Martin Luther

[BeforeThereWas]

The Hebrew word in Genesis translated as "good" is NOT the same, nor does it carry the same connotation, as the word for "perfect."

Are you a language scholar? What do you know about the Greek and Hebrew languages? Are you fluent in both, and therefore have a legitimately deep grasp of the deeper inplications of key words?

Do you use the word like in almost every fourth or fifth sentence you speak?

Setting language aside for the moment, let's look at this from a different perspective:

The Lord stated that those things were good before the fall, which is the point at which suffering, sin and death entered the world.

So, are you then going to tell us that the Lord created that which was imperfect, meaning that it was still in some way flawed, and yet still good, before the fall?

Are you saying, therefore, that Adam and Eve were less than perfect before he sinned, and yet he would have lived forever without the advent of sin and death?

There are many more examples of the plethora of problems you're creating with that line of thinking. but this should suffice for now.

Remember that I agree with you that the two words are not one and the same in the Hebrew, although there are several Hebrew words translated perfect in our biblical texts, and each one has a different meaning, some of which could be classified as good. The same thing is true of the Greek and English languages.

I can say, "My wife is a perfect match for me, which is a good thing." As you can see, these two different words can indeed cross the technical limits of lingual definition, and share a deeper meaning that makes them synonymous.

BTW&DM

 

[Melethiel]

Do you use the word like in almost every fourth or fifth sentence you speak?

No. What does this have to do with anything?

Are you saying, therefore, that Adam and Eve were less than perfect before he sinned, and yet he would have lived forever without the advent of sin and death?

If they would have lived forever, why did God place the Tree of Life in the Garden?

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Pslam 95

According to the Hebrew dictionary, the Hebrew word translated rest in that passage refers to a rest that takes place within an abode. Where is God's abode? In Heaven. The unbelievers and the unrighteous will not enter his abode.

The Hebrew dictionary states that the word referencing the Lord's rest on the seventh day is defined as follows:

7673 shabath (shaw-bath');
a primitive root; to repose, i.e. desist from exertion; used in many implied relations (causative, figurative or specific):

In other words, it has no similarity to an abode. The definition of the Lord's rest in Genesis has not even a remote meaning of an abode.

Hebrews 3:

The Thayer's Greek Lexicon also concurs with the Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew dictionary in this passage:

2663 katapausis-
1) a putting to rest,
a calming of the winds
2) a resting place;
metaphorically, the heavenly blessedness in which God dwells, and of which He has promised to make persevering believers in Christ partakers after the toils and trials of life on earth are ended.

Hebrews 4:

Its the same word as your Hebrews 3 reference.

In other words, God's day of rest is eternal. The seventh day is, from God's PoV, eternal.

In accordance with the above quotes right out of the lingual dictionaries, you are in error. The dictionaries clearly nullify your premises, therefore your conclusion is in error.

BTW&DM

 

[BeforeThereWas]

No. What does this have to do with anything?

Just curious.

If they would have lived forever, why did God place the Tree of Life in the Garden?

It's interesting that you completely avoided my other questions to you. I'll give you my answer to this if you'll answer my other questions...

BTW&DM

 

[Melethiel]

Are you a language scholar? What do you know about the Greek and Hebrew languages? Are you fluent in both, and therefore have a legitimately deep grasp of the deeper inplications of key words?

I do know five languages, at various degrees of fluency. Pretty good in Greek. Not much experience in Hebrew, I'll admit, but lexicons are easy to find. I've also talked to people who are fluent in Hebrew.

The Lord stated that those things were good before the fall, which is the point at which suffering, sin and death entered the world.

So, are you then going to tell us that the Lord created that which was imperfect, meaning that it was still in some way flawed, and yet still good, before the fall?

You are making some assumptions that I do not hold to, so I can't really answer the question.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

For the sake of continuity, here's the original statement you made about this topic:

The Hebrew word in Genesis translated as "good" is NOT the same, nor does it carry the same connotation, as the word for "perfect."

You later stated:

You are making some assumptions that I do not hold to, so I can't really answer the question.

Assumptions? This is an odd response coming from someone who entered the fray with enough confidence in herself to try and set me straight by emphatically demanding that the two words, one from the Greek and one from the Hebrew, were two different words.

I agreed with you.

