Meet my Mum

[InterestedAtheist]

Hello everybody!

My name is Rowan, I'm an Interested Atheist. I've been reading the threads here for a while and thought it would be interesting to dip a toe in the water.
I'm sure I'll learn a lot here, and I'm thrilled to be taking part! This is a little question that's been bugging me for a while, just a variation on a much-debated theme.

Now let me introduce you to my mother.
She's a really lovely woman, sweet and kind. A primary school teacher who does a heroic job in a rather tough school, with saintly patience, at home and at work.
She's also not a Christian. But she really is a good person.
She doesn't deserve to spend a million, million years being perpetually roasted, having her skin shrivelled and crisped and her bones blackened in dreadful,
screaming agony. She doesn't deserve to go to hell. To think that she might somehow deserve to go to hell, to think that she could possibly deserve that kind of torture and punishment is quite literally impossible for me. When I do think about it, well...I couldn't love or worship a God who would do that to my mother.
I couldn't love a God who could see that happen and not save her as he has the power to save many others, and apparently does - therefore either effectively either condemning or abandoning her to her evil fate.

Now, I know that hell is a bit of a knotty issue, and in previous discussion with Christians I've heard of a number of versions. For the sake of this one, can we keep to one definition of hell, please? - the fire and brimstone one. That would make discussion simpler, and it is a valid Christian point of view.

So my question is this:
Will the Christians on this forum support my stand? Will they join with me in saying no, this is not right, Rowan's mother should not go to hell?
I am asking if Christians who do believe in this kind of hell would be willing to agree that my mother doesn't deserve this, and to tell God so.
And I am asking if Christians who don't believe in this kind of hell would be willing to object on my mother's behalf to God if they should die and find out that it does exist?

Thank you.

P.S.
I've tried to think of objections to this questionand have come up with these:
a. "This is not the true interpretation of hell. Hell is really (..................................................................)"
ANSWER: Thank you, but I believe the idea of hell as a place of conscious eternal fiery pain is a valid Christian point of view, and I would like to address this one.
In addition, Christians who do not believe in this kind of hell could tell me that, if it did exist, whether they would oppose God over it.

b. "If you're worried about your mother - or yourself - all you have to do is become a Christian and convert her, then you'd both be saved."
ANSWER: The point is, I feel that she doesn't deserve such punishment as it is. Converting myself and her in order to escape hell would mean that I agree with the judgement.

c. "I object to your light and frivolous treatment of this subject. There's no need to laugh at someone's deeply held beliefs."
ANSWER: I hope I haven't caused any offence. I believe it's a serious, if much-discussed, point.

d. "You don't believe in it anyway, why are you getting so worked up?"
ANSWER: Because some people do believe it, and wish me to.

e. It's not that God condemns your mother; it's rather that she's destined for hell by her own sinful nature; God wants to save her.
ANSWER: First of all, I'd like to stick to a viewpoint in which God does judge and condemn people. But in any case, God created hell and God has the power to save her and doesn't.

 

[indagroove]

God loves you and your mother, He wants to spend an eternity with both of you. As a Christian I do not like the idea of people going to Hell, but that's the way it is. Being Christian is not about being comfortable as we have to realize we are all sinners. It is purely a gift from God that he offers us salvation, we only have to accept it. Those that have heard the good news, and reject it, will not be saved.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Thank you for your answer, indagroove. Are you saying that God doesn't actually send us to hell, but is only unable to save us from it? Is this like my option (e)?
If so, if you found out that God does actually judge Mum and make a decision to send her to hell, would you object?

I'm afraid it's late where I am, so I won't be back for a few hours. Goodnight!

 

[heron]

I agree.

And IA, I enjoyed your preventative measures! You forgot the option of us quoting scriptures when the OP doesn't use scriptures for guidelines and precedents. So I have room to play...

...The[SIZE=-1][/SIZE] Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is [SIZE=-1][/SIZE]patient toward you, not [SIZE=-1][/SIZE]wishing for any to perish...
2 Pe 3:9

Throughout the Bible, God was not blind to either injustice or good character. The bit about being Christian, is allowing Him to provide a way that guarantees our salvation, so we don't need to stress over one life mistake... competition with those appearing more spiritual... unseen sins...clinical-medical inability to live righteously... or just having human flaws. He has provided a way for us to just lean back and say yes, help me.

