Arminians

[orthedoxy]

God's elect were saved in the purpose of God before the foundation of the world. Eph. 1:4, 2Tim. 1:9, Heb. 4:3, 1Pet.1:20 Christ is called the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8
For God to purpose it was the same as it already happening. The elect were actually saved in time when Christ died. He appeared once to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself and did exactly that. Heb.9:26 The elect are made aware of that accomplished salvation by the Spirit making the Word preached reach into the heart and regenerating the elect sinner.John 14:8-11 Having been made alive in Christ we willingly run to Him in faith.Psa. 110:3 God has always dealt with elect sinner in Christ. Even those in OT times. Yes theywere regenerated. They would have been just like the rest of the world, religious but blind, if they had not been given life in Him. Those OT believers didn't have the full picture but they did understand that there was one coming who would redeem His people. Job says that he knows that his redeemer lives and will stand on the earth in the latter days. Job 19:25-27

How can you say you were saved before the foundation of the world when people were enemies of God before they believed?Also the bible says believe so you would be saved.

 

[UMP]

How can you say you were saved before the foundation of the world when people were enemies of God before they believed?

If the only true and living God, who upholds all things by the word of His power, purposes to save a people before the foundation of the world, in "His" mind, they are saved. God does what He purposes to do. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. Nothing can thwart His plans.
Therefore, the answer to your question is that in the "mind of God" we were saved before the foundation of the world. However, in practice, or in human terms, we are saved in time.
If God declares or purposes that such and such a person will live another 10 years, this does not negate the fact that this person must continue to eat food and drink water in the "here and now" in order to stay alive. However, If God purposes to keep a person alive for 10 more years, in God's mind, in all eternity for that matter, it IS so.
God has no beginning and no end.

 

[mlqurgw]

How can you say you were saved before the foundation of the world when people were enemies of God before they believed?Also the bible says believe so you would be saved.

Great and thoughtful questions. I feel privilaged to have the opportunity to answer them.
In the Scriptures the word saved is used in basically 3 different tenses: Having been saved, past tense; are being saved, present tense; and will be saved, future tense. I don't have the time right now to look up the references that show each as I am working on something else but will do so if you need for me to. Yes we are said to be by nature the enemies of God before faith but the key is by nature. Until we are born again, regenerated and made new creatures in Chist, we act and think exactly according to our nature, as God's enemies. But that doesn't mean that God isn't reconciled to us. Paul implored men to be reconciled to God on the basis of redemtion accomplished. He never implored men to let God be reconciled. He already is because Christ has reconciled us to Him. The Scriptures everywhere teach that God is merciful and forgives because of the work of Christ not because we believe. We believe because the Spirit does a work in us and for us that we will not and cannot do for ourselves. To put it as simply as I know how, when we preach the Gospel and implore men to be saved we are seeking for men to experience in ther heart that which God has already accomplished for them. Salvation in that sense is received by the sinner in his experience but has already been given him in Christ before the foundation of the world. Does that make sense? Forgive my muddy explanation.

 

[orthedoxy]

I understand your explanation but just doesn't make sense if before God brings us to faith we are not saved, we are still in our sins. even if it's in Gods mind that we will be saved we are still not saved.Even if Christ died for us long time ago we are not forgiven untill we repent(when God make us repent).
Also if salvation is in future tense then how can you be sure you are one of the elect now?

 

[GodsElect]

If you really want to know about the doctrines of Grace and decide what you belive and don't belive in in check out www.monorgism.com
Here is a link to online Mp3 sermons on the doctrines of grace....
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/doctrinesofgrace.html

 

[mlqurgw]

I understand your explanation but just doesn't make sense if before God brings us to faith we are not saved, we are still in our sins. even if it's in Gods mind that we will be saved we are still not saved.Even if Christ died for us long time ago we are not forgiven untill we repent(when God make us repent).
Also if salvation is in future tense then how can you be sure you are one of the elect now?

