Did this really happen?

[DailyBlessings]

Some of you are making this more difficult than it is. Don't think so hard. Do you believe or not. Or are you undecided as of yet. Pretty simple really.

Yeah, I do. And no, it isn't simple.

 

[Assyrian]

In order to have faith in God one has to know God. We know Him through a relationship that is anchored in His Word and it forms the foundation of our knowledge concerning Him. Faith without knowledge is blind, that's why it is so important to know Him and His truths which are so clearly shown to us in His Word. In order to know those truths effectively requires Bible study, prayer, action and more Bible study. Our faith is in Him and His Word alone not in science's ability to prove whether something He said did or did not occur.

We are all growing into the knowledge of God and have faith in him long before we know him fully.

But how can you grow in the knowledge of God and his word if nothing can shake mistaken interpretations which you cling to 'by faith' not in who God is, but in the trustworthiness of your system of interpretation?

The Jews have the same faith in their interpretation of the Messiah and are still looking forward to his coming which they don't allow to be shaken by the fact that he came and didn't do things quite the way they thought Messiah would. They firmly believe Messiah will come for the first time and do the things the know Messiah should have done all along.

A lot of people believed Christ was coming back in 1914 and don't allow the small fact that he didn't get in the way of their faith in God and his word, or rather in their interpretation of it.

There are people who still believe the bible teaches the earth stand still with the sun and stars rotating around it. They don't let science get in the way. How is their unshakable faith any different from yours?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Didn't literally happen. No physical evidence for such.

Didn't literally happen on a global scale. No physical evidence for such.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

No physical evidence either way.

no physical evidence that Christ rose from the dead, healed blindness, cast out demons, transfigured, ascended into heaven. Why beleive those?

 

[shernren]

no physical evidence that Christ rose from the dead, healed blindness, cast out demons, transfigured, ascended into heaven. Why beleive those?

No physical evidence either way. That is, we can't tell if there is any physical evidence that these things happened, or any physical evidence that these things didn't happen. By contrast, we see a lot of things that are difficult to explain within a young earth paradigm, i.e. a lot of physical evidence against a young earth and a recent global flood.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

no physical evidence that Christ rose from the dead, healed blindness, cast out demons, transfigured, ascended into heaven. Why beleive those?

because these elements of the Christian faith are believed on the basis of testimony not physical evidence. Even our legal systems recognize this difference in types of evidence. Those believers alive at the time of the Resurrection believed on the basis of physical evidence plus testimony, we have only their testimony as evidence that these events occurred.

however, if you have physical evidence for these things it would be appreciated, i'm sure, by many. the problem is the same thing that happened to the ossuary of James recently, physical evidence has the uncanny ability to cut both ways.

please, if you have evidence for "that Christ rose from the dead, healed blindness, cast out demons, transfigured, ascended into heaven. Why beleive those?" show us. i would find it at least a useful apologetic tool.

 

[Xaero]

I agree with gluadys that miracles ain't that simple, it could be a "hard" miracle, that means: direct violation of natural laws .. or it could be just coincidence, for example: water coming out of a rock, must not be "miracle water" that god "beamed" into the rock - it could be just a natural phenomena.

I have no problems to believe any of those miracles. I even had no problem in believing 6*24 hour creation regardless of all the scientifical problems i was aware of, but the scriptural and theological inconsistencies were too much.

 

[Mallon]

no physical evidence that Christ rose from the dead, healed blindness, cast out demons, transfigured, ascended into heaven. Why beleive those?

Predictably, shernren and rmwilliamsll's responses hold quite nicely. But since you quoted me...
Indeed, "no physical evidence either way" does not preclude me from believing something to be true. I don't need to see the risen body to have faith in Christ (John 20:29). As Paul said, if Christ had not risen, our faith would be in vain. I believe in Christ's resurrection because of both its multiple attestation and because of Christ's manifestation in my life. The latter is some of the best (admittedly subjective) evidence I have!
That said, I would equate the evidence for a young earth and global Flood with finding Christ's body in the tomb after the stone had been rolled away. If Christ's remaining body should reveal our misplaced faith, then I think the multiple attestation to the old age of the earth and localized nature of the Flood should show the same of YECs.

 

[pastorkevin73]

We are all growing into the knowledge of God and have faith in him long before we know him fully.

