Birth Control

[MrsJoy]

That's not true. Even the richest couple on the face of the earth can neglect 10 children and not give them what they need emotionally. They may have financial stability, but may also have emotional and mental instability.

While on the other hand, a couple that is just getting by could give each of those 10 children everything they need emotionally and mentally, which, in my book, is much more important in the long run, then giving them everything and more financially.

My great-grandmother was very poor, yet raised 13 children (this was back in the '20's and '30's) and none of them starved to death. You can't say that someone cannot raise 10 children just because they may not be as rich as Bill Gates.

I mean, seriously? You said no couple can care for 10 children.

SOME can.
Most cannot.
it is just physically and emotionally impossible, if not financially.
I've lived this.
If my mom had not believed what she does now for all their years of marriage there would be at least 11 of us (there are 8).
Many times the financial side of this means having to rely on the help from the government "i know i can't afford it, but they can, so, so what"
I believe that God calls us to use wisdom.
The health of the woman must also be taken into account.
Such a thing wears GREATLY on a woman, and as she ages it becomes more and more dangerous for her to bear children.

 

[MrsJoy]

Desmalia, the problem I have with those questions is there seems to be an assumption that if we don't step in and do something that there will be a steady stream of babies flowing from the uterus. Too many people today want to dictate exactly when and how many children they have. The medical establishments love that. People spend so much money either trying to prevent, achieve or terminate pregnancy, but then complain when they have to spend money on their kids. What a shame!

the reason for such thinking being that when one does not use bc, one will get pregnant, on average at least once every two years.
biology.

 

[MrsJoy]

As Christians, we have a higher calling than just "if they want to." If you really feel God doesn't want you to have a big family, I'm sure He can handle the details.
But what if birth control fails? Then abortion is all that's left. The pill and IUD create abortions. I'm not God, I don't make other peoples children so how am I forcing anyone to do anything? I'm just providing biblical and medical evidence to show why I believe what I do. I'm not responsible for anyone's sinbut my own.

what is wrong with this line of thinking is the idea that because a couple under God's direction chooses to use bc that they are not trusting God. They must not trust Him and are therefore sinning.
This is a legalistic idea.
It is man-made and not scriptural.
I don't know anyone (personally) who use bc who would have an abortion.
making the leap from bc to abortion is a HUGE Leap, and a dangerous one at that.

also, not all bc pills cause abortions.
this has been claimed for Years without any scientific backing.
it is simply an idea in someone's head that they think might possibly happen.
and as for allowing God to handle the details:
I do believe that we have been instructed repeatedly in scripture to use wisdom.

 

[SallyNow]

That's not true. Even the richest couple on the face of the earth can neglect 10 children and not give them what they need emotionally. They may have financial stability, but may also have emotional and mental instability.

While on the other hand, a couple that is just getting by could give each of those 10 children everything they need emotionally and mentally, which, in my book, is much more important in the long run, then giving them everything and more financially.

My great-grandmother was very poor, yet raised 13 children (this was back in the '20's and '30's) and none of them starved to death. You can't say that someone cannot raise 10 children just because they may not be as rich as Bill Gates.

I mean, seriously? You said no couple can care for 10 children.

It was very rare for none of the children to have died. Again, another statistical fluke.

As you may note, it was the 20's and 30's. The price of raising a child was much less then, and the medical technology that allows most children to survive past age 5 was starting to be put in to place. That is probably why none of the children died - a very good thing, of course!

Before the 20th century, many people had such large families because so many of the children died early on. A family may have 10 births, but only have 6 or 7 of those children make it into adulthood. A woman might have two children, die in childbirth with the third child, and then the father may remarry - and then remarry again - ending up with perhaps 8 children, but from three different mothers.

Of course, the upper-class often employed methods of birth control even when it was illegal - yes, there have been methods dating back thousands of years. And abortion was not unheard of - but it was not spoke of.

Children should be a blessing, not a burden. When families where larger, more children died. We no longer have that tragedy - most children in Western society will grow up healthy and strong, on to raise a family of their own.

I believe the pill was created so people could have sex outside of marriage and not get pregnant.

That may be your belif, that that isn't the reality. The Pill was created for a number of reasons: first, it was a safe alternative to the home-grown birth control methods people had been using for centuries. Second, as health increased, and lifespan increased, so did fertility, and so did the survival rate of young children. Third, so that a woman could control her cycle, PMS, and painful mentrual cramps. And, of course, for other reasons (profit, etc)

Yes, it is used so two people can have sex without worrying much about pregnancy... but there were many more reasons behind it.

Tough subject. On one hand, women have been giving birth without birth control for thousands of years and never felt like slaves; in fact, many women wish they could get pregnant (hopefully they are married women).

Historically incorrect. See above.

Oh, and as for the side-effects of BC that so many speak of as being so grave: every drug has side-effects. The side-effects of the Pill are not out of line with other drugs taken every day: painkillers, antacids, antihistamines, coffee, etc.