It is a matter of perspective. Before God brought me to faith I was a profligate sinner running to every lust and evil desire that I could. As far as I was concerned I wasn't saved. But Christ had died for me 2000 years ago and had already put away my sin and reconciled God to me even though I knew nothing about it and didn't even want it. When the time of love that God had ordained for me to be brought to faith the Spirit came and gave me a new heart and caused me to actually hear the Gospel for the first time. I only then saw my need of Christ and saw in Him all my hope. I willingly believed on Him and was saved in my experience. God didn't change His mind concerning me when I believed He was already reconciled to me but now by faith I was reconciled to Him. I no longer hated Him but loved Him and desired to honor Him. My salvation was accomplished when Christ hung on that cross being made a curse for me and being made my sin. His blood wasn't applied to me when I believed but when God saw it in my place. God had to do something for Himself, satisfy His unbending justice against my sin, before He could in holiness and righteousness do something for me. I was actually saved when Christ died but in my experience I was saved when I believed. I am being saved evey day as I live by faith in Christ and need Him. I will be saved in the future when all that God had purposed in time shall come to completionand I will be with Him forever in glory. I know that I am one of the elect because I believe. That is the evidence of salvation. Yet even though I sometimes don't act as though I am saved nor even feel as though I am saved it doesn't change the fact that God says I am. Though I am an unfaithful and unprofitable servant He is faithful and cannot lie. He has said I am saved because I trust Christ and He will not go back on His wrd.

 

[orthedoxy]

It is a matter of perspective. Before God brought me to faith I was a profligate sinner running to every lust and evil desire that I could. As far as I was concerned I wasn't saved. But Christ had died for me 2000 years ago and had already put away my sin and reconciled God to me even though I knew nothing about it and didn't even want it. When the time of love that God had ordained for me to be brought to faith the Spirit came and gave me a new heart and caused me to actually hear the Gospel for the first time. I only then saw my need of Christ and saw in Him all my hope. I willingly believed on Him and was saved in my experience. God didn't change His mind concerning me when I believed He was already reconciled to me but now by faith I was reconciled to Him. I no longer hated Him but loved Him and desired to honor Him. My salvation was accomplished when Christ hung on that cross being made a curse for me and being made my sin. His blood wasn't applied to me when I believed but when God saw it in my place. God had to do something for Himself, satisfy His unbending justice against my sin, before He could in holiness and righteousness do something for me. I was actually saved when Christ died but in my experience I was saved when I believed. I am being saved evey day as I live by faith in Christ and need Him. I will be saved in the future when all that God had purposed in time shall come to completionand I will be with Him forever in glory. I know that I am one of the elect because I believe. That is the evidence of salvation. Yet even though I sometimes don't act as though I am saved nor even feel as though I am saved it doesn't change the fact that God says I am. Though I am an unfaithful and unprofitable servant He is faithful and cannot lie. He has said I am saved because I trust Christ and He will not go back on His wrd.

In many places the bible teaches one need to believe to be saved assuming the person was not saved before that for example. Rom 10:9 if you confess with your mouth you will be saved, or Act 2:38 repent and you will recieve regeneration. Therfore we can't say we were saved before believing unless God is saving considering foreknowledge don't you think?
Also are you free to comit adultary? would you still have assurance of salvation? when do you loose assurance? How much do you have to sin before you loose assurance?

 

[S Walch]

I don't think saying that to become saved you actually have to trust and rely upon Jesus is a work.

It all depends on what you view when He says "it is not by works you are saved." The question is, what does Paul actually mean by works?

I also don't think it's very fair to ask Calvinists what Arminists think. It would be like asking a Hindu what a Reformed Baptist believes.

I would also contend whoever said that most American Christians are Arminists - most are in fact Calvinists in out look. Europe has a higher Arminist population.

 

[heymikey80]

I understand your explanation but just doesn't make sense if before God brings us to faith we are not saved, we are still in our sins. even if it's in Gods mind that we will be saved we are still not saved.Even if Christ died for us long time ago we are not forgiven untill we repent(when God make us repent).

Given that you're on this board I'm assuming you're actually struggling over the seeming paradox, and not just musing for the sake of argument?

Let's start with "salvation". The original language of the New Testament uses a fairly common word for this -- it means healing, or in some narrow cases rescue or absolving or applying salve. It doesn't take on the meaning of ultimate eternal life in God's grace until it's pressed into that meaning in history. So the word was used not simply for ultimate salvation, but also for those who had accepted Christ (2 Tim 1:9, Titus 3:5). But it doesn't stop there: 2 Tim 1:9 also points to this past salvation being "given to us before the foundation of the world."

But ... how did the word "saved" get this flavor of ultimacy, if the word never had it before (which it didn't)? If God's works -- including some sense of salvation -- were finished from the foundation of the world, then in some sense our salvation has already been accomplished. God has already been reconciled to us. Were it otherwise, we'd have a hard time becoming reconciled to Him. Certainly it took His action in history to accomplish reconciliation. But who would He choose to apply His saving work?