 

[s_gunter]

Welcome to Christian Forums, and to the Questions by non Christians forum. We're glad to have you here!

Now, to elaborate more on what heron said. Yes, he is correct when he said, "Throughout the Bible, God was not blind to either injustice or good character." Romans 2:12-16 (NKJ):

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

However, here's the catch. One must "perfectly" obey these "laws." However, no one on earth can accomplish this. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

Your point a: with me, that's a moot point. I believe as you stated it here.

point b:

The point is, I feel that she doesn't deserve such punishment as it is. Converting myself and her in order to escape hell would mean that I agree with the judgement.

Here we run into another problem. It isn't us mere humans that decide. It's God's job to judge who deserves hell, and who doesn't, seeing as though He is our Creator (another point for discussion yes, but it's what I believe), not the other way around.

point c: You haven't offended me in the slightest. I actually think that you're asking a valid question.

point d: I too wish you'd convert, but it's not up to me to force that upon you. But something still has you worked up. . . (I'm assuming the best here.)

point e:

First of all, I'd like to stick to a viewpoint in which God does judge and condemn people. But in any case, God created hell and God has the power to save her and doesn't.

Oh, but He did!! This is where Jesus Christ comes in. If you believe in Him and his mission, Jesus will forgive you of your sins, wipe the slate clean, and save you from hell.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Thank you both for your friendly replies!
HERON:
Well, if you want to have fun, go ahead, Heron!

I'm not quite sure that I understand your argument. Are you saying that God saves those who abide more by the spirit than the letter? If so, that's certainly an improvement on other schools of thought that damn all non-Christians.

As I asked, though: would you voice an objection to God if you came before him and found that he had in fact thrown my Mum in hell because she was not a Christian?

S GUNTER:
Points a-d - ok, no disagreements.
Point e: A good point. I'd like to keep things on track as much as possible and head off any tangents by saying that God's plan to save us has apparently largely been a failure, since most of humanity will end up in hell - again, according to a certain view of Christianity which you may or may not share.
Given that God is omnipotent and has the power to do anything, the only reason anybody could end up in hell is if God wanted them to.
Gunter, you said, "Oh, but he did." But he didn't - by your own admission what he did was provide a way for her to be saved. That's not the same thing. She probably won't be saved; most people aren't.

TO BOTH OF YOU AND OTHERS:
For the moment, I'm not asking about how hell works and how people end up there. My question to both of you, Heron and S Gunter is:

If you were face to face to God, would you appeal to him not to burn my Mum in hell? I promise you, she really doesn't deserve to go there.

 

[heron]

Well, if you want to have fun, go ahead, Heron!
Lol. I'm such a nerd.

I'm not quite sure that I understand your argument. Are you saying that God saves those who abide more by the spirit than the letter? If so, that's certainly an improvement on other schools of thought that damn all non-Christians.
Well, let me give you some examples that tie in with this train of thought.

1. Jesus criticized religious leaders for picking on religious details instead of understanding the heart of Moses' Law.
Mt 23:24-27

2. God noticed that Noah was a good man, and honored him for that. Compare "Noah walked with God" with something we might say about a religious person... like they are so brilliant... or they can meditate for hours on end... or they have a huge following.
Genesis 6:9

3. Jesus said that many who are first will be last, and vice-versa
Matthew 19:23-30

4. God cares about justice, and does not wink at religious leaders who promote injustice in the name of spirituality.

De 16:19
You shall not distort justice; you shall not be partial, and you shall not take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts the words of the righteous.

5. Jesus taught before his resurrection about a division in Sheol where people are held accountable for thier deeds. Even though Jesus was the one who offered salvation, he also recognized the previous standards.
Luke 16:19-31

6. Abraham's faith was counted toward him as righteousness... even in OT days.
Romans 4:1-8

More OT mercy...
Psalm 32:2
How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit!

7. Some people dispute that if Abraham was saved by faith, then why did we need Jesus? (You just have to head that direction next.) This is addressed in Romans 5:1-21...too long to paste it all.

The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the resulting judgment arose from one transgression in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.


As I asked, though: would you voice an objection to God if you came before him and found that he had in fact thrown my Mum in hell because she was not a Christian?
I sure would! That's what prayer is for. She sounds like a peach.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Good man! Cheers.

