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Abundance of Vernacular Scriptures before Wycliff

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And if he did translate it in the way you say, if Wycliff was the first to publish it in English, how in the name of reason can it be true at the same time that Luther, more than 100 years afterwards, discovered it? You see?

This is the second time you've said something similar to this, and I am still confused as to what on earth you are talking about.

I haven't mentioned anything about Luther, nevermind him "discovering" something.

Just what on earth are you talking about?
Edit:

Also, RccWarrior, you also seem to be quoting from this website:

http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/deuteros/graham13.html

Let's do a bit of mix and match.

From the website:

'there was no anxiety whatever for an English version excepting among a small minority of the people', and 'the universal desire for a Bible in England we read so much of in most works on the subject existed only in the imagination of the writers'. Dr. Brewer, another Protestant, also scoffs at the idea. 'To imagine,' he says, 'that ploughmen and shepherds in the country read the New Testament in English by stealth, or that smiths and carpenters in towns pored over its pages in the corner of their master's workshops, is to mistake the character and acquirements of the age.' There has, in short, been a great deal of wild and groundless talk about the intense desire of the people of that century to devour the Scriptures. And we can prove it by these simple facts, that (I) the people had to be compelled by law to buy Bibles, for Acts were passed again and again threatening the King's displeasure and a fine of 40s. per month if the Book was not purchased; (2) we have documentary evidence that inhabitants of certain parts of the country, such as Cornwall and Devonshire, unanimously objected too the new translation, and that even among the clergy Reformers like Bishop Hugh Latimer almost entirely ignored the English copy and always took their texts from the Latin Vulgate; (3) printers had large stocks of printed Bibles left unsold on their hands, and could not get rid of them at any price, except under legal coercion; (4) the same edition of the Bible was often re-issued with fresh titles and preliminary matter, and new title-pages were composed for old unsold Bibles, without any regard to truth, simply to get them sold. I do not see how we can resist the conviction that there was really no extensive demand for English Bibles among the mass of Christians at that time in England, whether clergy or laity, and that the design of spreading them wholesale among the masses was borrowed from the Continent which was then in a perfect ferment of Religious and Civil Revolution. Hence you can understand at once how Tyndale's proposal was viewed with suspicion and disfavour by the Bishops, and himself refused any assistance or encouragement from Tunstall, Bishop of London, and other prelates. And when we further bear in mind (as the Athenaeum pertinently remarked, 24th August, 1889) that this irresponsible private chaplain had become already known as a man of dangerous views, who was exceedingly insulting in his manner, unscrupulous, and of a most violent temper; that in postprandial discussions he repeatedly abused and insulted Church dignitaries who were present; that with him the Pope was anti-Christ and the harlot of Babylon, whilst the monks and friars were 'caterpillars, horseleeches, drone-bees, and draff,' we shall not be vastly astonished that these dignitaries did not evince much enthusiasm in pushing on Mr. Tyndale's scheme.

From your post:
'there was no anxiety whatever for an English version excepting a small minority of the people', and the universal desire for a Bible in England we read so much of in most works on the subject existed only in the imagination of the writers. Dr. Brewer, another Protestant, also scoffs at the idea. "To imagine", he says " that ploughmen and shepherds in the country read the New Testament in English by stealth, or that smiths and carpenters in towns pored over its pages in the corner of their master's workshops, is to mistake the character and aquirements of the age". There has been a great deal of wild and groundless talk about the intense desire of the people of that century to devour the Scriptures. And I can prove it by these simple facts. 1.) The people had to be compelled by law to buy Bibles, for Acts were passed again and again threateningthe King's displeasure and a fine of 40's per month if the Book was NOT purchased. 2.) We have DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE that inhabitants of certain parts of the country, such as Cornwall and Devonshire, unanimously objected to the new translation and that even among the clergy Reformers like Bishop Hugh Latimer almost entirely ignored the English copy and always took their texts from the Latin Vulgate. 3.) Printers had large stocks of printed Bibles left unsold on their hands, and could not get rid of them under any price except with legal coercion.
Now you can understand at once how Tyndale's proposal was viewed with suspicion and disfavour by the Bishops, and himself refused any assistance or encouragement from Tunstall, Bishop of London or other prelates. And that this irresponsible private chaplain had already become known as a man of dangerous views, who was insulting in manner, unscrupulous, and of a violent temper, that in postprandial discussions, he repeatedly abused and insulted Church dignataries who were present; that the Pope was the Anti-Christ, whilst the monks were caterpillars, horseleeches and draff, we shall not be vastly astonished that these dignataries did not evince much enthusiasm in pushing on Mr. Tyndale's scheme.