But how can you grow in the knowledge of God and his word if nothing can shake mistaken interpretations which you cling to 'by faith' not in who God is, but in the trustworthiness of your system of interpretation?

The Jews have the same faith in their interpretation of the Messiah and are still looking forward to his coming which they don't allow to be shaken by the fact that he came and didn't do things quite the way they thought Messiah would. They firmly believe Messiah will come for the first time and do the things the know Messiah should have done all along.

A lot of people believed Christ was coming back in 1914 and don't allow the small fact that he didn't get in the way of their faith in God and his word, or rather in their interpretation of it.

There are people who still believe the bible teaches the earth stand still with the sun and stars rotating around it. They don't let science get in the way. How is their unshakable faith any different from yours?

True faith is rooted in God.

 

[pastorkevin73]

It's funny how this has turned into a discussion when all I was asking if you believe or not or working through whether you believe or not that these events occured. I wonder, why is it so hard for some of you to answer the question and so easy to dance around the questions? Why not let you yes be yes, or your no be no, or just saying I don't know yet. All three are fine.

This thread wasn't intend to be a discussion. If you wish to discuss more, we can start a new thread on this to discuss.

 

[chaoschristian]

if you don't like the answers, then maybe you asked the wrong questions

if you are going to ask a TE a question and then not expect him to redefine the terms of the question, then you haven't really been paying attention

here's a quesion back at you:

God appears to you and says, "Pastorkevin73, look, you're a good mensch, but you getting a little verklempt in the head about this evolution stuff. Relax, don't be so literal. It didn't happen in six days, versteh? Love to talk, but I gotta run. Newton, Darwin, and Sammy Davis Jr. and I gotta tee time coming up."

Now in light of this direct revelation, do you loose faith, or do you reevaluate how you approach you faith?

It's funny how this has turned into a discussion when all I was asking if you believe or not or working through whether you believe or not that these events occured. I wonder, why is it so hard for some of you to answer the question and so easy to dance around the questions? Why not let you yes be yes, or your no be no, or just saying I don't know yet. All three are fine.

This thread wasn't intend to be a discussion. If you wish to discuss more, we can start a new thread on this to discuss.

 

[Mallon]

This thread wasn't intend to be a discussion. If you wish to discuss more, we can start a new thread on this to discuss.

Perhaps you should have specified "No discussion or deep thought allowed" at the start of the thread.

 

[pastorkevin73]

if you don't like the answers, then maybe you asked the wrong questions

if you are going to ask a TE a question and then not expect him to redefine the terms of the question, then you haven't really been paying attention

here's a quesion back at you:

God appears to you and says, "Pastorkevin73, look, you're a good mensch, but you getting a little verklempt in the head about this evolution stuff. Relax, don't be so literal. It didn't happen in six days, versteh? Love to talk, but I gotta run. Newton, Darwin, and Sammy Davis Jr. and I gotta tee time coming up."

Now in light of this direct revelation, do you loose faith, or do you reevaluate how you approach you faith?

LOL, Again evading the question.
Besides this question isn't just for TEs, its for everyone.

If anyone doesn't want to answer the question, thats fine, no one has to write in.

 

[pastorkevin73]

Perhaps you should have specified "No discussion or deep thought allowed" at the start of the thread.

Good thought. THanks.

 

[pastorkevin73]

If you wish to discuss this thread you are welcome to do so here.

 

[chaoschristian]

I did not evade your question, I responded directly to it earlier on. You just didn't like my response.

Now, are you going to evade my question?

LOL, Again evading the question.
Besides this question isn't just for TEs, its for everyone.

If anyone doesn't want to answer the question, thats fine, no one has to write in.

 

[Mallon]

Don't think so hard.

 

[Assyrian]

so easy to dance around the questions

LOL, Again evading the question.

Originally Posted by Assyrian
We are all growing into the knowledge of God and have faith in him long before we know him fully.

But how can you grow in the knowledge of God and his word if nothing can shake mistaken interpretations which you cling to 'by faith' not in who God is, but in the trustworthiness of your system of interpretation?

The Jews have the same faith in their interpretation of the Messiah and are still looking forward to his coming which they don't allow to be shaken by the fact that he came and didn't do things quite the way they thought Messiah would. They firmly believe Messiah will come for the first time and do the things the know Messiah should have done all along.