Goodnight now, all...

 

[s_gunter]

S GUNTER:
Points a-d - ok, no disagreements.
Point e: A good point. I'd like to keep things on track as much as possible and head off any tangents by saying that God's plan to save us has apparently largely been a failure, since most of humanity will end up in hell - again, according to a certain view of Christianity which you may or may not share.
Given that God is omnipotent and has the power to do anything, the only reason anybody could end up in hell is if God wanted them to.
Gunter, you said, "Oh, but he did." But he didn't - by your own admission what he did was provide a way for her to be saved. That's not the same thing. She probably won't be saved; most people aren't.

TO BOTH OF YOU AND OTHERS:
For the moment, I'm not asking about how hell works and how people end up there. My question to both of you, Heron and S Gunter is:

If you were face to face to God, would you appeal to him not to burn my Mum in hell? I promise you, she really doesn't deserve to go there.

I only edited your quote to focus on what you said to me.

Red text: Think about this: Could an all good, all righteous God allow anything unpure up there with him? If He did, he wouldn't be all good, all righteous, would he? He'd only be yet another selective, discriminatory jerk no one would want to be around (I know, I know. He already sounds like one. Also, yes, God IS selective and discriminatory, but in the positive way. Even on earth, we select our friends on the basis of character, morals, and the like. God does the same thing).

It's Jesus that does the clean up work, if you will. (That's just putting it in simple terms.) See, it was MAN that fell at the beginning, so it had to be MAN that cleaned up the mess. When Jesus was humbled (become human), and brought down to earth (born of the virgin Mary), and lived the way God intended Adam to live, Jesus undid what Adam did. Jesus was crucified, He died (all on our behalf, he suffered the consequences of sin for us), but since he was the "perfect" man, God resurrected Him, and He lives in eternity with God. It's Jesus that wipes the slate clean, so that ALL that follow Him, believe in Him, do go to heaven.

God DID indeed provide the way of our salvation, by accepting Jesus's sacrifice. Jesus volunteered willingly for it. It's God's acceptance and allowance for this that gives God the credit. It's by his grace and mercy that we are allowed this "escape." Without God's grace and mercy, we'd ALL be doomed to hell, not just your mum.

As to this sentence:

She probably won't be saved; most people aren't.

All I can say is, "How would you know for sure? I won't even gamble to say "probably." It would be mere guessing. And, who am I, a mere sinful human, to guess what God's going to do? Remember, it's not up to mere man to judge, nor is it up to mere man to tell God what to do.

Blue text: You bet I'd plead God for this, face to face, or even here on earth, still living, as I have already done.

 

[Rafael]

I very much enjoyed your posted question, and thought you to be a very likeable person I could easily identify with as friend. It's nice to meet nice people, ya know...
Me Mum has to make up her own mind on things, and I fully trust God with her, especially since it was He that first thought of her and knew her from the womb. His love can hardly be imagined by us, as we are twice His - first created wonderfully in His mind from the foundations of the universe, and then by Him coming in the flesh of man as Jesus to redeem that which had become lost. How could I not believe for the best, knowing my prayers of love for her to Him were being heard by Him? My God is big enough that I trust Him with what is most precious to my heart, and I see that the scripture is true about how love, when perfected over time with Him, casts out all those fears of Hell and seperation from God. My part is to be a witness of God's love to my mother and all those mothers I meet in life to God's love.

 

[Robinsegg]

IA,
I don't know how much you know about the Christian Bible. But in it, God says He made us perfect, but we chose to become imperfect by disobeying Him.

Therefor, if your mum has ever taken a pen from the grocery store (after having used it and mistakenly placed it in her purse) she's stolen. If she's ever looked upon a man not her husband with lust she's committed either adultery or fornication. If she's ever taken the Lord's name in vain, she's a blasphemer. If she's ever lied, she's a liar.

God looks upon the heart. The Bible says that all we do outside of Him is like filthy rags trying to clean us up.

But (and this is where I hope to really answer one of your questions), I believe that He reveals Himself to anyone truly searching for the Truth. Therefore, if your mum is looking for the Truth and has been looking in some other system of belief, I think God shows Himself to her and she can be saved, even if she never hears the name Jesus. It's not the name, it's the faith that's required.

