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Prayers to Mary in concerning Matthew

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GregoryTurner

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how can Jesus have half-brothers unless Mary or Joesph married someone else?
They were half brothers because Jesus' father was God, and the other brothers were from Joseph. It's like my sisters. We have the same father but different mothers so we are half...
Ok. now for the attacks
g
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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My perspective...



Points to ponder......

Mary 'of' Alpheuas, Mary 'of' Magdela [single], Mary 'of' James, Mary 'of' Cleophas,

Mary the Mother 'of' Jesus.

What is this? Why do we NOT see Mary 'of' Joseph??

Because in those days, it was customary to include 'of' when a marriage was fully consumated.
But when a woman was left single...sometimes they were named 'of' the town they resided or rather pardon, the town they came from.



I"ve alway conceeded that it cannot be PROVEN that the 4 named brothers and unknown number of unnamed sisters of Jesus may not be via Mary. I DO think that's the most obvious intepretation of the text, but it can't be proven.

However, such provides no substantiation whatsoever for the DOGMA of the Catholic denomination of the PERPETUAL Virginity of Mary.


Even if you are correct and you can support that the Bible does not specificly mention any siblings of Jesus, than what you have revealed is that the Bible does not specificly mention any siblings of Jesus. But "Jesus had no siblings" is not the dogma under review.


I'm 18 and a virgin, but even I know that not every single act of sharing sexual intimacies results in a child named in the Bible. Or even a child at all. IMHO, you'd have to FIRST prove without any possibility of doubt (this is DOGMA!) that every single act of such sharing results in a child named in the Bible before this agrument you keep making provides any substantiation for the DOGMA of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. You have not.




IMHO (and in the opinion of many Catholics I know), there is NOTHING in God's Holy Scriptures that even remotely, wildly hints at this DOGMA. Nothing. It has ZERO substantiation from God's Holy Word. Zero. I think that's obvious and hard to refute, and frankly, the longer these threads go, the more obvious that is.



I realize that the Catholic denomination has "a second testimony" (to use the Mormon terminology) that the Catholic denomination has chosen and which the Catholic denomination considers to be at least equal (and functionally superior) to God's holy inerrant written Word. And THAT is the "source" for this DOGMA. As is the 'second testimony' that the LDS has chosen for it's unique dogmas. In my roughly 5 year jouney with Catholicism, I found many Catholics admitted that. It sure saves a lot of time and gives more credence, IMHO. But I must say, I've always found Mormons to be more "up-front" about this than Catholics.



Thank you for the civil and helpful discussion.
I know people feel passionate about this topic, as do I (because of my profound esteem for Our Lady). The discussion is always difficult because of that. But I appreciate the thoughts expressed and that mine are respectfully considered. I ask and expect NO ONE to deny a dogma of their denomination - that would make them a heretic in their denomination.



Pax!


- Josiah
 
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Splayd

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I appreciate that this is important to Catholics and as such I can understand your frustration that this is raised ad nauseum, but I don't understand how mocking and bullying the posters you disagree with is going to help any of us understand your perspective any better.

Of course CJ and BigNorsk are going to present their own perspectives, but they've attempted to do so in a respectful and reasonably balanced manner, rightly acknowledging both perspectives while recognising that neither can be proven from scripture.

Thanks to Warrior Angel for respectfully bringing something relevant to the table for our consideration. I wonder if some others might attempt to address the issue instead of each other. I, for one would welcome some justification for the fact that this is dogma.

Peace
 
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ScottBot

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I appreciate that this is important to Catholics and as such I can understand your frustration that this is raised ad nauseum, but I don't understand how mocking and bullying the posters you disagree with is going to help any of us understand your perspective any better.

Of course CJ and BigNorsk are going to present their own perspectives, but they've attempted to do so in a respectful and reasonably balanced manner, rightly acknowledging both perspectives while recognising that neither can be proven from scripture.

Thanks to Warrior Angel for respectfully bringing something relevant to the table for our consideration. I wonder if some others might attempt to address the issue instead of each other. I, for one would welcome some justification for the fact that this is dogma.