 

[MrsJoy]

I know for a fact that the IUD does not cause an abortion. I got one (with permission from my priest) because we just had our third and fourth children and they are all under the age of 4 and we are in extreme financial hardship and since we know we are fertile, we needed a little break until we can stabalize again. I didn't want anything at all, but my husband threatened a visectomy so I had a huge talk with my ob about IUDs and she said she used to not prescribe them because she thought they were abortive, but did further research on it and found out that all they do is block the sperm from entering the filopian tubes. My doctor is very pro-life and refuses to ever terminate a pregnancy for any reason which is unusual now a days so I do trust her. However, if I do find out that the IUD is an abortive, I will march right back to my dr and get it taken out.

they are in fact abortive. they are well known to cause abortions early on in a pregnancy.
research it a little more my dear.

 

[MrsJoy]

That is totally wrong. An IUD makes the uterus hostile to the zygote so it cannot implant and dies. Pills sometimes prevent ovulation, but if not, they also cause abortion in the same way an IUD does.
http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html

again...
it is amazing that in this day and age of science etc...
that we can get away with stating things as fact that are merely theory...and have never been proven.
and bc pills have not been proven scientifically to cause abortions.

 

[MrsJoy]

simply not true. i am one of 12 kids (soon to be 13) and my parents are everything but millionaires. we've all survived just fine

money isn't everything, and quite often what we think is poverty is just going without things we don't actually need. love is the most important thing, we can live without money, but we can't live without love (at least, not live life as it should be lived)

i find it interesting that you point out that love is what matters...
b/c many people just cant' handle such a thing, nor hand out that much love.
it is just true.
SOME can, but many can not.

 

[MrsJoy]

i sincerely hope that people reading this thread do not expect to get good medical advice that they can trust from a website on the net. yes, by all means read as much and as diverse a collection of opinions on whatever topic you need to. but before you get upset or carried away by strong emotions, or worse yet worried and concerned about what you read, talk to real live people you can trust, your doctor, your Pastors, trusted and wise friends.

simply put.
do not trust anything you read on the net without good colloboration from people you can trust.
there are not only wolves out there (or is it in here?) but there are sincere and well spoken(and well written) people who are just as sincerely wrong and therefore potentailly dangerous.

truth is sometimes hard to figure out, especially if it is a burning issue like BC, the stronger your emotional pull towards an issue, the more important it is to resist that temptation and let logic and good reason lead your way, not emotion.


when you go to a new (to you) website, poke around, find out who they are. if they don't tell you, assume they are hiding it for a neferious reason.


from: http://www.noroomforcontraception.com/Resources/Birth-Control-FAQ.htm

for instance, from the website linked to above.

exactly
one word : agenda.

 

[MrsJoy]

The site was full of opinions with no scriptual backup.

Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30:6

I am all for obeying GOD'S Words.

But a man's opinion...sorry, it's simply opinion. to say that said opinion is from God is adding to His Words.

 

[MrsJoy]

what business is it of ours if people use (or don't) use birth control? That's between them isn't it?
tulc(seems a little...snoopy to me)

YES
this is something between a husband, a wife and their God.

 

[MrsJoy]

I am going to take my medical advice from doctors and those who are experts in human reproductive biology, not from propaganda sites.

 

[MrsJoy]

So you don't care that millions of people are chemically and surgically castrating themselves? Most people whould consider it an insult to be told not to reproduce. I'm sure I would get warned on this forum that that is considered flaming, even if the person proudly proclaims they are using birth control voluntarily. Think about that.
http://www.pregnantpause.org/abort/untold.htm
Please Christian people, stop doing this to yourselves.

one word
propoganda.
that is a personal opinion.
and a very narrow minded one at that.
please, if you have something from GOD'S Word...
but personal opinion...is only personal opinion

 

[MrsJoy]

What's dangerous is birth control. Most people are totally uninformed of the side effects because they are downplayed by pharmacists and doctors.
Accusations of Lies and propaganda should fall to those who promote altering the body as God designed it with devices and chemicals and surgery and turning sex into fruitless recreation instead of the loving act it was meant to be. It's time to stop following the world.
http://www.cwfa.org/articles/7168/CWA/life/index.htm

Pregnancy is a normal and natural state of the female body, not a disease.

just b/c people do not agree with your opinions does not make them uninformed
it means that they differ with your ideas.
and I cannot see how such ideas and propoganda line up with God's Word.

 

[MrsJoy]

Isn't that what birth control makes her? The woman poisons her bodies, aborts her children or has her reproductive organs sliced up so the man can get sexual gratification without the responsibility of a blessed child. Not sure what the second sentence is supposed to mean in relation to the subject.

If we are truly talking about 'informed adults' then they know all this and shouldn't take offense at the truth. But many people just use contraceptives because it's what society says to do. I call that intellectual rationalization of sin.

because a husband and wife decide together to use bc that makes HER The head of the house??
how in the world does that logically add up???
you are ASSUMING that all bc causes abortions (which not all does, not even close).
You casting judgement upon those who choose to have surgery. NOWHERE are we forbidden to do these things in Scripture.
TRUTH??
And you believe the links that you have been posting are TRUTH.
wow, just, wow
We are however warned about casting condemnation upon our brother and sisters in Christ.