A lot of people believed Christ was coming back in 1914 and don't allow the small fact that he didn't get in the way of their faith in God and his word, or rather in their interpretation of it.

There are people who still believe the bible teaches the earth stand still with the sun and stars rotating around it. They don't let science get in the way. How is their unshakable faith any different from yours?

True faith is rooted in God.

 

[vossler]

We are all growing into the knowledge of God and have faith in him long before we know him fully.

But how can you grow in the knowledge of God and his word if nothing can shake mistaken interpretations which you cling to 'by faith' not in who God is, but in the trustworthiness of your system of interpretation?

What makes you thinks there isn't anything that can cause me to realize I've been mistaken in how I've interpreted Scripture? I'm always open to and welcome anyone that can point out mistakes in how I interpret the Bible, even TEs.

The thing is, it had better be a biblically based correction.

The Jews have the same faith in their interpretation of the Messiah and are still looking forward to his coming which they don't allow to be shaken by the fact that he came and didn't do things quite the way they thought Messiah would. They firmly believe Messiah will come for the first time and do the things the know Messiah should have done all along.

Of course neither you or I agree with their view. It's kind of difficult to come up with an agreement with someone who doesn't hold to your same foundational truths and worldview. I see the Jew being no different than the atheist in this regard.

A lot of people believed Christ was coming back in 1914 and don't allow the small fact that he didn't get in the way of their faith in God and his word, or rather in their interpretation of it.

There were over 900 people who believed Jim Jones was God. It still comes down to this, was their belief scripturally sound. Given that there were no Bibles in their camp, is it any surprise as to what happened?

There are people who still believe the bible teaches the earth stand still with the sun and stars rotating around it. They don't let science get in the way. How is their unshakable faith any different from yours?

There are also people who believe that the Bible says that money is the root of all evil. People have and will always believe things that are wrong, that in no way excuses us. We are told to be like the Bereans and search the scriptures for the truth. Few of us do. Many people have an unshakable faith in all sorts of things, most has no scriptural foundation whatsoever; some of it would be humorous if the eternal consequences were not so grave. The bottom line is and will always be, how does any claim line up with Scripture? My faith is based upon the never changing rock of God's Word and therefore is strong.

 

[Assyrian]

What makes you thinks there isn't anything that can cause me to realize I've been mistaken in how I've interpreted Scripture? I'm always open to and welcome anyone that can point out mistakes in how I interpret the Bible, even TEs.

The thing is, it had better be a biblically based correction.

Why should it only be a biblical based correction? I have just given a number of examples where people's wrong interpretations were correct by facts instead of biblically based arguments. Your answer was that they were the same as atheists or were simply wrong about what the bible said, whereas you are a Spirit filled believer and know what the right interpretation is.

The other problem is that we have given you biblically based arguments but you don't accept them, because again, you know what the right interpretation is.

Of course neither you or I agree with their view. It's kind of difficult to come up with an agreement with someone who doesn't hold to your same foundational truths and worldview. I see the Jew being no different than the atheist in this regard.

Rom 3:1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision?
2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.
God entrusted the Jews with with the very prophecies that foretold the Messiah. So what were they to do when the facts said there was this guy claiming to be the Messiah healing the sick and raising the dead, including himself. Yet their interpretation of the prophecies told of a very different messiah. What should they have done? Stick with what the 'knew' the scriptures taught or let the evidence correct their interpretation?

There were over 900 people who believed Jim Jones was God. It still comes down to this, was their belief scripturally sound. Given that there were no Bibles in their camp, is it any surprise as to what happened?

I think those 900 since changed their interpretation. But we are not talking about people without bibles we are talking about people who had.

Lets say you became a believer during the Second Great Awakening. Your life was transformed and you were gripped by a hunger for the Word of God. As many in those days you were convinced the scriptures clearly taught the Lord's return sometime around 1844. You even sold your farm to devote your life to the study of His Word and preaching to prepare God's people for the great day.

Yet the raw facts showed 1844 come and go with no sign of Christ's return. What do you do? Do you throw it all in and go back to women, booze and debauchery? Do you throw yourself on God and try to rebuild your understanding of his word?