Peace
I think WarriorAngel gave a great discertation on why this evolved to dogma. Catholics have 2,000 years of history and introspection into the matter, whereas most Protestant theologians are woefully ignorant of the historical and cultural context which forms the basis of this doctrine. Additionally, Catholics are not constrained by the "norming" process of sola scriptura. Indeed, the norming of the text of Scripture must be done within the context of culture, history, and the constant Apostolic teaching handed down from the begining of the church, and through the teaching authority of the Church bestowed upon it by Christ and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

She got to the very crux of this issue. If you considered yourself a righteous, God-fearing, devout Jewish man, understanding the inccredible lengths of respect given to holy objects such as the Ark of the Covenant and the Holy of Holies, would you ever consider treading (so to speak) where God had claimed as His own? If only the consecrated High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies one day a year, could you enter the place where God Himself entered into the world? Please don't treat Mary as a common women, she is far from it. She is not some average Jane who said yes to God. She is the New Eve, as Jesus is the new Adam, who correct the sins of the original Adam and Eve.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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. Indeed, the norming of the text of Scripture


The interpretation of WHAT text?

There is no Scripture about the supremely private sharing of sexual intimacies between Mary and Joseph within the sacred bonds of Holy Matrimony after Jesus was born. Friend, there's nothing to interpret. Nothing to norm. This has NOTHING to do with Scripture. If ANYTHING is abundantly and powerfully obvious in this discussion, it is that. And the longer Catholics keep this going, the more the point is made.


This is all about this "second testimony" as Mormons call it.



She got to the very crux of this issue. If you considered yourself a righteous, God-fearing, devout Jewish man, understanding the inccredible lengths of respect given to holy objects such as the Ark of the Covenant and the Holy of Holies, would you ever consider treading (so to speak) where God had claimed as His own? If only the consecrated High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies one day a year, could you enter the place where God Himself entered into the world? Please don't treat Mary as a common women, she is far from it. She is not some average Jane who said yes to God. She is the New Eve, as Jesus is the new Adam, who correct the sins of the original Adam and Eve.


I already gave my male perspective to this very wierd, very odd series of questions. But I think the difference in our epistemologies really comes out here. To ME, self asking questions and then self implying an answer to our own questions does not make for the substantiation of a DOGMA. Friend, ANYONE can play that game - it proves NOTHING.

And okay, you could ask 10 men these questions and get 10 answers. It's entirely, completely, absolutely moot to the discussion unless you are asking Joseph.


The FACT is, God's holy inerrant written Word is respectfully silent on this matter of surpreme privacy. Protestants follow that. Catholics (for reasons no one has ever explained to me) are OBSESSED to the point of DOGMA about how often Mary and Joseph did or didn't "do it" after Jesus was born within the sacred bonds of the Sacrament of Marriage. They admit it's completely moot to anything, but they INSIST the issure of how often they "did it" is sooooooooooooooooooooo important as to have DOGMA status.



Odd to me.



My $0.01


Pax!


- Josiah



.
 
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ScottBot

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The interpretation of WHAT text?

There is no Scripture about the supremely private sharing of sexual intimacies between Mary and Joseph within the sacred bonds of Holy Matrimony after Jesus was born. Friend, there's nothing to interpret. Nothing to norm. This has NOTHING to do with Scripture. If ANYTHING is abundantly and powerfully obvious in this discussion, it is that. And the longer Catholics keep this going, the more the point is made.


This is all about this "second testimony" as Mormons call it.






I already gave my male perspective to this very wierd, very odd series of questions. But I think the difference in our epistemologies really comes out here. To ME, self asking questions and then self implying an answer to our own questions does not make for the substantiation of a DOGMA. Friend, ANYONE can play that game - it proves NOTHING.

And okay, you could ask 10 men these questions and get 10 answers. It's entirely, completely, absolutely moot to the discussion unless you are asking Joseph.


The FACT is, God's holy inerrant written Word is respectfully silent on this matter of surpreme privacy. Protestants follow that. Catholics (for reasons no one has ever explained to me) are OBSESSED to the point of DOGMA about how often Mary and Joseph did or didn't "do it" after Jesus was born within the sacred bonds of the Sacrament of Marriage. They admit it's completely moot to anything, but they INSIST the issure of how often they "did it" is sooooooooooooooooooooo important as to have DOGMA status.



Odd to me.



My $0.01


Pax!


- Josiah



.
That is because the Catholic Church has insights into this matter that Protestants conveniently ignore for the sake of presupposed positions of their own doctrine.
 