You know, it would be nice, as you have literally just copied and pasted literally word for word from here, to point to the website where you actually get your information from.

Edit #2:

In fact, checking over the other pages of this website, you have literally copied many things word for word from this website concerning every single post you have done in this thread.

Honestly, do you take all of us for fools?

This website uses no sources for it's information, so I'm going to take it, and you, as literally posting utter rubbish.

Either tell me the sources you have actually used for your information, or stop posting from this website, which also has not given any sources for it's information, and mentions several people that no one else seems to have heard of.

Dr. Brewer - what's he a "Dr." of?
 
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RccWarrior

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You painstakingly look to see where I get my information...yet fail to see what the information is all about. All I know that Dr. Brewer was a Protestant. Does it matter if not to read historical facts?
Would you like to talk deficiencies in the Protestant Bible? Or should I just walk away, knowing you have historical facts in which you never knew.
 
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Sorry, but I shall rely on David Daniell's book, The Bible in English to give me the History regarding the English translation of the Scriptures, not from your propaganda from a website which gives absolutely no sources regarding it's "information."

There is no historical fact on that website you were copying of.

But not only that, you lied to us.

You said you weren't copying and pasting from a site, which you actually were.

And yes, I always check the information which people quote from.

Or in your case, copy word for word, and give no credit to where you were getting your "information" from.

Have you checked the information given on this website?

I sincerly doubt it.
 
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RccWarrior

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Sorry, but I shall rely on David Daniell's book, The Bible in English to give me the History regarding the English translation of the Scriptures, not from your propaganda from a website which gives absolutely no sources regarding it's "information."

There is no historical fact on that website you were copying of.

But not only that, you lied to us.

You said you weren't copying and pasting from a site, which you actually were.

And yes, I always check the information which people quote from.

Or in your case, copy word for word, and give no credit to where you were getting your "information" from.

Have you checked the information given on this website?

I sincerly doubt it.

I have not LIED to anyone, your friend posted another website, and I said I did no copying from that site. My sources are extremely credible and causes you much greif because it is historical fact. Instead of putting me down and dragging me through the mud, I suggest you look to your own church and get the real historical facts that I have proven. I have studied this in Theology class, if by chance it is on the internet, well then it is on the internet also. You will always deny the history of the Roman Catholic Church, but as history shows, even to the extent of some protestants agreeing, you still see a different view. Good luck.
 
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I have not LIED to anyone, your friend posted another website, and I said I did no copying from that site.

Actually, it was me who posted the website first, in post #23 of this thread.

Put you did say this:

RccWarrior said:
Oh, and they are not cut and pasted..;)

That was the lie, as they are copied and pasted.

I discovered the site you were copying and pasting from, and yet you still refused to give credit.

My sources are extremely credible and causes you much greif because it is historical fact.

YOU HAVE YET TO GIVE ME ANY SOURCES FOR YOUR INFORMATION!

I found the website you were quoting from myself, even after I had asked you to provide a source.

And what's causing me grief is that you're proposing your copied and pasted statements as historical fact, even though I know completely the opposite to what you are proposing.

I know the Historical fact regarding Wycliffe and Tyndale, and your bastardisation of it is starting to tickle a very angry nerve.

The more you post, the more lies you propagate regarding Tyndale and Wycliffe.

Instead of putting me down and dragging me through the mud, I suggest you look to your own church and get the real historical facts that I have proven.

Proven?

PROVEN?!

YOU have YET to prove ANYTHING what you have stated in this thread. Yet, you still continue your bastardisation of the history and propose incorrect lies and propaganda as the truth, and then tell me off for not believing it!

It's no wonder I don't believe it, as I don't believe bastardisational lies post by someone with an attitude problem and a dislike for anyone who has gone against what she sees as "the One True Church".

So no, stop all this, you're only makng yourself look far worse than you already have done throughout this entire thread, and I am glad that no one reading this thread has believed a single word you have said, because it's all lies.

