Sign Petition to get Kent Hovind to do written discussion

[AV1611VET]

AV actually tries to redefine the meaning of 'age'.

Either that, or I tried to define it to the best of my ability.

 

[AV1611VET]

"created with a history" does not end up at odds with creationism.

You just believe Adam had a navel...

No, I do not believe Adam and Eve had navels.

 

[Edx]

Of course I think other Creationists think their beliefs are Biblical. I've studied them myself, and know the Biblical justification behind most of them.

Good, then you should be are aware that "BEC" means nothing.

As in any man-made term, it codifies the beliefs supporting it, and simplifies the discussion.

Except you arent simplyfing it, you're trying to disassociate yourself from YECs by using a meaningless term. "Biblical Creationism", how does that going to describe what you believe?

Rather than saying, for instance, "I'm a believer in A, B, and C" all the time; I simply say, "I'm a Republican

Then you should accept you are a YEC. All that makes you a YEC is believing the earth was created 6,000 years ago. Thats it. AIG and ICR may believe the earth actually looks the age they believe it to be, whereas you dont, but thats irrelevant. You believe the earth was created 6,000 years ago, that makes you a YEC.

You also appear to have ignored the rest of my post again!

So lets talk about it, since we are talking about man-made words. All words are man-made. "Age" is defined by the passage of time. Its that simple.

Lets say I make 2 chairs. The first I make out of materials a year old. The next chair I make with antique wood hundreds of years old. Both chairs are still only a day old. The materials used to create the second chair however is hundreds of years old because it has existed for hundreds of years while the chair itself has only existed, as a chair, for only a day. See how this works?

You say the earth is millions of years old, yet was only created 6,000 years ago. But whatever you are talking about here is not the meaning of age. Even if God had made the earth out of old material like the chair example that would still means the earth was created 6,000 years ago just as the chair was created a day ago is a day old even though it was made with material hundreds of years old. Similarly mature whisky cant be made to be 16 years old with chemicals, it can only theoretically be made to taste as if its been allowed to mature that long. But this still isnt what you are claiming, its even more inaccurate. You are claiming that the earth was created with age "embedded", but without the passage of time there can be no age because thats what the word means.

 

[Edx]

Either that, or I tried to define it to the best of my ability.

You mean redefine it, becuase age has a meaning and its very simple. Just because it doesnt mean what you want it to mean doesnt mean you are allowed to redefine it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Good, then you should be are aware that "BEC" means nothing.

Not hardly --- BEC melds both YEC and OEC into one, and creates a win/win situation, without having to resort to day-age, gap, and other theories. It allows one to maintain a literal translation of Genesis 1, while agreeing with radiometric dating about the age of the earth.

Means nothing? --- hardly.

Except you arent simplyfing it, you're trying to disassociate yourself from YECs by using a meaningless term. "Biblical Creationism", how does that going to describe what you believe?

I don't need to coin a term to disassociate myself from YEC's. All I need to do is say it, and assume you would respect my claim --- but apparently I'm wrong.

And Genesis 1, coupled with radiometric dating, perfectly describe what I believe (not to mention the fact that I have described it a number of times).

Then you should accept you are a YEC.

Not on your life.

All that makes you a YEC is believing the earth was created 6,000 years ago.

Maybe in your dictionary, but not mine (or Wikipedia's).

Thats it. AIG and ICR may believe the earth actually looks the age they believe it to be, whereas you dont, but thats irrelevant.

That "irrelevancy", as you call it, is your blind spot. It's causing confusion with you, not me.

You believe the earth was created 6,000 years ago, that makes you a YEC.

Keep on quoting that --- you'll eventually believe it.

You also appear to have ignored the rest of my post again!

Ya --- I know the feeling.

So lets talk about it, since we are talking about man-made words. All words are man-made. "Age" is defined by the passage of time. Its that simple.

I was asked my definition of 'age', and without looking it up (so as to give the purest definition from my perspective), I answered:

Age = the change in matter due to the passage of time.

Now I'm accused of trying to change the definition --- LOL.

Lets say I make 2 chairs. The first I make out of materials a year old.

Let's stop right here. IMO, you've already erred. You should have said 'created ex nihilo'. You're making it sound like the materials 'grew'.

If you want to be true to the Scriptures --- you didn't 'grow' anything.

 

[Ryal Kane]

I know this threads been derailed but I have to ask a simple question AV1611VET.

Do you believe that all scientific evidence points to the world being billions of years old?
i.e without a Bible to tell them otherwise, would there be any evidence that the world was other than that age?

 

[AV1611VET]

Happy Birthday!

I know this threads been derailed but I have to ask a simple question AV1611VET.

Do you believe that all scientific evidence points to the world being billions of years old?

Yes

... i.e without a Bible to tell them otherwise, would there be any evidence that the world was other than that age?

Good question!

I don't think so. I don't think any of the persons mentioned in the Bible gave the age of the Earth a second thought.

To me, it's people today that seem to make such a fuss about it.

But they need to fuss about it, as current evolution theories demand millions and millions of years of operation.

 

[JohnR7]

Not hardly --- BEC melds both YEC and OEC into one, and creates a win/win situation, without having to resort to day-age, gap, and other theories. It allows one to maintain a literal translation of Genesis 1, while agreeing with radiometric dating about the age of the earth.

It sounds like you believe in a old earth, but that it has only been inhabited with people for the last 6,000 years.

 

[Ryal Kane]

Happy Birthday!

Thanks.

"Do you believe that all scientific evidence points to the world being billions of years old?"

Yes

Well in that case, I guess you have my vote for NOT being a YEC.

