Yet another "Mary" thread . . . . .

[racer]

Thank you, WA, for addressing all of my points! I do mean to get to all of them, but for now I want to quickly address a couple of them.

There existed no special word in Hebrew or Aramaic for "cousin." The word "brother" is used in these languages generically, and does not necessarily imply children of the same parent. There are many examples in the Old Testament when the word brother was applied to any kind of relations: nephew (Gen. 12, 5), uncle (Gen. 29, 15); husband (Songs. 4, 9); a member of the same tribe (2 Kgs. 9, 13); of the same people (Exod. 2, 21); an ally (Amos 1, 9); a friend (2 Kgs. 1, 26); one of the same office (1 Sam. 9, 13).

So, in other words, there was no word to signify "cousins," and the only option was to use the word which has been translated as "brethrent?"

St. Augustine defense of the Virgin Mary's perpetual virginity:

"It is written (Ezekiel 44, 2): ‘This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it. Because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it...’ What means this closed gate in the house of the Lord, except that Mary is to be ever inviolate? What does it mean that ‘no man shall pass through it,’ save that Joseph shall not know her? And what is this -‘The Lord alone enters in and goeth out by it,’ except that the Holy Ghost shall impregnate her, and that the Lord of Angels shall be born of her? And what means this - ‘It shall be shut for evermore,’ but that Mary is a Virgin before His birth, a Virgin in His birth, and a Virgin after His birth."

So, was this entrance barred in both directions? I mean if the argument is that no "man" shall pass through it, would that not exclude Jesus?

 

[racer]

I think the trouble is that most are used to the precision that the English language provides. Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic...not so precise. I generally agree that the term "brother" is not literal, since, as it was pointed out, the term is used different ways in the Bible.

So, you think there was no appropriate word to signify "cousins" to the exclusion of brothers and sisters?

 

[racer]

These words were in greek and the word used was for brothers for the greek has a different word for cousins... But the word used in the scripture was greek and the word was brother.. Tee hee I hope I didn't sound like I stuttered.. LOL

So, WA has said that Matthew was written in the language of Jesus which was Aramaic. What is your source which states that Matthew was written in Greek. I would like to review it.

 

[IamAdopted]

Mary is not the outer wall of the sancturary.. This is what is being spoken about in Ezekiel.. Where did you hear this from?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Thank you, WA, for addressing all of my points! I do mean to get to all of them, but for now I want to quickly address a couple of them.

[/font][/size][/size]

So, in other words, there was no word to signify "cousins," and the only option was to use the word which has been translated as "brethrent?"




So, was this entrance barred in both directions? I mean if the argument is that no "man" shall pass through it, would that not exclude Jesus?

The term like cousins was available, but they were not close cousins, since those who were first cousins were considered brothers and sisters.
Perhaps you could explain how Mary had a sister Mary.
IE, a distant relationship which was converted to mean cousins.

If you read Ezeckial further, you will see that answered.

 

[racer]

Okay, now I know at least one person has put forth the argument that Matthew was written in Aramaic. I don't know about that yet. But, at some point when the text was translated to Greek, someone saw a need to distinguish between male and female. Look at the following verses:

Mark 10:30; But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Matt 13:55; Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Matt 13:56; And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this [man] all these things?

The verses from Mark are not referring to Jesus, just brethren and sisters in general.


Now as I've just learned and I'm sure that you guys know, the greek word for "sister" is "adelphe" and the Greek word for "brethren" is "adelphos." Now If the book of Matthew was originally written in Aramaic and was eventually translated to Greek, who determined the need to distinguish between male and female relatives. If the original reference was a general word "which signified cousins," why would the Greek translation differentiated between male and female?

Is that question comprehendable? I'm not quite sure how to word it better . . . . .

 

[racer]

Okay, now I know at least one person has put forth the argument that Matthew was written in Aramaic. I don't know about that yet. But, at some point when the text was translated to Greek, someone saw a need to distinguish between male and female. Look at the following verses:

Mark 10:30; But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Matt 13:55; Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Matt 13:56; And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this [man] all these things?

The verses from Mark are not referring to Jesus, just brethren and sisters in general.


Now as I've just learned and I'm sure that you guys know, the greek word for "sister" is "adelphe" and the Greek word for "brethren" is "adelphos." Now If the book of Matthew was originally written in Aramaic and was eventually translated to Greek, who determined the need to distinguish between male and female relatives. If the original reference was a general word "which signified cousins," why would the Greek translation differentiated between male and female?

Is that question comprehendable? I'm not quite sure how to word it better . . . . .

For instance, WA, I went back to your first response (to further investigate the sister of Mary, Mary ) and noticed this:

There existed no special word in Hebrew or Aramaic for "cousin." The word "brother" is used in these languages generically, and does not necessarily imply children of the same parent. There are many examples in the Old Testament when the word brother was applied to any kind of relations: nephew (Gen. 12, 5), uncle (Gen. 29, 15); husband (Songs. 4, 9); a member of the same tribe (2 Kgs. 9, 13); of the same people (Exod. 2, 21); an ally (Amos 1, 9); a friend (2 Kgs. 1, 26); one of the same office (1 Sam. 9, 13).
​

What about the word "sister?" Was there a more specific word or did the word "brother" cover sisters also?