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Splayd

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Thanks for that Scott (#44 - I forgot to quote). I suppose it illustrates how it could develop into dogma. I just can't see why it had to.

Incidentally, please know I have a great respect for Mary. Frankly, it saddens me greatly that some Protestants seem to try to overcompensate for what they see as errors from Catholics. I'm certainly among those who count her blessed. I marvel at what God did trhough Mary for all mankind and I'm overwhelmed by the very thought of how that must have been for her.

Luk 1:48 For He looked on the humiliation of His slave woman. For, behold, from now on all generations shall count me blessed.
 
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ScottBot

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Thanks for that Scott (#44 - I forgot to quote). I suppose it illustrates how it could develop into dogma. I just can't see why it had to.

Incidentally, please know I have a great respect for Mary. Frankly, it saddens me greatly that some Protestants seem to try to overcompensate for what they see as errors from Catholics. I'm certainly among those who count her blessed. I marvel at what God did trhough Mary for all mankind and I'm overwhelmed by the very thought of how that must have been for her.

Luk 1:48 For He looked on the humiliation of His slave woman. For, behold, from now on all generations shall count me blessed.
The necessity for it to develop into dogma started with Nestorius. Heresy always requires a further deepening and clarification of doctrine.
 
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Axion

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I realize that the Catholic denomination has "a second testimony" (to use the Mormon terminology) that the Catholic denomination has chosen and which the Catholic denomination considers to be at least equal (and functionally superior) to God's holy inerrant written Word. And THAT is the "source" for this DOGMA. As is the 'second testimony' that the LDS has chosen for it's unique dogmas. In my roughly 5 year jouney with Catholicism, I found many Catholics admitted that. It sure saves a lot of time and gives more credence, IMHO. But I must say, I've always found Mormons to be more "up-front" about this than Catholics.

You are the one who accuses Catholics and other Apostolic Christians of being "obsessive" about this teaching. yet you seem to keep on and on about this more obsessively than anyone. You have been filling up threads about this for years on this site.

The simple fact is that

1. Mary's virginity is a traditional teaching of ALL the ancient churches - of which the LDS is not one. It is not even Christian

2. The idea that all teaching must be explicit in the reduced protestant Bible is a new one, invented a few hundred years ago.

3. There is nothing in scripture to tell us that Mary had illegitimate Children with Joseph - or that Jesus is ilegitimate
 
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BigNorsk

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Jesus is definitely not illegitimate according to scripture, that is one of the points of the first chapter of Matthew. If Jesus was illegitimate, it wouldn't make much sense to give the lineage of Joseph would it? Because that wouldn't be the lineage of Jesus, but Joseph married Mary and so Jesus, born during the time of that marriage was Joseph's Son. Not physically, but legally. So it would be proper to call Joseph Jesus' Father, though we would understand it not to be in a physical way, but legally, socially, he was.

Now if Joseph didn't marry Mary, that all becomes very problematic. Without an adoption ceremony, Jesus would not be Joseph's son and indeed would be illegitamate.

The virginity of Mary has been embraced since the start of the Church and indeed is embraced to this day throughout. What was not embraced early and is not embraced by many to this day is the eternal virginity of Mary.

Marv
 
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ScottBot

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Jesus is definitely not illegitimate according to scripture, that is one of the points of the first chapter of Matthew. If Jesus was illegitimate, it wouldn't make much sense to give the lineage of Joseph would it? Because that wouldn't be the lineage of Jesus, but Joseph married Mary and so Jesus, born during the time of that marriage was Joseph's Son. Not physically, but legally. So it would be proper to call Joseph Jesus' Father, though we would understand it not to be in a physical way, but legally, socially, he was.

Now if Joseph didn't marry Mary, that all becomes very problematic. Without an adoption ceremony, Jesus would not be Joseph's son and indeed would be illegitamate.

The virginity of Mary has been embraced since the start of the Church and indeed is embraced to this day throughout. What was not embraced early and is not embraced by many to this day is the eternal virginity of Mary.

Marv
The perpetual virginity of Mary is a very common feature of many of the ECFs. Not sure where you're getting your info.
 
