.

Of course it does! Physically it does! It is so sad. Virginity no longer has any meaning. To remain unknown by any man, to never know physical intimacy is to remain innocent. On the other hand, to know a man, to know carnal pleasures, to have sexual desires, ect . . . is to lose one's innocence. As parents, do we not try and preserve our children's innocence for as long as possible? Especially in these days of depravity.

Slander is willfully false. I am saying nothing willfully false, I truly do not believe that she remained an ever virgin. Like it or not, anyone who picks up the bible and reads it (without slapping RCC or EO glasses on their faces first) would likely believe the same from the text that we have.

You have been told on a number of occasions that your interpretation is false. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church and those who protested the Catholic Church and thusly began the reformation, say that you are wrong.

This is not a defemation of character. It's straightforward READING. And yes, I do believe that even though the language was different, the meaning is conveyed.

I don't have to do mental gymnastics to come up with what I believe, it's written down.

You interpret with your passions. Are you void of passions? If not, then you are reading with Uphill Battle sunglasses.

Stop accusing people of slander and character defemation, just because you don't like what they have to say.

What I have said to you has not been said accusingly, but with love. Perhaps I have come across unlovingly, accusatory, prideful . . . for this I am sorry. I am passionate and filled with the passions. I love the Mother of God and will defend her. That is what you see. I would do the same for any of my brothers or sisters who were being slandered.

Love,
Christina

 

[sunlover1]

Of course it does! Physically it does! It is so sad. Virginity no longer has any meaning. To remain unknown by any man, to never know physical intimacy is to remain innocent. On the other hand, to know a man, to know carnal pleasures, to have sexual desires, ect . . . is to lose one's innocence. As parents, do we not try and preserve our children's innocence for as long as possible? Especially in these days of depravity.

I see you feel strongly about this, If you
could answer my post here that got
missed it might help us understand
your POV better

thank you,
sunlover

 

[Asinner]

Can you show us where this concept is
taught by the Bible or even early
church fathers?
.
And this too.

Thank you,
sunlover

Oooops. Didn't mean to miss this, Sunlover.

Be back in a little while.

Love,
Christina

 

[sunlover1]

Oooops. Didn't mean to miss this, Sunlover.

Be back in a little while.

Love,
Christina

Yeah, it got buried, but
NO rush Christina,
take all the time you want.

love,
sunlover

 

[Asinner]

Sunlover, here are some quotes from the ECF's. There is much, much more, including Paul's admonition in 1 Cor 7, to "remain even as I".

After the disobedience, after the banishment from Paradise, then it was that married life began. Before the disobedience, the first people lived like angels, and there was no talk of cohabitation. And how could this be, when they were free of bodily needs? Thus, in the beginning life was virginal; but when, because of the carelessness (of the first people) disobedience appeared and sin entered the world, virginity fled away from them, since they had become unworthy of such a great good, and in its place there entered into effect the law of married life:-St. John Chrysostom





Virginity was practiced in Paradise… After the fall... to keep the race from dwindling and being destroyed by death, marriage was devised, so that by the begetting of children the race of men might be preserved.- St. John Damascene




Let no one think that we depreciate marriage as an institution. We are well aware that it is not a stranger to God's blessing… But our view of marriage is this: that, while the pursuit of heavenly things should be a man's first care, yet if he can use the advantages of marriage with sobriety and moderation, he need not despise this way of serving the state.. .. Marriage is the last stage of our separation from the life that was led in Paradise; marriage is the first thing to be left; it is the first station, as it were, for our departure to Christ.
-St. Gregory of Nyssa




Love,
Christina

 

[Asinner]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf210.iv.vii.i.html

Excerpt from:

In the first book he treats of the dignity of Virginity, and states his reason for writing. As he commences his addresses on the anniversary of the martyrdom of St. Agnes, he takes her story as the subject of the earlier part of the treatise, and shows how, amongst the Jews, and even amongst the heathen, the grace of virginity was shadowed forth, and eventually proclaimed by the corning of our Lord. He then warns parents, especially widows, not to prevent their daughters from hearing addresses on this subject, and touches on the number of those who came even from great distances to receive the veil at Milan.
In the second book, speaking of the character and manner of life of virgins, he does this, as he says, by adducing examples and instances, preferably to laying down a code of rules. He speaks of Thecla, patron saint of Milan, a disciple of St. Paul, and of other virgins.
In the third book he goes through a summary of the address given by Pope Liberius, when Marcellina received the veil at his hands, before a large congregation. Some 362cautions are introduced by St. Ambrose against excessive austerity, and instead of some outward acts, prayer and the practice of interior virtues are recommended. The subject of certain virgins who had committed suicide rather than lose their chastity is dwelt upon in answer to a question of Marcellina.
The writer himself states that this treatise was composed in the third year of his episcopate, a.d. 377, and it is quoted with approval by St. Jerome, Ep. XXII. 22 and XLVIII. 14 [Vol. VI., pp. 31 and 75, of this series, and St. Augustine, de doct. Christ. IV. 48, 50.

 

[sunlover1]

Sunlover, here are some quotes from the ECF's. There is much, much more, including Paul's admonition in 1 Cor 7, to "remain even as I".

After the disobedience, after the banishment from Paradise, then it was that married life began. Before the disobedience, the first people lived like angels, and there was no talk of cohabitation. And how could this be, when they were free of bodily needs? Thus, in the beginning life was virginal; but when, because of the carelessness (of the first people) disobedience appeared and sin entered the world, virginity fled away from them, since they had become unworthy of such a great good, and in its place there entered into effect the law of married life:-St. John Chrysostom





Virginity was practiced in Paradise… After the fall... to keep the race from dwindling and being destroyed by death, marriage was devised, so that by the begetting of children the race of men might be preserved.- St. John Damascene




Let no one think that we depreciate marriage as an institution. We are well aware that it is not a stranger to God's blessing… But our view of marriage is this: that, while the pursuit of heavenly things should be a man's first care, yet if he can use the advantages of marriage with sobriety and moderation, he need not despise this way of serving the state.. .. Marriage is the last stage of our separation from the life that was led in Paradise; marriage is the first thing to be left; it is the first station, as it were, for our departure to Christ.
-St. Gregory of Nyssa




Love,
Christina

Those are interesting Christina.
WOW that was fast!

It seems like they're implying that marriage
wasn't the intention of God to begin
with, but yet He did create our bodies
right from the beginning for reproduction.
So this is all kind of odd isnt it?

See what the Bible said:

Genesis 1:26-28
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,
after our likeness:
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air,
and over the cattle,
and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them,
and God said unto them,
Be fruitful,
and multiply,
and replenish the earth,
and subdue it:

So according to the Bible, it was indeed
Gods first desire, not something after
the fall.
Or did I read that wrong?

sunlover

 

[Asinner]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf103.v.iii.html


From:

"Whereas, therefore, the whole Church itself is a virgin espoused unto one Husband Christ,"

Here, Augustine says the Church is a virgin, even though she is married to Christ.

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