 

[Oblio]

5. "Then Joseph, being raised from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him." Seest thou obedience, and a submissive mind? Seest thou a soul truly wakened, and in all things incorruptible? For neither when he suspected something painful or amiss could he endure to keep the Virgin with him; nor yet, after he was freed from this suspicion, could he bear to cast her out, but he rather keeps her with him, and ministers to the whole Dispensation.

"And took unto him Mary his wife." Seest thou how continually the evangelist uses this word, not willing that that mystery should be disclosed as yet, and annihilating that evil suspicion?

And when he had taken her, "he knew her not, till she had brought forth her first-born Son."5 He hath here used the word "till," not that thou shouldest suspect that afterwards he did know her, but to inform thee that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched by man. But why then, it may be said, hath he used the word, "till"? Because it is usual in Scripture often to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times. For so with respect to the ark likewise, it is said, "The raven returned not till the earth was dried up."6 And yet it did not return even after that time. And when discoursing also of God, the Scripture saith, "From age until age Thou art,"7 not as fixing limits in this case. And again when it is preaching the Gospel beforehand, and saying, "In his days shall righteousness flourish, and abundance of peace, till the moon be taken away,"8 it doth not set a limit to this fair part of creation. So then here likewise, it uses the word "till," to make certain what was before the birth, but as to what follows, it leaves thee to make the inference. Thus, what it was necessary for thee to learn of Him, this He Himself hath said; that the Virgin was untouched by man until the birth; but that which both was seen to be a consequence of the former statement, and was acknowledged, this in its turn he leaves for thee to perceive; namely, that not even after this, she having so become a mother, and having been counted worthy of a new sort of travail, and a child-bearing so strange, could that righteous man ever have endured to know her. For if he had known her, and had kept her in the place of a wife, how is it that our Lord9 commits her, as unprotected, and having no one, to His disciple, and commands him to take her to his own home?

How then, one may say, are James and the others called His brethren? In the same kind of way as Joseph himself was supposed to be husband of Mary. For many were the veils provided, that the birth, being such as it was, might be for a time screened. Wherefore even John so called them, saying, "For neither did His brethren believe in Him."10

St. John Chrysostom, Homily V,The Gospel According to St. Matthew

 

[IamAdopted]

I did read all of that chapter.. Mary had nothing to do with the Temple of God.. Jesus became the temple of God.. He said tear this temple down and I will rebuild it in three days..Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus.. When Jesus ascended on High He took His rightful place from whence He came.. On the right hand side of the Father..

 

[IamAdopted]

Jesus brothers did not believe in Him.. So therefore Jesus intrusted John with Mary.. Tradtion says that she lived with him until she died.. We don't know alot about Joseph because the scripture gives little about him. We know a little bit more about Mary but after Acts she is not mentioned any more either..

 

[Oblio]

Mary is not the outer wall of the sancturary.. This is what is being spoken about in Ezekiel.. Where did you hear this from?

The Church. Where did you hear otherwise ?

This is the prophecy of the Ever Virginity of the Theotokos, read during the feasts pertaining to her and the Incarnation. The sanctuary is a type of the Theotokos.

 

[racer]

Who, then, exactly were the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ?
It is best to start by looking at St. John 19, 25. There it is evident that the Virgin Mary had an older sister whose name was also Mary "Meanwhile, standing near the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene."

Okay, so let's look at:

John 19:25: Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

What about this verse says that Mary had a sister named Mary? It could read to say that four women were standing by the cross of Jesus; 1) Mary 2) her sister 3) Mary the wife of Cleophas, and 4) Mary Magdalene.

But, we don't exactly know how people were named and called, I suppose Mary could have had a sister named Mary. That would explain the need to clarify with the statement, "wife of Cleophas." That distinguishes her identity from her sister.

 

[IamAdopted]

The Church. Where did you hear otherwise ?

This is the prophecy of the Ever Virginity of the Theotokos, read during the feasts pertaining to her and the Incarnation. The sanctuary is a type of the Theotokos.

Oh boy...

 

[Rowan]

So, you think there was no appropriate word to signify "cousins" to the exclusion of brothers and sisters?

Correct.

Your sister () in Christ,

 

[IamAdopted]

Okay, so let's look at:

John 19:25: Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

What about this verse says that Mary had a sister named Mary? I read it to identify four women standing by the cross of Jesus; 1) Mary 2) her sister 3) Mary the wife of Cleophas, and 4) Mary Magdalene.

Actually I read it to be Mary and her sister, Mary the wife of Cleopolas and Mary Magdalene.. So I read three.. IT was not uncommon for them to name their children like that back then...

 

[racer]

Actually I read it to be Mary and her sister, Mary the wife of Cleopolas and Mary Magdalene.. So I read three.. IT was not uncommon for them to name their children like that back then...

Yeah, I rethought how I worded my post and edited it. It reads a little differently now . . . .