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joyfulthanks

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A suggestion for my Catholic friends (and I mean this as a kind suggestion, not at all as a rebuke):

Just because a guy comes in with the same argument you've heard a thousand times doesn't mean this is the thousandth time he's heard it or even thought about it. It may be a completely new thought for him, in which case, treating him with patience and some degree of respect from the start might help win him over to your way of thinking.

I keep having this mental picture of a guy coming into a bar and saying "The sky is falling!" The first time someone comes in a says this, the patrons carefully and patiently explain to him why he's wrong.

Then another guy comes in saying the same thing. Again, there are patient explanations all around.

Next, a third guy comes in saying the same thing. This is getting ridiculous! The crowd begins to get restless and angry.

But pity the poor fourth guy who comes in. Having no idea what has come before, he innocently comes in and cries: "The sky is falling!" At him, they immediately throw rotten tomatoes - and he has no clue why!

I know, not every question is innocent, and it's hard to hear the same ones over and over again. But if you guys want to be apologists (and especially if you want to hang around GT), you're probably going to be hearing these same arguments and objections for the rest of your lives - you might as well get used to it.

And, of course, this goes for all of us, and not just Catholics.

Uh oh, I think I see another guy coming in...;)
 
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leothelioness

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This post is VERY bogus. Mary DID NOT have ANY other children.
Whether or not she had any children (which I'm inclined to think she did) she still had sexual relations.

It is explicitly stated in the Bible that Mary and Joseph were husband and wife at the time of her pregnancy, but he did not have a union with her (in other words a sexual union) until after Christ was born.

I would find it a bit difficult to believe (especially in the days when birth control did not exist) that she could have had sexual relations and not had children as a result.

You hear this nonsense from anti-Catholics or sites that are so.
I wouldn't be so hasty to call it nonsense.

And since when did believing Mary had children become "anti-Catholic"?

Imagine Mary naming one of her kids JUDAS..
Well, at the time she had named her child Judas the betrayal of Christ had not yet happened so what would it matter?

Besides, just because one guy named Judas is bad doesn't make all the other guys named Judas bad.

When people like this come on and defame Our Blessed Mother.
I fail to see how she could possibly be considered your mother.

and read all about her apparitons over the centuries.
Which most likely are fictional stories.

Her task was to give birth to the Son of God and nothing more.
Exactly, which makes her no one special. Not any more special than any other woman.

Your quote above also contradicts the supposed reason for all those apparitions. Mary supposedly appeared to people to give messages. If her only task was to give birth to the Son why would she be popping up out of nowhere to give people messages?
 
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joyfulthanks

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I would just like to add to my post above that obviously, if it were the same guy coming in every day saying the same thing, the situation might be different. However, even in that case, I think we are still called to show patience and kindness, and I know we all are called to forgive - even up to 70 times 7 times in a day. Sometimes, it takes awhile for people to get things - especially me! I, for one, have the unfortunate combination of being both a slow learner and having a hard head (or maybe I'm a slow learner because I have a hard head!) :doh:

-Grace
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Man, I've gotten a lot of mileage out of this post...

On the 'Her Pertetual Virginity is About Sex' Stuff

Any hypothetical relations between Joseph and Mary would not have defiled Mary because sex within marriage is no defiling act. It is not so much about relations between Joseph and Mary as between a non-Aaronid (non-priest) and a dwelling place of God (her holy womb). The defilement here referred would not be defilement of Mary as a person, but rather of a beit kodesh (holy house- her womb).

And please don't say that 'well, he wasn't there anymore.' Even though the shekhinah glory departed from the Jerusalem temple in AD 30, 66, or 70 (take your pick), Orthodox Jews (and I) will not go on the temple mount for fear to stepping where the holy of holies once was.

However, this does not prove anything. It simply lays down a path for Joseph and Mary to follow- not that they necessarily followed it. In order to take this as proof of her perpetual virginity, you have to first assume her sinlessness. They may not even have thought in those categories.

On Scriptural Affirmation or Repudiation of Perpetual Virginity

There is nothing in Scripture to deny her perpetual virginity, and there is nothing in Scripture to affirm it. It is adiaphora (an area of theological freedom, or at least for sola Scriptura Protestants) in the strictest sense.

The two verses most often used to argue against her perpetual virginity are Mark 6:3 (and its parallels in Matthew and Luke) and Matthew 1:25.