Luckily, many people on this forum have brain cells that can deduce a liar.
 
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RccWarrior

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Actually, it was me who posted the website first, in post #23 of this thread.

Put you did say this:



That was the lie, as they are copied and pasted.

I discovered the site you were copying and pasting from, and yet you still refused to give credit.



YOU HAVE YET TO GIVE ME ANY SOURCES FOR YOUR INFORMATION!

I found the website you were quoting from myself, even after I had asked you to provide a source.

And what's causing me grief is that you're proposing your copied and pasted statements as historical fact, even though I know completely the opposite to what you are proposing.

I know the Historical fact regarding Wycliffe and Tyndale, and your bastardisation of it is starting to tickle a very angry nerve.

The more you post, the more lies you propagate regarding Tyndale and Wycliffe.



Proven?

PROVEN?!

YOU have YET to prove ANYTHING what you have stated in this thread. Yet, you still continue your bastardisation of the history and propose incorrect lies and propaganda as the truth, and then tell me off for not believing it!

It's no wonder I don't believe it, as I don't believe bastardisational lies post by someone with an attitude problem and a dislike for anyone who has gone against what she sees as "the One True Church".

So no, stop all this, you're only makng yourself look far worse than you already have done throughout this entire thread, and I am glad that no one reading this thread has believed a single word you have said, because it's all lies.

Luckily, many people on this forum have brain cells that can deduce a liar.

I would expect these kinds of answers from people like you. I have had a few PM's and looks like some people seem to think I and history make a lot of sense. And they were not Catholics. You have no right to be angry because someone just PROVED to you where the Bible comes from. You are mad because Tyndale and Wycliff, two heretics are not put on a pedestal by anyone but yourself. I know Protestants agree with me when we have discussions back here at home. They weigh the history, time periods and characteristics of these two and agree. That doesn't mean they won't stay a Protestant, just means that there eyes were opened through history, not just Scripture.
 
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sunlover1

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... Does it matter if not to read historical facts?...

You did see these historical facts right?
How this quote below is about the Word of God, not some "writings that were being passed around".

Canon 14.
We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.


RccWarrior,
Are you looking for truth or just being a Rcc Warrior with no discretion?
Be a GOD's WORD warrior too!
:thumbsup:


What do you think about an organization withholding the Word of God?
:eek:
 
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RccWarrior

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You did see these historical facts right?
How this quote below is about the Word of God, not some "writings that were being passed around".




RccWarrior,
Are you looking for truth or just being a Rcc Warrior with no discretion?
Be a GOD's WORD warrior too!
:thumbsup:


What do you think about an organization withholding the Word of God?
:eek:

I dunno, what organization would that be? And it would be nice to talk instead of constantly quoting Scripture when it doesn't apply to historical facts. You must learn history for the peices of the puzzle to be put together.
:liturgy:
 
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sunlover1

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I dunno, what organization would that be? :liturgy:

Any.

Any organization, person, entity... who would deny people the opportunity to see the Word of God.

Would that bother you?
 
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Also, RccWarrior.

Sunlover didn't actualy quote any "Scripture" in his post you were refering to.

You have also yet to provide a source for your information.

I know through personal experience that even in a theology class, the lecturer will provide a book source for their information.
 
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RccWarrior

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Any.

Any organization, person, entity... who would deny people the opportunity to see the Word of God.

Would that bother you?

Sunlover, if you are implying that it was the Roman Carholic church, then it would bother me. They never denied anyone the use of the Bible, the Holy Word of God, but protected it from the Reformers who wanted to change it.
 
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RccWarrior

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Also, RccWarrior.

Sunlover didn't actualy quote any "Scripture" in his post you were refering to.

You have also yet to provide a source for your information.

I know through personal experience that even in a theology class, the lecturer will provide a book source for their information.

My information comes from my gift of knowledge and wisdom. (Not to say the least of much schooling abroad here and there.) Listen, I'm sure that you must understand what I've told you. I am sorry that this is historical fact. there have been things said abut the Catholic church, but because I know my faith, I know it is the true church of christ. What is wrong with what I know to come to that conclusion? What if what I tell you is true? Will you still deny it?
Doesn't it make sense to you that there were people in the day where they took it upon themselves to try and change things because of one reason or another? why does that reason always mean to be "because the Catholic church is corrupt". why can't it just be that that is what really happened with no attitude against my church? We have been around since the beginning of Christ, that is why Wycliff, Tyndale Luther, they were all Catholics at one time. don't you see that? There were only Catholics, and Bishops etc...monks, friars...
 