I then demonstrated from a formidable and widely accepted Greek Lexicon and a very reputable Hebrew dictionay that the two words had very similar meanings, both of which speak of a rest within an abode.

Neither of those two words had anything to do with ceasing from one's labors, as was the case with the term rest in Genesis.

Now, if I'm wrong, as you indicated, then please demonstrate to me how I'm wrong in relation to your own beliefs, and please provide backing from lexicons and/or dictionaries. This has nothing to do with assumptions, but everything to do with facts verified from reliable sources.

Your disagreement with me, and accusation that I'm relying on assumptions, indicates that you have something solid upon which you've rested your beliefs. I'd really like to see this evidence you allegedly are basing your views upon. In other words, please don't brush me aside like you did in that last post.

Productive posting has everything to do with backing statements made against another's beliefs/understanding.

BTW&DM

 

[Melethiel]

For the sake of continuity, here's the original statement you made about this topic:



You later stated:



Assumptions? This is an odd response coming from someone who entered the fray with enough confidence in herself to try and set me straight by emphatically demanding that the two words, one from the Greek and one from the Hebrew, were two different words.

I agreed with you.

I then demonstrated from a formidable and widely accepted Greek Lexicon and a very reputable Hebrew dictionay that the two words had very similar meanings, both of which speak of a rest within an abode.

Neither of those two words had anything to do with ceasing from one's labors, as was the case with the term rest in Genesis.

Now, if I'm wrong, as you indicated, then please demonstrate to me how I'm wrong in relation to your own beliefs, and please provide backing from lexicons and/or dictionaries. This has nothing to do with assumptions, but everything to do with facts verified from reliable sources.

Your disagreement with me, and accusation that I'm relying on assumptions, indicates that you have something solid upon which you've rested your beliefs. I'd really like to see this evidence you allegedly are basing your views upon. In other words, please don't brush me aside like you did in that last post.

Productive posting has everything to do with backing statements made against another's beliefs/understanding.

BTW&DM

I think you have me confused with someone else. I never spoke about "rest".

 

[Bill777]

Martin Luther needs to be remembered for rescuing the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone without any regard to works. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ that Luther brought back to light. He also brought to light the importance of reading scripture and having scripture accessible to the public.

Luther was a man of God, possibly the greatest theologian that ever lived. He sinned many times and he admitted it just like David admits in the Psalms that he has sinned many times.

 

[Rick Otto]

as at least a few of the popes.

 

[Punchy]

Martin Luther needs to be remembered for rescuing the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone without any regard to works.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man will come in the glory of his Father with his holy angels; and then he will reward each man according to his works.

Matthew 25
31 ¶ When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all his holy angels with him, then he will sit upon the throne of his glory.
32 And all nations will gather before him; and he will separate them one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 And he will set the sheep at his right, and the goats at his left.
34 Then the King will say to those at his right, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom which has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger and you took me in;
36 I was naked, and you covered me; I was sick, and you visited me; I was in prison, and you came to me.
37 Then the righteous will say to him, Our Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you? or thirsty and gave you drink?
38 And when did we see you a stranger, and took you in? Or that you were naked, and covered you?
39 And when did we see you sick, or in the prison, and come to you?
40 The king then will answer and say to them, Truly I tell you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of these least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he will also say to those at his left, Go away from me, you cursed, to the everlasting fire, which is prepared for the adversary and his angels.
42 For I was hungry, and you did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and you did not give me to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not take me in; I was naked, and you did not cover me; I was sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
44 Then they also will answer and say, Our lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick or in the prison, and did not minister to you?
45 Then he will answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of these least ones, you also did not do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting torment, and the righteous into eternal life.

Romans 2
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To those who continue patiently in good works, seeking glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8 But to those who are stubborn and do not obey the truth, but obey iniquity, he will render indignation and wrath;
9 He will render suffering and affliction, for every man who does evil, for the Jews first, and also for the Arameans;
10 But glory, honor and peace for every one who does good
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who shall be justified.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Rick Otto]

There is no need to justify what hasn't yet happened.

 

[mike1reynolds]

He [Martin Luthar] wasn't half as bad as at least a few of the popes.

A very safe statement that is almost certainly true, but was he comparable to exemplary Popes? That is the more meaningful question.