 

[Davidnic]

I think you probably mean how do I know that there weren't Jesus' step-bros and sis . . . . because the only way they could be half-brothers would be that Mary be the mother.

But what evidence or implications would you use to argue that the verses do indeed speak of step-siblings? Because I would direct you further to these verses:

Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Luk 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

On the issue of the use of the term firstborn, there are inscriptions and writing from the time that say things such as, "Died in the birth of her firstborn son".

So we have some historical evidence that the use of the term firstborn does not indicate others after. Firstborn could easily be only born. There are also biblical references using firstborn in such a manner.

On other points Eusebius, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Jerome mention that Matthew was originally in Aramaic. It was only around the 1500's that it was ever questioned.

Also, to quote from an interesting Greek Orthodox article that addresses most of your questions:

It seems beyond reasonable dispute that the Mary at the Cross in St. Matthew and St. Mark is the mother of our Lord’s “brothers,” “James and Joses.” Also, it is inconceivable that Matthew and Mark would refer to the Lord’s Mother at the foot of the Cross as the mother of James and Joseph, but not mention that she is the Mother of Jesus as well!


If it is the case, as the Scriptures suggest, that Mary wife of Clopas is the same as the mother of James and Joseph, we have the following conclusion: the Theotokos had a “sister,” married to Clopas, who was the mother of James and Joseph, our Lord’s “brothers.” Here, the question ought to immediately arise concerning the Theotokos’ relationship to this Mary: What kind of “sister” is she?


Hegisippus, a Jewish Christian historian who, according to Eusebius, “belonged to the first generation after the apostles” and who interviewed many Christians from that apostolic community for his history, relates that Clopas was the brother of St. Joseph, foster-father of Christ (apud. Eusb. Eccl. H. iv:22). If this is so (and Hegisippus is generally acknowledged as fully reliable), then “Mary wife of Clopas” was the Virgin Mary’s “sister” in that she was her sister-in-law.


The puzzle therefore fits together. St. Joseph married the Virgin Theotokos, who gave birth to Christ, her only Child, preserving her virginity and having no other children. St. Joseph’s brother, Clopas, also married a woman named Mary, who had the children James and Joseph (along with Judas and Simon, and daughters also). These children were our Lord’s “brothers” (using the terminology of Israel, which as we have seen made no distinction between brothers and cousins but referred to all as “brothers”). (source)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Actually I read it to be Mary and her sister, Mary the wife of Cleopolas and Mary Magdalene.. So I read three.. IT was not uncommon for them to name their children like that back then...

Man, I have to take a greek course LOL. It doesn't appear to say this Mary was the wife of Clopas but of the Clopas. And if you change the "and" before Mary to "even" it would be Mary the Magdalene. Thoughts?

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 19:15 Had stood yet beside to the stauros of the Jesus, the mother of Him, and the sister of the mother of Him, Mary, the of the Clopas and Mary the Magdalene

[SIZE=+0](Greek NT - Byz./Maj.) John 19:25 eisthkeisan de para tw staurw tou ihsou h mhthr autou kai h adelfh thV mhtroV autou maria h tou klwpa kai maria h magdalhnh [/SIZE]

There is one verse containing the word Klopas (Strong's 2832).

2832 Klopas {klo-pas'}
of Aramaic origin (corresponding to 0256);; n pr m
AV - Cleophas 1; 1
Cleophas = "my exchanges"

 

[WarriorAngel]

Lamb, the use of 'of' meant a consumated marriage.

Which is why we see no where Mary 'of' Joseph.

The common use of the wife to be called of [insert husbands name] was how they knew who was married to someone else.

Now we dont say it as such. We say 'Mrs so and so'

However; lets look closer at cultural ditties.

For instance in Malaysia currently a son has his first name, his middle name and his fathers last name. When that son marries, his last name [of his fathers] is dropped and his wife takes on his middle name, and his middle name is now his last name too.

Just wanted to observe cultural differences.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Lamb, the use of 'of' meant a consumated marriage.

Which is why we see no where Mary 'of' Joseph.

The common use of the wife to be called of [insert husbands name] was how they knew who was married to someone else.

Now we dont say it as such. We say 'Mrs so and so'

However; lets look closer at cultural ditties.

For instance in Malaysia currently a son has his first name, his middle name and his fathers last name. When that son marries, his last name [of his fathers] is dropped and his wife takes on his middle name, and his middle name is now his last name too.

Just wanted to observe cultural differences.

Ok thanks. Do you know for sure though whether this is a place or person even though it shows that word in the masculine? But you could be right and thanks for the help.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 19:15 Had stood yet beside to the stauros of the Jesus, the mother of Him, and the sister of the mother of Him, Mary, the of the Clopas/M and Mary the Magdalene/F

[SIZE=+0](Greek NT - Byz./Maj.) John 19:25 eisthkeisan de para tw staurw tou ihsou h mhthr autou kai h adelfh thV mhtroV autou maria h tou klwpa kai maria h magdalhnh [/SIZE]

There is one verse containing the word Klopas (Strong's 2832).

2832 Klopas {klo-pas'}
of Aramaic origin (corresponding to 0256);; n pr m
AV - Cleophas 1; 1