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I would like to know your actual source.

I don't particulary care what sort of "gift of knowledge" you have, as that is not in anyway a credible source.

You get your "knowledge" from somewhere, so bring forth the source.

It's not that hard.

That is of course, if you don't actually have one, then it's frankily impossible.

As you have refused to give any reference to anything, I'm going to go with the 2nd option.

Unless you provide us all with option one.
 
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sunlover1

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Sunlover, if you are implying that it was the Roman Carholic church, then it would bother me. They never denied anyone the use of the Bible, the Holy Word of God, but protected it from the Reformers who wanted to change it.

No no no, it's not me that's saying this RccWarrior.

I quoted this from historical documents of your churches.

The Council of Toulouse, which met in November of 1229, about the time of the crusade against the Albigensians, set up a special ecclesiastical tribunal, or court, known as the Inquisition:


Canon 14.
We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.

Does it bother you that anyone would withhold the Word of God from His people?
 
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RccWarrior

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No no no, it's not me that's saying this RccWarrior.

I quoted this from historical documents of your churches.

The Council of Toulouse, which met in November of 1229, about the time of the crusade against the Albigensians, set up a special ecclesiastical tribunal, or court, known as the Inquisition:


Canon 14.
We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.

Does it bother you that anyone would withhold the Word of God from His people?

No, because I've already explained it in my above quotes. did you read it? And that didn't happen the way you think it did.
 
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RccWarrior

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I would like to know your actual source.

I don't particulary care what sort of "gift of knowledge" you have, as that is not in anyway a credible source.

You get your "knowledge" from somewhere, so bring forth the source.

It's not that hard.

That is of course, if you don't actually have one, then it's frankily impossible.

As you have refused to give any reference to anything, I'm going to go with the 2nd option.

Unless you provide us all with option one.

Don't say "provide us all" because no one is challenging me except you. You mean to tell me that you have no other questions but "where did you get your source"? I thought you found a source already? You'd think being from england, you'd know your English history. Seems I know more of your country than you do. I was in england also. In fact, I was in all of europe.
Stop turning a blind eye. It is what it is.
 
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Don't say "provide us all" because no one is challenging me except you. You mean to tell me that you have no other questions but "where did you get your source"? I thought you found a source already? You'd think being from england, you'd know your English history. Seems I know more of your country than you do. I was in england also. In fact, I was in all of europe.
Stop turning a blind eye. It is what it is.


Miss, you make absolutely no sense sometimes.

You do not know my History better than me at all.

The source for my information is the book The Bible in English

What is your source for your information?

Is it just this website you copy and paste from?

And actually, sunlover and tulc are challenging you.

Tulc has asked you to tell us what Wycliffe and Tyndale's heresies are.

I think I'm going to end up typing the 30 pages dedicated to Wycliffe and the 30 pages dedicated to Tyndale from The Bible in English so that people on here actually have some decent information regarding them from an actual scholar.

Yes, I think i'll do that.
 
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NewToLife

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I want to make an observation about the history of the vernacular in England. It isnt well appreciated but prior to 1066 and the Papal endorsed Norman conquest of England the English church was in fact using English, both in its liturgy and with at least partial translations of the scriptures into English. The English church became a Latin church only under the Normans and the influence of the reformed papacy.

There was always a current of resentment over the move to Latin and in many ways Wycliffe was not so much an innovator as a man reasserting what had been lost previously due to Roman innovation.
 
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RccWarrior

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Miss, you make absolutely no sense sometimes.

You do not know my History better than me at all.

The source for my information is the book The Bible in English

What is your source for your information?

Is it just this website you copy and paste from?

And actually, sunlover and tulc are challenging you.

Tulc has asked you to tell us what Wycliffe and Tyndale's heresies are.

I think I'm going to end up typing the 30 pages dedicated to Wycliffe and the 30 pages dedicated to Tyndale from The Bible in English so that people on here actually have some decent information regarding them from an actual scholar.

Yes, I think i'll do that.

The Bible in English was written by whom? Do you have the correct Bible? Are you sure? what source is this?
 
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