As far as her being "bad enough" to merit Hell . . . Hell is the absence of Good (the goodness God provides) as a validation of a person's choice to be outside a relationship with God in life. If your mum chooses not to have anything to do with God in life, God will simply honor that choice. Unfortunately, w/o the goodness God provides, you end up in Hell as you describe above.

Rachel

 

[Momzilla]

Okay, I'm going to have a stab at this, from an Orthodox point of view.

I'm going to start by breaking one of your rules, I'm afraid. For your edification, if nothing else, I'm going to provide the Orthodox version of "hell", because it bears very closely on your question and may give you some comfort regarding your mother.

In Orthodox thought, after one dies one spends eternity (both before the return of Christ and after) in the presence of God. For those who love God, His light is a joyous warmth and comfort. For those who hate God, it is a burning fire. Given how your mother lives her life, how do you think she will experience the love of God (from which all acts of love for others flows)?

Okay, enough with the rulebreaking. I *can* address from the viewpoint of a God that judges, because God surely does do that. Orthodox belief is that God judges by what we know, and by what we do. Suppose, for example, that person A spends her life loving other people as best she can--caring for the sick, giving to the poor, being a good mom and wife, etc. Also suppose that her only exposure to Christianity is profoundly negative, so she refuses to convert to Christianity.

Now imagine person B, who goes to church every Sunday of her life, but lies to her friends, cheats on her husband, and has no thought whatever for those less fortunate than her.

Person A lives faith but does not profess it; Person B professes faith but does not live it. An Orthodox Christian would not presume to say which one of the two, if either, is saved (we don't even say that of ourselves). However, the God I know and worship is going to go a lot easier on Person A.

This is not to say that there is no benefit to being a Christian. God calls us to grow in love for Him, and to sanctify ourselves. That means being a part of His body, the church. Willful refusal to acknowledge him (e.g., if Person A had every reason to accept Christ, and yet willfully refused to do so) will be judged, just as everything else will.

If I can sum up (this is going rather long), there is no such thing as a "get to heaven free" card, nor is there a "go to hell no matter what" card.

 

[salida]

Hello everybody!

My name is Rowan, I'm an Interested Atheist. I've been reading the threads here for a while and thought it would be interesting to dip a toe in the water.
I'm sure I'll learn a lot here, and I'm thrilled to be taking part! This is a little question that's been bugging me for a while, just a variation on a much-debated theme.

Now let me introduce you to my mother.
She's a really lovely woman, sweet and kind. A primary school teacher who does a heroic job in a rather tough school, with saintly patience, at home and at work.
She's also not a Christian. But she really is a good person.
She doesn't deserve to spend a million, million years being perpetually roasted, having her skin shrivelled and crisped and her bones blackened in dreadful,
screaming agony. She doesn't deserve to go to hell. To think that she might somehow deserve to go to hell, to think that she could possibly deserve that kind of torture and punishment is quite literally impossible for me. When I do think about it, well...I couldn't love or worship a God who would do that to my mother.
I couldn't love a God who could see that happen and not save her as he has the power to save many others, and apparently does - therefore either effectively either condemning or abandoning her to her evil fate.

Now, I know that hell is a bit of a knotty issue, and in previous discussion with Christians I've heard of a number of versions. For the sake of this one, can we keep to one definition of hell, please? - the fire and brimstone one. That would make discussion simpler, and it is a valid Christian point of view.

So my question is this:
Will the Christians on this forum support my stand? Will they join with me in saying no, this is not right, Rowan's mother should not go to hell?
I am asking if Christians who do believe in this kind of hell would be willing to agree that my mother doesn't deserve this, and to tell God so.
And I am asking if Christians who don't believe in this kind of hell would be willing to object on my mother's behalf to God if they should die and find out that it does exist?

Thank you.

