Prayers to Mary in concerning Matthew

[ScottBot]

Well, in all fairness I reckon I can.

However, I don't think that that alludes to her also interceding for us in heaven.

Why not? You do believe that she is there with her Son, don't you?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Also known as Mariolotry 101. Please open your bibles to .......

An EXCELLENT idea!!


Here are all the Scriptures that mention her:

Matthew 1:16, 1:18, 1:20, 2:11, 13:55
Mark 6:3
Luke 1:27, 1:30, 1:34,1:38, 1:39, 1:41, 1:46, 1:56, 2:5, 2:16, 2:19, 2:34
Acts 1:14



Would you like to do that in this thread?
I'd suggest you begin a new thread.

A study of the verses would probably be helpful.



Thank you!


Pax!


- Josiah

 

[ScottBot]

An EXCELLENT idea!!


Here are all the Scriptures that mention her:

Matthew 1:16, 1:18, 1:20, 2:11, 13:55
Mark 6:3
Luke 1:27, 1:30, 1:34,1:38, 1:39, 1:41, 1:46, 1:56, 2:5, 2:16, 2:19, 2:34
Acts 1:14



Would you like to do that in this thread?
I'd suggest you begin a new thread.

A study of the verses would probably be helpful.



Thank you!


Pax!


- Josiah

A study of Scripture outside of Apostolic Tradition would be fruitless at best.

 

[Jerrysch]

Blind assertion. Prove it with the text. I've shown that marriage was in view in the phrase preceding and the sentence following.

If Jesus was not the product of a virgin birth, the whole New Testament falls appart, in that He would then by Joseph's son. That is the consept in mind. The idea of a woman remaining a virgin throughout her life is one that is brought to the text of Scripture. There is just not any good reason to come to this conclusion, in that she had sons and daughters other than Jesus. ow if there were no brothers and sisters, well maybe you'd have a case, but with them, well the Scriptures are against your tradition.

 

[Jerrysch]

Moreover, the idea of a virgin birth was not widespread in Judaism. There's no reason to believe this was the central polemic of Matthew. While the central polemic of Matthew's infancy narrative was the fulfillment of prophecy, the Hebrew of Isaiah refers to a young woman, not a virgin; and while the LXX does refer to a virgin, it never seemed to enter into Hebrew thought or practice.

?

The fact that the Scholars of the LXX rendered the word virgin indicated that the Jews came back later and revisited the Hebrew text to purge this from it to take this evidence away from the body of Messiah.

 

[Jerrysch]

Your New American Bible? Check my faith icon, friend.

.

Woops!!!!!!!!!!

My mistake I didn't look

 

[Jerrysch]

First of all, the text doesn't say three. It lists four male children after Jesus (James, Joses, Jude, and Simon) and at least two sisters.

However, the term is aldelphoi. This does not necessarily mean 'brothers' or 'sisters.' It can mean almost any type of relative.


There's nothing in the New Testament to rule out her perpetual virginity. It's an acceptible pious opinion.

Late responce...........

The word which we get sister Adelphe is quite a bit narrower than the word rendered brother from the Greek. And yet when the pure literal meaning is abandoned in favor of a figurative meaning the burden for that shift lies upon the "shifter" not on the one who insists upon a literal meaning. You need to give evidence that we should consider these useages of brother(s) sister(s) are no to be understood in thier literal sence.

 

[Jerrysch]

There's nothing in the New Testament to rule out her perpetual virginity. It's an acceptible pious opinion.

Except for the meaning of the text itself. The burden of proof is upon them who deny the literal meaning of these passages,

 

[Jerrysch]

Look, I'm not defending the doctrine of the perpetual virginity. I don't hold it as a doctrine, because I'm not Catholic.

But this Protestant anti-Catholicism is just nonsense. I mean, why must she have had sex? Because Catholics say she didn't?

There is just nothing in the Bible to deny her perpetual virginity. Stop trying to find it because ya'll don't like Catholicism.

Apparantly you do not see the bigger picture in all of this. This is the first step to making Mary the mediator between man and God. This is an attempt to maintain the purity of the Christian doctrine. We are all mortals Mary the mother of Jesus inluded, we all need a savior, each and every one of us, Doctrinal truth should never be compromised.

 

[Jerrysch]

Why does it matter so much that she had sex? Do Catholic dogmas really bother ya'll that much?

Yes they do. I have been discussing other issues on other threads along this line. They bother me because RC dogma is chiefly based upon RC tradition which when it difers with Scripture is lifted up while the Scripture is diminished. Granted the sex life of a woman 2k years ago has little to do with my eternal life, yet by way of this dogma, the Scriptures are being diminished.

 

[leothelioness]

Why not? You do believe that she is there with her Son, don't you?