Or do you staunchly refuse to admit your interpretation was wrong and come up with some other explanation. The Last Judgment did begin in 1844 and this is simply a period of unseen 'investigative judgment'. After all the bible is never wrong is it?

This was the answer of the Seventh Day Adventists. The people who showed us the unshakable doctrine of Christ's return in 1844 also gave the wider church the unshakable doctrine of Young Earth Creationism.

We must never let the facts get in the way of a good doctrine

There are also people who believe that the Bible says that money is the root of all evil. People have and will always believe things that are wrong, that in no way excuses us. We are told to be like the Bereans and search the scriptures for the truth. Few of us do. Many people have an unshakable faith in all sorts of things, most has no scriptural foundation whatsoever; some of it would be humorous if the eternal consequences were not so grave. The bottom line is and will always be, how does any claim line up with Scripture? My faith is based upon the never changing rock of God's Word and therefore is strong.

Like Luther's firm conviction, based on the unchanging rock of God's Word, that Copernicus was a fool.

 

[vossler]

Why should it only be a biblical based correction?

Because the Bible is God's living, perfect and complete revelation. Once one realizes that, how can one entertain anything that is contrary to that?

I have just given a number of examples where people's wrong interpretations were correct by facts instead of biblically based arguments. Your answer was that they were the same as atheists or were simply wrong about what the bible said, whereas you are a Spirit filled believer and know what the right interpretation is.

You gave the example of Jews and cults, neither are Christians and therefore wouldn't even be viable interpretations to begin with. If you'd like to compare a Christians interpretation of Scripture with a non-Christians that's up to you, but I'll follow what the Word of God says on that subject.

1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
​

The other problem is that we have given you biblically based arguments but you don't accept them, because again, you know what the right interpretation is.

I don't recall a biblically based argument we've had, please enlighten further.

God entrusted the Jews with with the very prophecies that foretold the Messiah. So what were they to do when the facts said there was this guy claiming to be the Messiah healing the sick and raising the dead, including himself. Yet their interpretation of the prophecies told of a very different messiah. What should they have done? Stick with what the 'knew' the scriptures taught or let the evidence correct their interpretation?

They should have opened their hearts to God and He would have revealed the Truth to them, sadly, most didn't. Given that their efforts were man-centered instead of God-centered they failed miserably, as it will be with us when we do likewise.

I think those 900 since changed their interpretation. But we are not talking about people without bibles we are talking about people who had.

Lots of people have Bibles today, unless they have a personal relationship with God that guides them to open and study their Bibles it means nothing.

Lets say you became a believer during the Second Great Awakening. Your life was transformed and you were gripped by a hunger for the Word of God. As many in those days you were convinced the scriptures clearly taught the Lord's return sometime around 1844. You even sold your farm to devote your life to the study of His Word and preaching to prepare God's people for the great day.

Yet the raw facts showed 1844 come and go with no sign of Christ's return. What do you do? Do you throw it all in and go back to women, booze and debauchery? Do you throw yourself on God and try to rebuild your understanding of his word?

I can be convinced of a lot of things if I allow my flesh to control me or allow non-biblical theology to dominate my life. The fact of the matter is, there was no biblical basis from which to conclude that Christ was going to return in 1844. Just because someone is sincerely convicted of it enough to sell their farm doesn't make a lie anymore the truth. Before anyone accepts an idea as the truth, they had better make sure it is supported by the Word of God. Those folks didn't and had to pay the price for their mistake.

Or do you staunchly refuse to admit your interpretation was wrong and come up with some other explanation. The Last Judgment did begin in 1844 and this is simply a period of unseen 'investigative judgment'. After all the bible is never wrong is it?

This was the answer of the Seventh Day Adventists. The people who showed us the unshakable doctrine of Christ's return in 1844 also gave the wider church the unshakable doctrine of Young Earth Creationism.

If you wish to believe that the Seventh Day Adventists gave us the unshakable doctrine of a young earth please go right ahead and believe. That falls right in line with folks who are easily susceptible to accepting all sorts of extra biblical evidence as the truth.

Like Luther's firm conviction, based on the unchanging rock of God's Word, that Copernicus was a fool.

No one has all the answers, Luther didn't, I don't and neither do you. We all make mistakes, but at least Luther based his on what he sincerely thought the Bible said.