P.S.
I've tried to think of objections to this questionand have come up with these:
a. "This is not the true interpretation of hell. Hell is really (..................................................................)"
ANSWER: Thank you, but I believe the idea of hell as a place of conscious eternal fiery pain is a valid Christian point of view, and I would like to address this one.
In addition, Christians who do not believe in this kind of hell could tell me that, if it did exist, whether they would oppose God over it.

b. "If you're worried about your mother - or yourself - all you have to do is become a Christian and convert her, then you'd both be saved."
ANSWER: The point is, I feel that she doesn't deserve such punishment as it is. Converting myself and her in order to escape hell would mean that I agree with the judgement.

c. "I object to your light and frivolous treatment of this subject. There's no need to laugh at someone's deeply held beliefs."
ANSWER: I hope I haven't caused any offence. I believe it's a serious, if much-discussed, point.

d. "You don't believe in it anyway, why are you getting so worked up?"
ANSWER: Because some people do believe it, and wish me to.

e. It's not that God condemns your mother; it's rather that she's destined for hell by her own sinful nature; God wants to save her.
ANSWER: First of all, I'd like to stick to a viewpoint in which God does judge and condemn people. But in any case, God created hell and God has the power to save her and doesn't.

Interestedathiest - None of us "deserve to go to heaven". I'm just the messenger and didn't write the Bible.

Yes, the Bible is true - when you get down to the details and facts. Its the most true book in the world - historically - secular historians will tell you this. Its the only religious book that has hundreds of prophesies in it that have come true - detailed prophesies. Archaeologically proves it more and more nonstop. If you want to know more let me know - many books out there.

God has given man a lot of big hints!!

Jesus said you will know them by their fruits - their actions. A christian is christ like - not a little bit mixed in with the world. There are "professors" - a christian in name only - and don't live it and the "possessors" - they live it and its obvious to others.

 

[Adstar]

Hello everybody!

My name is Rowan, I'm an Interested Atheist. I've been reading the threads here for a while and thought it would be interesting to dip a toe in the water.
I'm sure I'll learn a lot here, and I'm thrilled to be taking part! This is a little question that's been bugging me for a while, just a variation on a much-debated theme.

Now let me introduce you to my mother.
She's a really lovely woman, sweet and kind. A primary school teacher who does a heroic job in a rather tough school, with saintly patience, at home and at work.
She's also not a Christian. But she really is a good person.
She doesn't deserve to spend a million, million years being perpetually roasted, having her skin shrivelled and crisped and her bones blackened in dreadful,
screaming agony. She doesn't deserve to go to hell. To think that she might somehow deserve to go to hell, to think that she could possibly deserve that kind of torture and punishment is quite literally impossible for me. When I do think about it, well...I couldn't love or worship a God who would do that to my mother.
I couldn't love a God who could see that happen and not save her as he has the power to save many others, and apparently does - therefore either effectively either condemning or abandoning her to her evil fate.

Now, I know that hell is a bit of a knotty issue, and in previous discussion with Christians I've heard of a number of versions. For the sake of this one, can we keep to one definition of hell, please? - the fire and brimstone one. That would make discussion simpler, and it is a valid Christian point of view.

So my question is this:
Will the Christians on this forum support my stand? Will they join with me in saying no, this is not right, Rowan's mother should not go to hell?

Hello I will not support your stand because your stand is based on a false foundation. No matter how many good things your mother does she is still a sinner. People are not condemned to the lake of fire for the nice things that have done but because of the evil deeds and thoughts that have done. We are excluded from eternity with God because we are not perfect. God has provided a way for imperfect beings to be made acceptable to Him in eternity by providing atonement for our imperfection via our belief in The Messiah Jesus. You and your mother have the ability to accept the gift of salvation by believing Jesus.

I am asking if Christians who do believe in this kind of hell would be willing to agree that my mother doesn't deserve this, and to tell God so.

Gods will shall be done on this issue. We cannot ask God to spare someone who has rejected the Messiah Jesus as their Lord and Redeemer. We can pray for many things. We can pray that you and your mother are given the knowledge you need to be able to make the choice to either accept or reject salvation. But we cannot pray someone into being saved. That’s a choice you and your mother must make.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Thanks for your replies, both of you! From here it's going to go on to uncertain ground, but I'll just post what I think and we'll see what happens.

I only edited your quote to focus on what you said to me.

OK!

Red text: Think about this: Could an all good, all righteous God allow anything unpure up there with him? If He did, he wouldn't be all good, all righteous, would he? He'd only be yet another selective, discriminatory jerk no one would want to be around (I know, I know. He already sounds like one. Also, yes, God IS selective and discriminatory, but in the positive way. Even on earth, we select our friends on the basis of character, morals, and the like. God does the same thing).