Yes, but I don't believe that means she intercedes from heaven. I will also be in heaven one day, but I don't think I will be interceding for people.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

If Jesus was not the product of a virgin birth, the whole New Testament falls appart, in that He would then by Joseph's son.

I agree. I just don't see why 'came together' necessarily refers to sex and not marriage, when the preceding phrase and the succeeding verse are refering to marriage.

Woops!!!!!!!!!!

My mistake I didn't look

No problem. As a former evangelical, non-denominational Arminian Dispenasationalist, I'm almost proud that someone could make this mistake...

The word which we get sister Adelphe is quite a bit narrower than the word rendered brother from the Greek. And yet when the pure literal meaning is abandoned in favor of a figurative meaning the burden for that shift lies upon the "shifter" not on the one who insists upon a literal meaning. You need to give evidence that we should consider these useages of brother(s) sister(s) are no to be understood in thier literal sence.

This is a good point. While the male form is quite broad, I'll admit that the female form tends to mean sister more often. At the same time, it doesn't necessarily have to mean sister. I maintain the text is ambiguous- and here we may have to just agree to disagree.

Apparantly you do not see the bigger picture in all of this. This is the first step to making Mary the mediator between man and God.

Hi, I'm Lutheran. I have a nigh-dogmatic commitment to Solus Christus and Sola Gratia.

I ascribe a lot of titles and devotions to Mary. Theotokos, Mother of God, Ever-Virgin, Queen of Heaven, Mother of the Church.

But I can assure you, there are titles which I do not ascribe to her- first as foremost being Co-Mediatrix, Co-Redemptrix, and the Immaculate Conception.

And I don't quite understand how perpetual virginity leads to co-mediation, anyway....

Granted the sex life of a woman 2k years ago has little to do with my eternal life,

Yes and this is why I would never try and convince you to hold her perpetual virginity as a doctrinal truth. It's not, and I think the Catholic attempt to make it a doctrinal truth upon which our continuance within Mother Church rests is a travesty.

I'm only trying to defend it as a valid pious opinion within a Bible-believing framework.

Yes, but I don't believe that means she intercedes from heaven. I will also be in heaven one day, but I don't think I will be interceding for people.

Well, when I participate in church on Sundays I pray for 'all the people of the church of God,' which includes you.

And when I get to heaven, I'll be praying for you there if I beat you to it.

 

[repentant]

First of all, the text doesn't say three. It lists four male children after Jesus (James, Joses, Jude, and Simon) and at least two sisters.

However, the term is aldelphoi. This does not necessarily mean 'brothers' or 'sisters.' It can mean almost any type of relative.


There's nothing in the New Testament to rule out her perpetual virginity. It's an acceptible pious opinion.

Late responce...........

The word which we get sister Adelphe is quite a bit narrower than the word rendered brother from the Greek. And yet when the pure literal meaning is abandoned in favor of a figurative meaning the burden for that shift lies upon the "shifter" not on the one who insists upon a literal meaning. You need to give evidence that we should consider these useages of brother(s) sister(s) are no to be understood in thier literal sence.

Jerry, do you know that the true mother of the names above, the ones who are called Jesus' brother's, are in Scripture?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Jerry, do you know that the true mother of the names above, the ones who are called Jesus' brother's, are in Scripture?

Mary wife of Clopas, right?

 

[repentant]

Mary wife of Clopas, right?

YAY!!

And James (the Apostle called the Lord's brother) and Joses are the Sons of Zebedee as well..

 

[leothelioness]

Well, when I participate in church on Sundays I pray for 'all the people of the church of God,' which includes you.

I think more Christians should do this. I certainly will.

And when I get to heaven, I'll be praying for you there if I beat you to it.

Thank you for that, brother. And one day I shall come and join you.

 

[ScottBot]

Yes, but I don't believe that means she intercedes from heaven. I will also be in heaven one day, but I don't think I will be interceding for people.

That is a very sad position to take. You don't think that while standing in the face of Jesus, you wouldn't make a prayer for a brother or sister?

 

[ScottBot]

I think more Christians should do this. I certainly will.



Thank you for that, brother. And one day I shall come and join you.

I thought you just said that you aren't going to intercede for anyone?

 

[IamAdopted]

And what do you pray for Mary to intercede for you to Jesus for?

 

[ModernDaySpyridon]

And what do you pray for Mary to intercede for you to Jesus for?

One of the prayers that Orthodox use often says...

And using thy boldness as a mother, entreat thy son and our God that he may open even unto me his loving compassions, that overlooking my innumerable trespasses, he would turn me to repentance and make me the approved doer of his commandments.

Mary, as the mother of Jesus, knows him better than anyone else who has ever lived. So we ask her, because her heart is closer to his than ours and she has the "boldness of a mother," to pray for the salvation of the world and the protection of the Church. After all, the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.