Where does any of this start? Can we be reconciled enough to deserve God's acting on our behalf, before we're reconciled by Christ's action on the Cross? It's a vicious circle. No, we can't be reconciled enough. We're saved by God's grace, given to us constantly since the foundation of the world. Otherwise He would have justly never let us be born in the first place. We're not good people.

So the very sense of ultimacy that "saved" now means to people -- that of eternal life in communion with God -- is based on the fact that when God starts something, He promises to finish it (Heb 12:2).

Now that said, that's very, very embedded in the theology. Normally we Reformed people talk about "saved" in the common, modern use of the term. And that meaning is "eternal life after death". In that sense, God does says He gives us eternal life when He makes us alive in Christ Jesus by the Spirit of God. And that happens in time and history.

I recognize the seeming paradox, orthedoxy. I have had it, too. With some narrowing of the word "save", you're quite right. But if the word is expanded to show what's happening to the elect, well the very process of electing people -- God choosing them -- lives under the category of "salvation".

Also if salvation is in future tense then how can you be sure you are one of the elect now?

If God promises that those He began to save will be saved in the future, isn't that unfailing certainty?

I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish Jn 10:28
​

 

[orthedoxy]

Given that you're on this board I'm assuming you're actually struggling over the seeming paradox, and not just musing for the sake of argument?

Let's start with "salvation". The original language of the New Testament uses a fairly common word for this -- it means healing, or in some narrow cases rescue or absolving or applying salve. It doesn't take on the meaning of ultimate eternal life in God's grace until it's pressed into that meaning in history. So the word was used not simply for ultimate salvation, but also for those who had accepted Christ (2 Tim 1:9, Titus 3:5). But it doesn't stop there: 2 Tim 1:9 also points to this past salvation being "given to us before the foundation of the world."

But ... how did the word "saved" get this flavor of ultimacy, if the word never had it before (which it didn't)? If God's works -- including some sense of salvation -- were finished from the foundation of the world, then in some sense our salvation has already been accomplished. God has already been reconciled to us. Were it otherwise, we'd have a hard time becoming reconciled to Him. Certainly it took His action in history to accomplish reconciliation. But who would He choose to apply His saving work?

Where does any of this start? Can we be reconciled enough to deserve God's acting on our behalf, before we're reconciled by Christ's action on the Cross? It's a vicious circle. No, we can't be reconciled enough. We're saved by God's grace, given to us constantly since the foundation of the world. Otherwise He would have justly never let us be born in the first place. We're not good people.

So the very sense of ultimacy that "saved" now means to people -- that of eternal life in communion with God -- is based on the fact that when God starts something, He promises to finish it (Heb 12:2).

Now that said, that's very, very embedded in the theology. Normally we Reformed people talk about "saved" in the common, modern use of the term. And that meaning is "eternal life after death". In that sense, God does says He gives us eternal life when He makes us alive in Christ Jesus by the Spirit of God. And that happens in time and history.

I recognize the seeming paradox, orthedoxy. I have had it, too. With some narrowing of the word "save", you're quite right. But if the word is expanded to show what's happening to the elect, well the very process of electing people -- God choosing them -- lives under the category of "salvation".

If God promises that those He began to save will be saved in the future, isn't that unfailing certainty?

I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish Jn 10:28
​

Are you saying not everyone that recieves Christ is ultimatly saved?
What does God have to make us do to be ultimatly saved?

"Also are you free to comit adultary? would you still have assurance of salvation? when do you loose assurance? How much do you have to sin before you loose assurance?"

 

[heymikey80]

Are you saying not everyone that recieves Christ is ultimatly saved?

I'm not sure where this came from, but I can start right here: with one exception, namely Christ Jesus, no one I know has been ultimately saved. What's "ultimate"? "Ultimate" is "last". As none but Christ is resurrected, none has been ultimately saved.

Everyone who receives Christ's sacrifice for their sins will be ultimately saved.

What does God have to make us do to be ultimatly saved?

Hm. God does the saving, and God brings us to birth by the Spirit. We do the relying.

"Also are you free to comit adultary?

Hm. "free"? In what sense? Are you free to commit adultery?
David -- would you say he was free to commit adultery and yet still be ultimately saved? He even committed murder. Was he free, though? Adultery wasn't free. He was cursed and his family torn apart by violence. Was that free?

But will he be saved, ultimately?

would you still have assurance of salvation? when do you loose assurance?

By not following what Christ Jesus commands, your assurance is intermitted. But it is not lost. Remember again what's "assurance"? It is not the feeling of assurance. It's what is given to show God is in earnest. What shows that? Well, God's promise of salvation in Christ Jesus shows He's in earnest about saving us. He promised. He doesn't lie.