Young Earth Creationism makes the false claim that scientific evidence shows the earth to be (relatively) young. From what I understand your belief doesn't so much contradict science, rather it supercedes it.
While I don't agree with that position myself, I don't think I'd consider it to be young earth creationism in the sense that most people define.

 

[combatant]

A written debate is not in Hovind's best interest. It would do him no good, and he obviously knows that. He makes his profit and fame by quick wit and fast talking, wooing a hungry audience. There are creationists who would do well in written debates, but Hovind is not one of them. He's a talker, not a writer.

 

[AV1611VET]

It sounds like you believe in a old earth, but that it has only been inhabited with people for the last 6,000 years.

That is correct --- but how it got old is where OECs and I differ.

 

[Tomk80]

Either that, or I tried to define it to the best of my ability.

Why not just use the same definition everybody uses?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why not just use the same definition everybody uses?

AGE --- Encarta Dictionary:

• the length of time that somebody or something has existed, usually expressed in years

AGE --- AV1611VET:

• a change in matter due to the passage of time

And my answer is an attempt to change the definition?

 

[Tomk80]

AGE --- Encarta Dictionary:

• the length of time that somebody or something has existed, usually expressed in years

AGE --- AV1611VET:

• a change in matter due to the passage of time

And my answer is an attempt to change the definition?

Well, no. But according to that definition you believe that the earth has an age of 6000 years. So your whole charade to deny that falls on it's face there (as was already pointed out previously).

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, no. But according to that definition you believe that the earth has an age of 6000 years. So your whole charade to deny that falls on it's face there (as was already pointed out previously).

* sigh *

 

[Tomk80]

* sigh *

Sorry man, we can't help that you have ideas that contradict themselves.

 

[shernren]

So what if AV1611VET calls himself a "Biblical Earth Creationist"? So what if everybody else insists that he's a YEC? I think it's a pointless debate. He isn't going to be any less wrong whether he calls himself a BEC, YEC, or I-can't-see, any more than Pluto became any less existent for not being called a planet.

Thread mega-derailed.

 

[Edx]

I don't need to coin a term to disassociate myself from YEC's. All I need to do is say it, and assume you would respect my claim --- but apparently I'm wrong.

If you want to say you dont believe what most YECs believe thats fine. But you are still a YEC by definition of believing the earth was created 6,000 years ago. That makes you a YEC.

And you were the one that came up with BEC, not me. My point is if you want to have a acronym like this to describe your beliefs like YECs and OECs have, then you need one that actually means something. The poster dad believes things very different from most YECs but he is still a YEC because he fits the definition, but unlike you he doesnt have a problem with that.

And Genesis 1, coupled with radiometric dating, perfectly describe what I believe (not to mention the fact that I have described it a number of times).

Why bring up radiometric dating? Im not talking about if your beliefs are correct or not. Once again, OECs, GAP and YECs all claim to follow Genesis as well. So how is saying you are different because you believe in a "Biblical earth as described in Genesis" going to differentiate yourself how? Its clearly not going to at all, and thats why its meaningless.

Maybe in your dictionary, but not mine (or Wikipedia's).

You have a dictionary that contains "YEC" or "Young Earth Creationist"? I just tried a few and couldnt find anything.

As for Wikipedia, you need to read more closely apparently. This is the introduction.

"Young Earth creationism is a religious doctrine which teaches that the Earth and life on Earth were created by a direct action of God relatively recently (about 6,000 to 10,000 years ago)."

This is exactly what you have stated you believe. This is what YEC means.

It then goes on to say:

"It is generally held by those Christians and Jews who believe that the ancient Hebrew text of Genesis is a literal account of historical events, that evidence for a strictly factual interpretation of the text is present in the world today" (emphasis mine)

Now here it says that the belief is generally held by those Christians and Jews that believe there is evidence the earth is 6,000 years old. But therefore, that doesnt mean its saying that this belief is a defining characteristic of what makes a YEC a YEC. All that makes you a YEC is that you believe what in the first sentence of the article.

Ya --- I know the feeling.

Have I ignored something you said? Later on in this post you show me you dont even bother to read peoples posts through.

I was asked my definition of 'age', and without looking it up (so as to give the purest definition from my perspective), I answered:

Age = the change in matter due to the passage of time.

Now I'm accused of trying to change the definition --- LOL.

Thats how you are defining age? "the change in matter due to the passage of time"?

In which case you cant claim the earth was created out of nothing 6,000 years ago, but is also millions of years old years old.

As myself and others have told you many times, and even according to your own definition here, for it to be millions of years old it would have had to existed for millions of years. "Years" defines a period of time. If there is no time, you cant age.

Let's stop right here. IMO, you've already erred. You should have said 'created ex nihilo'. You're making it sound like the materials 'grew'.

This is very annoying AV. Please have the courtesy to go back and finish reading my whole post before you jump to so badly misunderstand my analogy.

Something tells me this is how badly you read all my posts, and probably why you didnt notice wikipedia doesnt agree with you.

Ed

 

[Assyrian]

YEC? BEC? How about JEC,
a Jagger Earth Creationist
It looks pretty old but it's just backdated... yeah

It sounds like you are putting the trouser leg of time on the wrong way. If God creates the world 6000 years ago and only then sets off the Big Bang 15 billion years before that, what was the '6000 years ago' measured by if the world did not exist before he created it? Looking at it another way, how can God create something that has already existed 15 billion years?

And as you describe it as Biblical Earth Creationism, is there any biblical evidence for this temporal gymnastics?

 

[Edx]

It sounds like you are putting the trouser leg of time on the wrong way. If God creates the world 6000 years ago and only then sets off the Big Bang 15 billion years before that, what was the '6000 years ago' measured by if the world did not exist before he created it? ?

Funny thing is I think when AV says "embedded age" he doesnt even mean this.