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Prayers to Mary in concerning Matthew

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Buzzbee

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In the past I thought about something, that is that some say they pray to the Virgin Mary, sometimes I have heard her called Our Lady of Guadalupe, or the Lady of such-and-such place. With the doctrine on the Virgin Mary and praying to her I remembered two verses in the Gospel of Matthew that has caused concern. The following verses are as follows

"When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." (Matthew 1:24-25 NASB)


" He [Jesus] came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?

"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

"And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" (Matthew 13: 54-56 NASB).

By these two verses, we see that Mary had four sons, James, Joseph (Jr.), Simon and Judas and at least two daughters - this comes from the fact that the original Greek is plural - by her husband Joseph. I quoted from the New American Standard Bible (NASB) because it is the most literal translation for English available today.

Through the daughters and the some of Simon, Judas, and Joseph Jr., Mary and Joseph had the opportunity to have descendents. It is uncertain under James because the book of the Acts of the Apostles, a writing credited to Luke, says that he was killed by a sword. I do not know if he married and had children or descendents. The main point is that it is almost 2,000 years since Mary and Joseph had children and the significance is that is very probable for them to have living descendents today.

This leads to one concern for the doctrine to praying to Mary and petitioning her as some Catholic branches do. If she has living descendents, then it means that any who act according to the doctrine about the Virgin Mary, then it would literally be praying to their ancestor. Yet, the Bible clearly shows that the dead cannot hear petitions of prayer and the First Commandment is clear, "You shall have no other gods before me." The ramification for this command is that prayers and petitions can be only directed to the one God and no one else, whether it is angels or saintly men and women.

I did pray to Mary a few times, but then stopped because it was pointless to ask someone who could not hear them if I did them silently in the heart when God could hear them and only He could do anything about the prayers in the first place.

In the end, prayers to Mary or saints in pointless because they can not hear them and God wants us only to pray to Him directly.
 
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bella1955

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This post is VERY bogus. Mary DID NOT have ANY other children. You hear this nonsense from anti-Catholics or sites that are so. What Bible do you quote from?? Imagine Mary naming one of her kids JUDAS..this approach toward the Catholic faith is what othr faiths are confused about. When people like this come on and defame Our Blessed Mother.
My advice to you is to learn how to pray the Rosary to her,and read all about her apparitons over the centuries.
Jesus was Divine. Her task was to give birth to the Son of God and nothing more. "ALL NATIONS WILL CALL ME BLESS-ED".
 
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ScottBot

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Welcome class, to Non-Catholic Misunderstandings of Catholicism 101. Today's lesson will be on Mary...
Also known as Mariolotry 101. Please open your bibles to .......
 
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thereselittleflower

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Welcome class, to Non-Catholic Misunderstandings of Catholicism 101. Today's lesson will be on Mary...
:D


Great idea for a class! Maybe we could call it

Non-Catholic Myths of Catholicism 101​

We could pair it with

Non-Catholic Myths of Bible Interpretation 101​


What do you think?



.
 
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ScottBot

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:D


Great idea for a class! Maybe we could call it

Non-Catholic Myths of Catholicism 101​

We could pair it with

Non-Catholic Myths of Bible Interpretation 101​


What do you think?



.
As long as we don't actually have to USE our bibles.
 
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Buzzbee

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In my orginial post I am in no way attacking the whole of the Catholic Church. I respect them quite well, so please no more acussations of that.

I speak to one point and that is the specific aspect of people praying to the Virgin Mary.

In response to the second responder of this thread, I can say this with great validity in research. The epistle of James and the epsitle of Jude, another way you can call someone named Judas, were written by James and Judas. They were half-brothers of Jesus, born to Mary.

In the Gospel of Matthew, it is mentioned she gave birth to Jesus, then sexually consumated the marriage to her husband, Joseph.
 
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ScottBot

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In my orginial post I am in no way attacking the whole of the Catholic Church. I respect them quite well, so please no more acussations of that.