Mark 6:3, as others have pointed out, is not conclusory. The passage refers to brothers and sisters of Jesus, but the word here is adelphos. The term is ambiguous and can refer to almost any sort of relative. In the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament (the LXX), Lot, Abraham's nephews, is called his adelphos. While, from the passage, it is possible that these four brothers and at least two sisters are Mary's children, it is far from certain. It was simply translated 'brothers' and 'sisters' in the King James (and all subsequent English translations) and, I believe, the German Luther Bible, because English (and German?) doesn't have a single general term meaning 'male relatives' or 'female relatives.'

Matthew 1:25, as one other has pointed out, it also not conclusory. The passage states that Mary and Joseph did not have relations with each other 'up until that time,' i.e., the time of Christ's birth. In English it is perfectly natural to assume that 'until' implies a reversal of circumstances after 'that time.' Not so in Greek. The Greek term heos (until) does not bear this implication; for instance, in the Greek LXX Old Testament, 2 Samuel 6:23 states that Michal, daughter of Saul, had no child until (heos) the day of her death. Are we to assume that the ancient translators of the LXX thought that once she was dead, Michal finally got around to having children? Not at all.

There is simply no New Testament passage that expressly says, or even implies, that Mary did not remain a virgin after the birth up to her death.

On the other hand, the central New Testament passage used by defenders of her perpetual virginity is likewise not conclusory.

When Christ on the cross says to Mary and the beloved disciple, I think it really does imply that Mary did not have other children. Indeed, one of the four brethren mentioned in Mark 6:3, James, was certainly alive and well at this point and went on to become the leader of the Jerusalem church; another brother, Jude, is possibly to be identified with the apostle Jude/Thaddeus/Lebbeus. Why charge the beloved disciple (John?) with responsibility rather than one of these two men?

However, the absence of children does not imply perpetual virginity. All it really does is tip the scales toward the 'cousins' view of Mark 6:3, away from the 'siblings' view.

The other passage used to defend perpetual virginity is Mary's exclamation 'How can this be; I have not known a man,' in Luke 1:34. I wonder, with Catholics, why she would be so surprised if she wasn't expecting to remain a virgin; verse 27 clearly states that she was already engaged to Joseph. If she was expecting to go on to have marital relations with Joseph, we might expect an exclamation more along the lines of, 'Wow, Joseph and I are going to bear the Mashiach?' From this, then, it has been suggested that Mary was a consecrated virgin and her marriage to Joseph a marriage of protection, as was often found in the ancient world.

But, it possible that the angel's appearance implied that the conception would take place prior to the consummation of her marriage, and (as much of the Scriptures are summary) may have been so said in the original appearance. Her exclamation may simply have been a reaction to the idea of a virgin birth in general. I simply can't see how we can honestly exegete a consecrated virginity and marriage of protection from this verse.

Moreover, Raymond Brown, a renowed Catholic scholar and author of Birth of the Messiah, points out that her question is more a literary device used to move along the angel's affirmation of who Christ was from the beginning (over-against adoptionism), rather than a historical record. The genre, he asserts, is polemic in the form of history, not history alone.

On a purely Scriptural basis, then, I see the perpetual virginity of Mary as neither denied nor affirmed. It is adiaphora in the truest sense.

That said, the tradition of her perpetual virginity is extremely early; earlier than any 'one God in three persons' elucidation of the Trinity, for instance (Tertullian, late second century). It first appears in its fullness in the Protoevangelion of James, which came on the scene 120-150. Unlike the other work of second century pulp fiction (The Infancy Gospel of Thomas, not to be confused with the gnostic 'gospel' of Thomas), I think the Protoevangelion deserves our attention.

The Protoevangelion of James actually stands in concord with a great deal of the 'perpetual' interpretations of the text; Mary was a consecrated virgin, Joseph was an elderly man who married her for protection, etc.

Where the text leaves ambiguity, the earliest writing that actually addresses the matter addresses it so as to affirm Mary's perpetual virginity. Even if you reject church tradition (and I know most of you do), the document provides evidence on purely historical grounds. And as for me, as a person who accepts tradition where it does not contradict Scripture (yes, we Protestants who accept tradition do exist), I really can't ignore this.

What's more, by taking the earliest church document to tip the scales of ambiguous texts, we allow Mary and Joseph to follow the theological guidelines laid out at the beginning of the post (prohibition from entering a vessel of God by a non-Aaronid).

