Is Mary a source of Holiness?

[FrauleinElsa]

fair enough. But in our disagreement with RCC over Marian theology, let's not forget truth.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=32025160#post32025160

Uh... I haven't. But thanks. I think I'm old enough to know what is and isn't true. I don't care what others believe. It only matters if I have peace about what I believe. L&L. Live and Let Live.

 

[sunlover1]

I have to respectfully disagree with you.

Catholics by definition do NOT worship Mary. Yes, we as protestants believe much is attributed to her that should not be. But they do not bow down to Mary as God, therefore, they do not worship her, in the vein in which they worship God the Father, Jesus, and the HS.

Everything else is rhetoric.

I'm sure there are some who do worship mary, whether they be catholic or otherwise.
If you search the internet for pics of keywords mary/worship you can see the people down on their knees in a posture of worship and the object of their worship?
A statue of mary.

But certainly not all catholics/etc. worship mary.

sunlover

 

[Myriah]

I have a question.

If Mary were sinless, than how is Jesus fully man? He got his divinity from God, but got his humanity from no where? All this about Mary seems to be denying the "man" part of Jesus then.

Does it seem that way to anyone else... and should we start a different thread on this? Because where is Jesus fully man according to these Marion dogmas?

 

[PaulAckermann]

because it is a twisting of scripture to make it say what your denomination wants it to say. Mary wasn't even a thought at the time of the Ark of God.

You need to do some study on the attributes of God. God is ominscient. God foreknew EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. God foreknew us before the creation of the world. Each one of us.

So not only was Mary a thought at the time of the Ark of God, she was a thought before the creation of the world. And not only her, but each one of us.

Your view of God is much too small.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Uh... I haven't. But thanks. I think I'm old enough to know what is and isn't true. I don't care what others believe. It only matters if I have peace about what I believe. L&L. Live and Let Live.

the truth that the official RCC position is not one of worshipping Mary.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I'm sure there are some who do worship mary, whether they be catholic or otherwise.
If you search the internet for pics of keywords mary/worship you can see the people down on their knees in a posture of worship and the object of their worship?
A statue of mary.

But certainly not all catholics/etc. worship mary.

sunlover

well, they ARE kneeling in prayer, yes... they pray to Mary as an intercessor. Another thing I do not agree with, however, not Worship in the classic sense.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

the truth that the official RCC position is not one of worshipping Mary.

Okay. That's nice. Not that I'd listen to anything they'd have to say anyway.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

fair enough. But in our disagreement with RCC over Marian theology, let's not forget truth.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=32025160#post32025160

are you accusing me of something?? I have not forgotten anything thank you. Be careful what you accuse people of.

 

[WarriorAngel]

God knows before HE creates us, so choosing Mary was not a random act.
He created Her to specifics. The Messiah wouldnt be entrusted randomly.

You say you are angry at our understanding of ancient scriptures. Tradition unbroken of that understanding..and yet your own should be held in HIGH esteem?

What makes your translations and interpretations infallible?
Because this was the way you were taught since the last century, that it should be the truth for all??

I will stick to ancient teachings.

Its my opinion. You are certainly welcome to yours, but dont denigrate ours because you do not understand it.

Again, I will say this;
The Word of God is both the Ten Commandments, and Christ.
We know this, we see this in scriptures.

The Ark held the Ten Commandments...And that Ark was ornately designed with Cheribim AS per GODS order.

He made it so every detail was Heavenly, every detail was ornate and beautiful to carry His UN common Word [Ten Commandments]

Note how HE specifically wanted it a certain way, to which man had better comply to.

Nothing was left undone in His creation. He cared to every detail, down to the last atom, last molecule.

NOW...look at Mary. The NEW ARK for the WORD [as is Christ's essense since the beginning]

The Covenant is not the Ark, but the Ark carries the Covenant.

I dont see how you do not see how this works.

Mary the NEW ARK, carries the NEW COVENANT.

And God gave her gr8 detail in and pleasing virtues filled with Heavenly ornateness. Her character was humble, She did HIS will over Her own. [Submissive] and she was beautiful to the Lord's eyes for Him to behold. Just as was the Ark in the OT.

Tell me where Christ ever admonishes her a sinner. Where does He tell us she was a sinful person??

He holds her up to the crowd to emulate her.

Who is My Mother?
The one who does the will of the Father....

Not because she bore Him, but by her virtues.
She was not proud, haughty, and she kept things to herself.
She was everything we should be, in order to be close to Jesus.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

You need to do some study on the attributes of God. God is ominscient. God foreknew EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. God foreknew us before the creation of the world. Each one of us.

So not only was Mary a thought at the time of the Ark of God, she was a thought before the creation of the world. And not only her, but each one of us.

Your view of God is much too small.

Yeah..ok. BUT they didn't know to put her picture on Arks then did they?? COME on. OH forget it......this was just plain nonsense. BY the way 'friend' I do study ALOT about God and His glorious attributes. I read the Word of God and see them plain as day. DON'T make accusations against me. You don't know what I study, what I know or anything else.

 

[PaulAckermann]

I have a question.

If Mary were sinless, than how is Jesus fully man? He got his divinity from God, but got his humanity from no where? All this about Mary seems to be denying the "man" part of Jesus then.

Does it seem that way to anyone else... and should we start a different thread on this? Because where is Jesus fully man according to these Marion dogmas?

Sinfulness is not part of humnanity. Adam and Eve were fully human befoore the Fall. Sin actually takes away our humanity, sin makes us less human, not more human.