I speak to one point and that is the specific aspect of people praying to the Virgin Mary.

In response to the second responder of this thread, I can say this with great validity in research. The epistle of James and the epsitle of Jude, another way you can call someone named Judas, were written by James and Judas. They were half-brothers of Jesus, born to Mary.

In the Gospel of Matthew, it is mentioned she gave birth to Jesus, then sexually consumated the marriage to her husband, Joseph.
It only says that if you read Scripture with a Western context of culture and a complete lack of understanding of the idioms of expression in Aramaic.
 
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BigNorsk

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What the Catholics are talking about is that the words translated brothers and sisters can mean not just those we would refer to that way, but also cousins, so it is possible that the people there referenced were Jesus' cousins.

I think one must concede that it is indeed possible that Mary had no other children, the text just doesn't really say she did.

Now there is another area where there is dispute. That is that people argue that even though the text says that Joseph did not know her until Jesus was born. It of course doesn't really say that he knew her after Jesus was born so the arguement is that we again can't know that from scripture either.

However, it does say Joseph took Mary as his woman, and the normal meaning of that phrase does indeed include sex, hence the necessity of the following phrase that says not until Jesus was born. Are there cases of sexless marriage among the Jews? Seems to be some, but quite rare and it would not be understood that way normally.

So the scriptural evidence would pretty clearly say that Mary and Joseph had sex, they may or may not have had children.

It only really becomes important at all when doctrines and dogmas are added that claim the Immaculate Conception and such other things about Mary.

Added to that a general belief by many that sex is always in some way sinful despite the scriptural proof that God declared the marriage bed undefiled.

It matters not a wit if Mary and Joseph had sexual relations after Jesus' birth. If it was important, it would have been spelled out. Certainly if they did, and they probably did since that would indeed be represented by the idiom of taking Mary as his woman, it in no way defiled Mary, nor was it dishonoring to God. We should also probably add at this point that people were told not to abstain except for short periods of time and so on. But we see this false image of pietism built up around Mary and Joseph that seems to mostly come from gnostic writings and yet has stayed with large segments of the church. The image of Joseph and indeed of Mary as some superhuman perfect servants of Jesus doesn't really fit scripture. For instance, it is hard to believe that image and reconcile it with the fact that they lost Jesus when they went to Jerusalem and it was only after traveling a distance that they noticed the fact and returned to find him in the temple. And of course there is Jesus' first recorded miracle where Mary asked him for wine so the party wouldn't get over even though he admonishes her that she knows his time has not yet come.

In any case, scripture tells us what we need to know, Joseph and Mary were man and wife, Mary was a virgin when Jesus was miraculously born. Beyond that, little is told us, and certainly nothing else about Mary should rise to the level of dogma that people must believe.

Marv
 
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thereselittleflower

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In my orginial post I am in no way attacking the whole of the Catholic Church. I respect them quite well, so please no more acussations of that.

I speak to one point and that is the specific aspect of people praying to the Virgin Mary.

In response to the second responder of this thread, I can say this with great validity in research. The epistle of James and the epsitle of Jude, another way you can call someone named Judas, were written by James and Judas. They were half-brothers of Jesus, born to Mary.

In the Gospel of Matthew, it is mentioned she gave birth to Jesus, then sexually consumated the marriage to her husband, Joseph.

Joseph, so are you saying that when the word "brothers" is used, it must always, without exception, be understood to be referring to blood brothers from the same womb?


Is that what you are claiming here?



.
 
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Montanaman

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i just wanna say thank you to big norsk for responding to the op in a positive fashion. :thumbsup:

I think we have, considering everything in his post has been discussed thousands of times on this board and elsewhere. His post consisted almost entirely of non-Catholic cliches.
 
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strayed

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I think we have, considering everything in his post has been discussed thousands of times on this board and elsewhere. His post consisted almost entirely of non-Catholic cliches.
i believe that just about everything posted in this sub forum (gt) has been discussed a thousand plus times. there is always room for patience and grace, wouldnt you agree?
 
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