 

[Rick Otto]

would be the admission they are ALL mere men.

 

[E.C.]

would be the admission they are ALL mere men.

And as men are completely vulnerable to corruption.

Luther was a man of God, possibly the greatest theologian that ever lived.

I would have to disagree there especially when a name such as Athanasius comes to mind.

 

[Rick Otto]

Bill meant the greatest - considering his handicaps.
God & Jesus are the best theologans on record.
Thank God for the records.

 

[Bill777]

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man will come in the glory of his Father with his holy angels; and then he will reward each man according to his works.

Matthew 25
31 ¶ When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all his holy angels with him, then he will sit upon the throne of his glory.
32 And all nations will gather before him; and he will separate them one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 And he will set the sheep at his right, and the goats at his left.
34 Then the King will say to those at his right, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom which has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger and you took me in;
36 I was naked, and you covered me; I was sick, and you visited me; I was in prison, and you came to me.
37 Then the righteous will say to him, Our Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you? or thirsty and gave you drink?
38 And when did we see you a stranger, and took you in? Or that you were naked, and covered you?
39 And when did we see you sick, or in the prison, and come to you?
40 The king then will answer and say to them, Truly I tell you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of these least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he will also say to those at his left, Go away from me, you cursed, to the everlasting fire, which is prepared for the adversary and his angels.
42 For I was hungry, and you did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and you did not give me to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not take me in; I was naked, and you did not cover me; I was sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
44 Then they also will answer and say, Our lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick or in the prison, and did not minister to you?
45 Then he will answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of these least ones, you also did not do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting torment, and the righteous into eternal life.

Romans 2
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To those who continue patiently in good works, seeking glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8 But to those who are stubborn and do not obey the truth, but obey iniquity, he will render indignation and wrath;
9 He will render suffering and affliction, for every man who does evil, for the Jews first, and also for the Arameans;
10 But glory, honor and peace for every one who does good
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who shall be justified.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I will repeat my original statement that you replied to: "Martin Luther needs to be remembered for rescuing the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone without any regard to works." This statement is accurate and none of the biblical quotations that you posted contradicts salvation by grace through faith alone without any regards to works whatsoever. Human works are totally irrelevant for salvation because salvation is a gift from God where He shows His mercy, there is no human merit to salvation, there's nothing that even remotely relates to works in God's salvation of man.

All the bible verses you are talking about (except James) refer to the judgment when all works will be exposed. No flesh is justified by works, for through the Law there is knowledge of sin.

With regard to James, all that he means is that as a result of our faith in Jesus we produce fruit or good works. James is talking about Abraham, and how his faith produced works. James is not talking about work righteousness.

 

[Punchy]

With regard to James, all that he means is that as a result of our faith in Jesus we produce fruit or good works.

This is exactly what 20th century Western eyes have conditioned you to believe, not what James actually meant and believed.

 

[Bill777]

This is exactly what 20th century Western eyes have conditioned you to believe, not what James actually meant and believed.

No, it's not. It's what the bible says and it's what Luther and Calvin taught way before the 20th century.

And by the way there is a lot of work righteousness in the church today, the evangelical church is more about works and self improvement, than faith in Jesus Christ. Although like the catholic church prior to Luther has proven when man abandons the gospel (salvation by grace through faith alone, apart from any works) he is incapable of producing any good works.

 

[Punchy]

No, it's not. It's what the bible says and it's what Luther and Calvin taught way before the 20th century.

And by the way there is a lot of work righteousness in the church today, the evangelical church is more about works and self improvement, than faith in Jesus Christ. Although like the catholic church prior to Luther has proven when man abandons the gospel (salvation by grace through faith alone, apart from any works) he is incapable of producing any good works.

Christianity did not begin with the Reformation. The question you must ask is how those who first preached the Gospel actually understood it. Have you no appreciation for history?

 

[Bill777]

Christianity did not begin with the Reformation. The question you must ask is how those who first preached the Gospel actually understood it. Have you no appreciation for history?

From reading the Pauline epistles to the early churches I have to conclude that Luther and Paul understood the gospel in the same way, salvation by grace through faith alone, apart from any works. The apostle Paul and the Reformers preach the same gospel. The catholic church was not preaching the gospel and Luther pointed it out.