And so I stand with Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and all the historic Protestant reformers in affirming the perpetual virginity of Mary (yet with Josiah, as a matter of pious opinion, not dogma).
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Her task was to give birth to the Son of God and nothing more.
Exactly, which makes her no one special. Not any more special than any other woman.

Really? Because I thought 'All nations shall call me blessed' was in the Bible for a reason. Have any of you Protestants actually read the Magnificat?

She's not just an incubator, for crying out loud. She's the mother of the King (the Mother of God, Theotokos), and by Israelite standards that makes her the Queen- the Queen of all Heaven and Earth.

If you said that about my mother, I'd be mad. So go ahead and say it to Him if you'd like, but as for me:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb Jesus Christ.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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However, this does not prove anything.

Doesn't even suggest it.



There is nothing in Scripture to deny her perpetual virginity, and there is nothing in Scripture to affirm it. It is adiaphora (an area of theological freedom, or at least for sola Scriptura Protestants) in the strictest sense.


:thumbsup: :amen:




the central New Testament passage used by defenders of her perpetual virginity is likewise not conclusory.

When Christ on the cross says to Mary and the beloved disciple, I think it really does imply that Mary did not have other children. Indeed, one of the four brethren mentioned in Mark 6:3, James, was certainly alive and well at this point and went on to become the leader of the Jerusalem church; another brother, Jude, is possibly to be identified with the apostle Jude/Thaddeus/Lebbeus. Why charge the beloved disciple (John?) with responsibility rather than one of these two men?


:thumbsup:



The other passage used to defend perpetual virginity is Mary's exclamation 'How can this be; I have not known a man,' in Luke 1:34. I wonder, with Catholics, why she would be so surprised if she wasn't expecting to remain a virgin; verse 27 clearly states that she was already engaged to Joseph. If she was expecting to go on to have marital relations with Joseph, we might expect an exclamation more along the lines of, 'Wow, Joseph and I are going to bear the Mashiach?' From this, then, it has been suggested that Mary was a consecrated virgin and her marriage to Joseph a marriage of protection, as was often found in the ancient world.

But, it possible that the angel's appearance implied that the conception would take place prior to the consummation of her marriage, and (as much of the Scriptures are summary) may have been so said in the original appearance. Her exclamation may simply have been a reaction to the idea of a virgin birth in general. I simply can't see how we can honestly exegete a consecrated virginity and marriage of protection from this verse.


:thumbsup:


On a purely Scriptural basis, then, I see the perpetual virginity of Mary as neither denied nor affirmed. It is adiaphora in the truest sense.


:thumbsup:


I strongly suspect you MUST be Lutheran...


Even if you reject church tradition (and I know most of you do), the document provides evidence on purely historical grounds. And as for me, as a person who accepts tradition where it does not contradict Scripture (yes, we Protestants who accept tradition do exist), I really can't ignore this.


I accept it as an ancient, broadly accepted belief - with no biblical support or condemnation. Thus, a valid pious opinion but not dogma.


And so I stand with Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and all the historic Protestant reformers in affirming the perpetual virginity of Mary (yet with Josiah, as a matter of pious opinion, not dogma).


Oh, I'm glad I carefully read to the bottom of the article :)


Lutherans allow pious opinion - especially when firmly rooted in tradition. Here's the thing. You and I are both conservative Lutherans (both LCMS yet). You accept this. I don't. Neither one of us is shouting "heretic!" or pronouncing the anathamas of dogma at each other. We worship together, kneel to receive the Blessing of His Body and Blood together. :)



Pax!


- Josiah



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ModernDaySpyridon

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Really? Because I thought 'All nations shall call me blessed' was in the Bible for a reason. Have any of you Protestants actually read the Magnificat?

She's not just an incubator, for crying out loud. She's the mother of the King (the Mother of God, Theotokos), and by Israelite standards that makes her the Queen- the Queen of all Heaven and Earth.

If you said that about my mother, I'd be mad. So go ahead and say it to Him if you'd like, but as for me:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb Jesus Christ.

Amen !

Higher in honor than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, you who without corruption gave birth to God the Logos, our truly Theotokos (God-Bearer), you do we magnify! :crosseo:
 
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