Just what is satan capable of. 2 Cor 11

[simonthezealot]

II Cor. 11:

13
For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ.
14
And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.
15
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

masquerades - (metaschematizo - disguised).

Satan does not appear with horns and a pitchfork. That disquise would decieve no one.

I truly believe the visions of Fatima are one clear example of Satan disquised as a vision of an angel, from the stand point that the message forwarded their did not promote the Gospel of Jesus Christ or the same path to salvation as Holy Scripture does.

Your thoughts?

 

[simonthezealot]

I don't believe in Fatima. Can I find Scripture to support my disbelief?

Did not Jesus say . . .
Mat 24:23
If anyone says to you then, 'Look, here is the Messiah!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.
24
False messiahs and false prophets will arise, and they will perform signs and wonders so great as to deceive, if that were possible, even the elect.
25
Behold, I have told it to you beforehand.
26
So if they say to you, 'He is in the desert,' do not go out there; if they say, 'He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
27
For just as lightning comes from the east and is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

 

[Bubba1301]

Though I don't know anything about the visions mentioned above, I do believe that Satan disguises himself as goodness in order to deceive... coming with the face of evil would be too easy to reject and identify him for who he is.

 

[Knowledge3]

Scripture is Scripture.

 

[Spence06]

You can tell a tree by its fruits.

You would have to see how Fatima and those events affected people and continue to affect. Either they bring people to God or not. If the fruit is bad, then the tree is bad.

 

[Tyndale]

II Cor. 11:

13
For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ.
14
And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.
15
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

masquerades - (metaschematizo - disguised).

Satan does not appear with horns and a pitchfork. That disquise would decieve no one.

I truly believe the visions of Fatima are one clear example of Satan disquised as a vision of an angel, from the stand point that the message forwarded their did not promote the Gospel of Jesus Christ or the same path to salvation as Holy Scripture does.

Your thoughts?

We will never know for sure. It's one instance where Mary was recognised as the messenger, the identification of Mary was achieved because she resembled the Mary of renaissance paintings. There was immediately an area of mystique about the affair because the Vatican took charge over the issue and published 2 of the prophecies, while keeping the 3rd a secret.

It still remains doubtful that the first two prophecies even came true. They are so cryptic that it's hard to tell if they were referring to Russia and the Popes shooting

 

[simonthezealot]

How to identify, it's validity. See Scripture below.

Fatima does no such thing! at least that I am aware of.

1 john 4:2-3
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

 

[Trento]

How to identify, it validity.

Fatima does no such thing! at least that I am aware of.

1 john 4:2-3
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Here is a link to a good site to get you up to speed on the core issues http://www.fatima.org.

The first question that comes to mind is, was there even a real spiritual apparition involved here? Did anything or anyone appear to these children? Being these children were not on drugs, were respectable citizens, were consistent in story and behavior etc I think we have to conclude that there was indeed a spiritual being of some sort that appeared to them. I think anyone that looks with an open mind at the facts of the situation would have to come to the same conclusion.
The second question then becomes, was this spirit being from heaven or from hell? I look at the core of the message from the being to help decipher where the being is from. What is the core message? Repent from sin and turn to Jesus. Is that a message that a being from hell would pronounce? I don’t think so. The being is most probably from heaven. I can't see any other conclusion.
Who is this spirit being? Well, who does she say that she is? She says that she is Mary, the mother of Jesus. If she is a Spirit being from heaven I guess we should believe who she says she is.
It is obvious to me you need to do more thinking on this final point but I think it is also obvious that it would be silly to disregard Fatima out of hand.

Just a try to be intellectually honest.

 

[simonthezealot]

Here is a link to a good site to get you up to speed on the core issues http://www.fatima.org.

The first question that comes to mind is, was there even a real spiritual apparition involved here? Did anything or anyone appear to these children? Being these children were not on drugs, were respectable citizens, were consistent in story and behavior etc I think we have to conclude that there was indeed a spiritual being of some sort that appeared to them. I think anyone that looks with an open mind at the facts of the situation would have to come to the same conclusion.
The second question then becomes, was this spirit being from heaven or from hell? I look at the core of the message from the being to help decipher where the being is from. What is the core message? Repent from sin and turn to Jesus. Is that a message that a being from hell would pronounce? I don’t think so. The being is most probably from heaven. I can't see any other conclusion.
Who is this spirit being? Well, who does she say that she is? She says that she is Mary, the mother of Jesus. If she is a Spirit being from heaven I guess we should believe who she says she is.
It is obvious to me you need to do more thinking on this final point but I think it is also obvious that it would be silly to disregard Fatima out of hand.

Just a try to be intellectually honest.

From your link, 2nd message...

Text of Second Part of Secret

To save them [poor sinners who are on the road to hell], God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.

Trento do you know something I don't because it certainly appears to give a different salvation message than the one I have read in Holy Scripture.
​

 

[simonthezealot]

From your link, 2nd message...


Text of Second Part of Secret

To save them [poor sinners who are on the road to hell], God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.​

Compared to...
1 john 4:2-3
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Compared to...
1 john 4:2-3
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Of course, nowhere in the Fatima appariations, are there claims...that Jesus is not from God...so your point is moot.