How do we lose God's promise? We don't. But it becomes hard to see when we lose sight of Christ.

How much do you have to sin before you loose assurance?"

Many things can get in the way of our assurance, and cause us to feel or seem like we're someone headed for destruction. It can be whatever keeps us from progress in our Christian walk.

 

[mlqurgw]

In many places the bible teaches one need to believe to be saved assuming the person was not saved before that for example. Rom 10:9 if you confess with your mouth you will be saved, or Act 2:38 repent and you will recieve regeneration. Therfore we can't say we were saved before believing unless God is saving considering foreknowledge don't you think?
Also are you free to comit adultary? would you still have assurance of salvation? when do you loose assurance? How much do you have to sin before you loose assurance?

With all due respect and no intention of offense there is far too much what I have done or will do and too little of what He has done in your thinking.
Am I free to commit adultery? Yes but the real question is will I? I am not free from the practice of sin any more than I was before Christ made Himself known to me but I do seek to honor Christ in all I do. I fall and fail miserably but even that was taken care of at the cross. What is the foundation for assurance in your mind? Does our assurance come from us by what we do or from Him who is faithful. Our failures in no way annul His faithfulness.

 

[GodsElect]

orthedoxy,
i know you have many questions about calvinism and there are still things in question about the theology of it. But if you can hear me out on this I will try to put it in a simple of terms as possible. I tried to post this to you a few days ago until my power went out and is still out because of the ice storms we had on thursday. So here goes...

If you were 100 steps from God and God took 99 steps to you, what would you have to do, or how many steps would you have to take in order receive your salvation???

The Arminian answer would be: "I would have to take that last step to receive my salvation!"

The Calvinist answer would be: "none" "I could not, take the last step, being a spiritually depraved sinner, take any steps to warrant any good favor or salvation on my behalf to be saved. God must take that last step to make all of this possible."

The point is, When the Bible says, "All Glory be to God" and Matt:25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

So to ask, are Arminians giving Most Glory to God and some Glory to themselves for taking that last step to receive thier salvation?

While Calvinist are giving ALL Glory to God for their salvation and not any to themselves for being made alive to receive it. And saying, It is because of God that I have been made alive first to receive my salvation. Do you think that God would be more pleased with man giving all Glory to Him for all things? or most glory to Him and some to us for receiving this free gift of Grace and salvation?

 

[James1979]

The test to know whether you're one of God's elect is to look into scriptures and see if it lines up with our daily lives.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

The commandments of God should not be grievous to us because we should have a delight in keeping God's commandment. That involves preaching the gospel, the whole counsel of God (preach salvation and the wrath of God together whenever you present the gospel to an indiviual or a group of people) Also any other commandments you can find in the bible that applies in our day. There's a whole lot, not only a few.

 

[GodsElect]

Here is some answers to the question of salvation and the will of man.....http://www.ligonier.org/media_player.php?tabID=1&id=119

 

[orthedoxy]

Is faith necessary for salvation?
If you have to confess Jesus with your mouth or You have to eat his flesh and drink his blood John 6.
Who is doing the action? How can you say God gets 100% credit when we are doing the responding?

Also do you have to do good works to maintain assurance of salvation? If believers could commit adultary and even deny Jesus (like Peter) do they still have assurance of salvation?

 

[UMP]

How can you say God gets 100% credit when we are doing the responding?

A mystery, indeed.
Truth, nevertheless.

1 Corinthians 15:
[10] But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

 

[GodsElect]

Who is doing the action? How can you say God gets 100% credit when we are doing the responding?

Why do you not Give ALL the Glory to God!!!! I guess you never read or listened to what I had posted in my other posts. What do you not understand about the bible when it says....

Ephesians 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding[c] being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

If you have been called and you are saved, your Good Works are fruits that you WILL bear as fruits of your salvation and can DO NO OTHER!

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I pray that you will understand that it is because of Him who has, enlighted the eyes of our understanding, so that we would belive. i.e. Irresistable Grace.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Is faith necessary for salvation?
If you have to confess Jesus with your mouth or You have to eat his flesh and drink his blood John 6.
Who is doing the action? How can you say God gets 100% credit when we are doing the responding?

Because unless God had first regenerated our spirits, no one would ever want to do those things.

 

[orthedoxy]

Is faith necessary for salvation?
Do you have to do good works to be assured of your salvation?
Arminians believe you have to respond to the grace what is the difference with what you are saying? it's you who is the one that has to confess or eat.