If sin was part of humanity, then that would mean that Jesus Himself would have had to be a sinner in order to be fully human. Your argument can just as easily apply to Jesus as you applied it to His mother. If Jesus was sinless, if your argument was valid, then how could Jesus be fully human?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Okay. That's nice. Not that I'd listen to anything they'd have to say anyway.

fine then, I've said my piece.

are you accusing me of something?? I have not forgotten anything thank you. Be careful what you accuse people of.

no accusation of anything.

This is just a concern of mine, that we as protestants DO go to far, just as we believe RCC goes to far.

 

[Myriah]

I have a question.

If Mary were sinless, than how is Jesus fully man? He got his divinity from God, but got his humanity from no where? All this about Mary seems to be denying the "man" part of Jesus then.

Does it seem that way to anyone else... and should we start a different thread on this? Because where is Jesus fully man according to these Marion dogmas?

*bump*

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And God gave her gr8 detail in and pleasing virtues filled with Heavenly ornateness. Her character was humble, She did HIS will over Her own. [Submissive] and she was beautiful to the Lord's eyes for Him to behold. Just as was the Ark in the OT.

I did find this interesting about a Catholic Priest and Mary:

http://www.fonsvitae.com/marybless.html

"As a Catholic priest it quite surprised me to find that it was the sacred words found in the Qur’an of Islam that provided me with what I was yearning to know about the Blessed Mary. As one who seeks to make the role of the Blessed Mary better known, the Qur’an brought home to me the gifts of this amazing creature. It is very beautiful to know that when any Muslim mentions Mary, he or she always refers to her as, ‘Our Lady Mary – May the peace of God be upon her.’ In this important book, Mary has been described as possessing ‘the perfection of human spiritual attainment’ and as being ‘amongst the first group of prophets to enter Paradise.’ She is ‘preferred above the women of all nations and all times and of those in Paradise.’ The book emphasizes that she is ‘a spiritual example for mankind.’"
—Fr. Vernon Robertson, The Oratory of Our Lady and Saint Phillip, Louisville, Kentucky

 

[PaulAckermann]

Can anyone answer my question?

I just did. See #932.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

*bump*

Mary was born in sin just like everyone else except Jesus.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Sinfulness is not part of humnanity. Adam and Eve were fully human befoore the Fall. Sin actually takes away our humanity, sin makes us less human, not more human.

If sin was part of humanity, then that would mean that Jesus Himself would have had to be a sinner in order to be fully human. Your argument can just as easily apply to Jesus as you applied it to His mother. If Jesus was sinless, if your argument was valid, then how could Jesus be fully human?

That is not scriptual..how can sin not be part of humanity?that is obsurd.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Sinfulness is not part of humnanity. Adam and Eve were fully human befoore the Fall. Sin actually takes away our humanity, sin makes us less human, not more human.

If sin was part of humanity, then that would mean that Jesus Himself would have had to be a sinner in order to be fully human. Your argument can just as easily apply to Jesus as you applied it to His mother. If Jesus was sinless, if your argument was valid, then how could Jesus be fully human?

a very good point.

 

[Punchy]

TRADITION!!!!!!!!! I can hear the guy singing it from Fiddler on the Roof!

2 Thessalonians 3

6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Stand firm, and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

1 Corinthians 11:2
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.


Without Tradition, there is no Church. Just as Saint Paul instructed us to pray for our fellow Christians, Saint Mary constantly prays for us. Why would you not request the one closest to the bosom of Christ to pray for your salvation and holiness?

 

[FrauleinElsa]

God knows before HE creates us, so choosing Mary was not a random act.
He created Her to specifics. The Messiah wouldnt be entrusted randomly.

You say you are angry at our understanding of ancient scriptures. Tradition unbroken of that understanding..and yet your own should be held in HIGH esteem?

What makes your translations and interpretations infallible?
Because this was the way you were taught since the last century, that it should be the truth for all??

I will stick to ancient teachings.

Its my opinion. You are certainly welcome to yours, but dont denigrate ours because you do not understand it.

Again, I will say this;
The Word of God is both the Ten Commandments, and Christ.
We know this, we see this in scriptures.

The Ark held the Ten Commandments...And that Ark was ornately designed with Cheribim AS per GODS order.

He made it so every detail was Heavenly, every detail was ornate and beautiful to carry His UN common Word [Ten Commandments]

Note how HE specifically wanted it a certain way, to which man had better comply to.

Nothing was left undone in His creation. He cared to every detail, down to the last atom, last molecule.

NOW...look at Mary. The NEW ARK for the WORD [as is Christ's essense since the beginning]

The Covenant is not the Ark, but the Ark carries the Covenant.

I dont see how you do not see how this works.

Mary the NEW ARK, carries the NEW COVENANT.

And God gave her gr8 detail in and pleasing virtues filled with Heavenly ornateness. Her character was humble, She did HIS will over Her own. [Submissive] and she was beautiful to the Lord's eyes for Him to behold. Just as was the Ark in the OT.

Tell me where Christ ever admonishes her a sinner. Where does He tell us she was a sinful person??

He holds her up to the crowd to emulate her.

Who is My Mother?
The one who does the will of the Father....

Not because she bore Him, but by her virtues.
She was not proud, haughty, and she kept things to herself.
She was everything we should be, in order to be close to Jesus.

To whom are you speaking? Certainly not to me. I am not concerned with what you believe. I am only concerned that I am right with God and that I have peace about what I believe. If you have peace about what you believe, then more power to you. Just please do me the one favor of not expecting me to agree with you. Because I don't, and won't. It's just not what I believe.