 

[MrsJoy]

It's been mentioned a few times that sex for any other reason than to make babies is supposedly for "his gratification". Very interesting...

not to mention unbiblical.
or wait, perhaps all of the song of solomon was speaking only of pro-creation.

 

[MrsJoy]

I enjoy sex very much thank you. Making personal attacks against me to avoid addressing the issue will not work. I used to use the same lame tactics when I would argue the subject with Catholics. I refused to even consider the possibility that contraception could be wrong because it went against what I "wanted" to believe. But the bible truth was undeniable. Barrenness was never viewed as something to be valued. I pray you all will re-examine this issue with an open mind.
http://www.noroomforcontraception.com/Articles/Graduation-Speech-Selfish-contraception-020.htm
So yes, I enjoy sex, but I can do so without altering my body with devices, chemicals or surgery.

I find it quite interesting that you say your view is biblical and yet have not use a SINGLE verse to back up your view.

 

[MrsJoy]

So, if your birth control fails, then what?

then you accept the blessing from God and trust Him to take care of everything.
it's not that complicated.

http://www.omsoul.com/pamview.php?idnum=105

Psalm 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
Your confusing "common sense" with "sinful desires."

yes, God will always provide.
But, we are also told in Proverbs that those who fail to look ahead and go blindly on are fools.
And the man who did not measure the cost ahead of time in Christ's picture was also seen as such.
you keep referring to sex with bc as sinful desires.
back this up with GOD'S WORD. that is a HORRIBLE idea of man, NOT God in any way, shape or form.

The bible is repeatedly clear:
Children are a blessing
Barreness is a curse

children are a blessing. this does not mean we are commanded to have 10 or 12, or any ammount at that.
NOWHERE are we told such.
Bareness was seen in the HEBREW CULTURE as a curse.
NOWHERE in scripture is it said "bareness is a curse from God and you are in sin."
NOWHERE.

Exodus 23:25-26;

25 Worship the LORD your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.
a promise from God to HIS people at that time.
He was going to bless them.
not a thing about bareness being a curse.
not a command to have a certain amount of children.

Deut. 7:13-14

12 If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. 13 He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land—your grain, new wine and oil—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you. 14 You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor any of your livestock without young.
yet another promise to Israel if they obeyed God.

Lev.18:22-23;

22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
um ok...verses on sexual sins.
nothing to do with children.
nothing to do with bc.
relevance?

20:13

13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
same as above

Lev. 21:17,20

17 "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God.
21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God.

this is even more obscure and has even less to do with what is being discussed!!
what do direct commands about priestly duties and who may perform them have to do with bc???

Mal. 2:15

15 Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth.
this is a picture of Israel's unfaithfulness to God.
it is not even referring to physical husbands, wives and children, but how Israel had strayed from her love of GOD.
CONTEXT.
we cannot simply grab at scriptures and place value upon them.

The bible instructs husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, by giving his entire body to her and holding nothing back. With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This is self-centered, and not self-giving, life-giving or God-honoring.

and this is adding to God's Word.
MAN says that this is not giving everything.
the rest of that verse says "and gave His life for her". It is speaking of living a life of sacrifice and true love, it is not addressing pro-creation. not even remotely.

when you have some scripture that actually directly applies to this, please, do tell.

 

[MrsJoy]

Wow, I can't believe how much support FOR birth control there is in this thread, especially from Catholics. You say that the Bible has changed to fit our society and doesn't apply to us. Let me ask you this, when has Christianity changed? God has not changed. Birth control may be out dated for our modern times, but Christianity is also outdated. You don't have to try to read the Bible to find a reason why God is against birth control: first of all if we have something that is natural and is working perfectly (ie our reproductive organs) and it is meant for us to reproduce, then why do we play god and take nature in our own hands? We don't need to purposely break something that God intended to work.
My hat is off to you TC for defending this issue.

God also created us without clothing.
therefore I will not wear any, because that is how God naturally created me and how I function.

 

[MrsJoy]

Excuse me, but WHO here ever said this? Could you please quote whoever it was instead of generalizing?

not to mention that no scripture that acutally applies to this subject has actually been brought up.
how can one explain something away that is not there in the first place???

 

[MrsJoy]

Where did you ever hear that from?

The argument has always been that sex is meant to be both unative and procreative, and that children are a blessing from God and the physical manifestation of the union created by marriage.

Birth control deprives the act of one of its purposes, and is a rejection of God's gift of children. In one sense it is akin to bulimia as a form of gluttony.

using wisdom and science and planning is not saying no to God.
it is using wisdom.
we are told to do such things.
again, bc is not addressed in scripture.
i love that many have thrown ideas out there w/ out scripture to back it up.