 

[Boniface]

Not to mention the fact that Catholics are NOT required to believe the apparitions, nor do they change/affect the dogma's or doctrine's of Holy Mother Church.

 

[Tyndale]

Not to mention the fact that Catholics are NOT required to believe the apparitions, nor do they change/affect the dogma's or doctrine's of Holy Mother Church.

I find this hard to believe. Mary was said to appear at the:

The Apparitions at Fatima (1916-1917)

The Apparitions at Pontevedra (1925-1926)

The Apparition at Tuy (1929)


Following these apparitions of Mary, in the year 1931 pope Pius XI, reaffirmed the doctrine that Mary is "the Mother of God". This doctrine was first invented by the Council of Ephesus in the year 431.

Also In the year 1950 the last dogma was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII, the Assumption of the Virgin Mary

 

[simonthezealot]

Of course, nowhere in the Fatima appariations, are there claims...that Jesus is not from God...so your point is moot.

The points are not moot whatsoever...
The imagery seen in the vision requested people to pray to the immaculate heart of Mary and souls would be saved from HELL is that how Christ said we could achieve salvation?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Compared to...
1 john 4:2-3
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

This is a GROSS misuse of scripture.

This scripture specifically is to counter the GNOSTICS who said that Jesus did not come in the flesh, in other words, Jesus did not have real flesh, for (according to them) flesh was evil and a spirit from the good realm could never join itself to real flesh. They taught that Jesus only looked like He had flesh, like he was a man, but that he really wasn't.

And this is not speaking of spirits from the spirit realm, but of men - this is made clear by John's referrence to prophets (who are men).

Here is another translation which brings across what John was actually communicating with his words:

1Jo 4:1 Dear friends, don't believe everyone who claims to have the Spirit of God. Test them all to find out if they really do come from God. Many false prophets have already gone out into the world,
1Jo 4:2 and you can know which ones come from God. His Spirit says that Jesus Christ had a truly human body.
​

This was a test to use against the gnostics who said Jesus did not really have a human body.


So, your application of this scripture, STRIPPED of its proper context, to spiritual apparitions at Fatima is erroneous. There is nothing in this scripture that demands that every time a supernatural apperance of an angel or other spirit they must confirm that Jesus came in the flesh. This is YOUR misuse of scripture, nothing more.


.

 

[simonthezealot]

Why did this get moved to this thread, I posed no question about Mary?

 

[thereselittleflower]

I find this hard to believe. Mary was said to appear at the:

The Apparitions at Fatima (1916-1917)

The Apparitions at Pontevedra (1925-1926)

The Apparition at Tuy (1929)

OK, thank you for sharing your opinion. . . . .

I don't share it . . .

Following these apparitions of Mary, in the year 1931 pope Pius XI, reaffirmed the doctrine that Mary is "the Mother of God". This doctrine was first invented by the Council of Ephesus in the year 431.

Also In the year 1950 the last dogma was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII, the Assumption of the Virgin Mary

Your understanding of history is not quite accurate.

The doctrine of Mary mother of God was not "invented" by the Council of Ephesus in 431. It was an already existing doctrine that was proclaimed dogma. . nothing was "invented".


.

 

[simonthezealot]

This is a GROSS misuse of scripture.

This scripture specifically is to counter the GNOSTICS who said that Jesus did not come in the flesh, in other words, Jesus did not have real flesh, for (according to them) flesh was evil and a spirit from the good realm could never join itself to real flesh. They taught that Jesus only looked like He had flesh, like he was a man, but that he really wasn't.

And this is not speaking of spirits from the spirit realm, but of men - this is made clear by John's referrence to prophets (who are men).


Here is another translation which brings across what John was actually communicating with his words:

1Jo 4:1 Dear friends, don't believe everyone who claims to have the Spirit of God. Test them all to find out if they really do come from God. Many false prophets have already gone out into the world,​

1Jo 4:2 and you can know which ones come from God. His Spirit says that Jesus Christ had a truly human body. ​

This was a test to use against the gnostics who said Jesus did not really have a human body.


So, your application of this scripture, STRIPPED of its proper context, to spiritual apparitions at Fatima is erroneous. There is nothing in this scripture that demands that every time a supernatural apperance of an angel or other spirit they must confirm that Jesus came in the flesh. This is YOUR misuse of scripture, nothing more.


.

Are you saying that John telling how to test spirits is not applicable today?
Give me a break!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Why did this get moved to this thread, I posed no question about Mary?

No . . you attacked Mary, claiming what was sent by and through the power of the Holy Spirit to actually be from satan!





Do you remember Jesus' warning to people who accused Him of casting out demons by the power of satan? He warned them about the dire consequences of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

When one claims that something that was done by the power of the Holy Spirit was actually done by satan, one comes periously close to doing what Jesus warned against. . . .


You are walking on very thin ice. . . . . .


.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Are you saying that John telling how to test spirits is not applicable today?
Give me a break!

When you run into people who claim Jesus did not really come in the flesh, but was merely a spirit being taking on the appearance of flesh, then it is applicable.


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