That doesn't sound right. I'd say that an all-good God would allow anything up there with him, even impure things.
But this is an interesting thought: Only pure things are allowed up there with God? But Christians aren't pure themselves, as they admit. Evidently something happens to purify them so they are fitted for heaven. What could it be? The answer I would expect is that their sins are forgiven since they accept Christ's sacrifice. but this doesn't seem to make sense. Why couldn't God just forgive everybody, regardless of whether or not they are Christians?
And, in the final analysis, if God doesn't want ot override people's free will by sending them to heaven - well, hell is certainly much worse! (IF we're talking about the traditional view of hell, which I am). So why couldn;t God just override our free will and change us into Christians forcibly?

It's Jesus that does the clean up work, if you will. (That's just putting it in simple terms.) See, it was MAN that fell at the beginning, so it had to be MAN that cleaned up the mess. When Jesus was humbled (become human), and brought down to earth (born of the virgin Mary), and lived the way God intended Adam to live, Jesus undid what Adam did. Jesus was crucified, He died (all on our behalf, he suffered the consequences of sin for us), but since he was the "perfect" man, God resurrected Him, and He lives in eternity with God. It's Jesus that wipes the slate clean, so that ALL that follow Him, believe in Him, do go to heaven.

God DID indeed provide the way of our salvation, by accepting Jesus's sacrifice. Jesus volunteered willingly for it. It's God's acceptance and allowance for this that gives God the credit. It's by his grace and mercy that we are allowed this "escape." Without God's grace and mercy, we'd ALL be doomed to hell, not just your mum.

I see...
Never the less, it seems that God has failed, hasn't he? I mean, if he wants all people to go to heaven, and they obviously don't, then it means that God's plan didn't work.

As to this sentence: All I can say is, "How would you know for sure? I won't even gamble to say "probably." It would be mere guessing. And, who am I, a mere sinful human, to guess what God's going to do? Remember, it's not up to mere man to judge, nor is it up to mere man to tell God what to do.

I understand how one might feel too small or unworthy to judge God; but using "judge" in the sense of forming an opinion, we judge someone all the time. Whenever you say God is good, you judge him. Therefore, although we have no power to affect God, we do have the ability to object to his decisions if we judge them to be "not good".

Blue text: You bet I'd plead God for this, face to face, or even here on earth, still living, as I have already done.

Thanks!

I very much enjoyed your posted question, and thought you to be a very likeable person I could easily identify with as friend. It's nice to meet nice people, ya know...

Thanks a lot, Rafael. you too!

 

[Robinsegg]

That doesn't sound right. I'd say that an all-good God would allow anything up there with him, even impure things.

God is a compassionate and forgiving God, but He's also a God of justice. He cannot be in the same place as sin. That's why God the Father turned His back on Jesus on the cross. When our sin rested on Jesus, God could not be there with Jesus ("why have you forsaken me" time when the sun went dark).

But this is an interesting thought: Only pure things are allowed up there with God? But Christians aren't pure themselves, as they admit. Evidently something happens to purify them so they are fitted for heaven. What could it be? The answer I would expect is that their sins are forgiven since they accept Christ's sacrifice. but this doesn't seem to make sense. Why couldn't God just forgive everybody, regardless of whether or not they are Christians?

God wants us to choose Him. If He'd wanted people who would simply follow Him because He said so, He'd have made robots with no free will instead of people.
Does your mother choose to love you, or is she forced to love you with no choice in the matter? Would her love mean less to you if she had no choice? Would time spent with you have less meaning if she spent it with you grudgingly? This is what God sees in you and your mother. He doesn't want someone to love Him because He forced them to. That's not love. It may be obligation.

And, in the final analysis, if God doesn't want ot override people's free will by sending them to heaven - well, hell is certainly much worse! (IF we're talking about the traditional view of hell, which I am). So why couldn;t God just override our free will and change us into Christians forcibly?

God gave you free will. How do you choose to use it? How does your mum choose to use it? God gave us a way to get to Heaven, and all He asks us to do for it is accept it. He's done all the work for you. That's like someone paying for you to get into a theme park, driving you there, getting a golf cart to drive you around in and all you have to do is say "okay" and go on the rides.

Rachel

 

[Key]

So my question is this:
Will the Christians on this forum support my stand? Will they join with me in saying no, this is not right, Rowan's mother should not go to hell?

Ok, now let me see if I have this right, your asking me if I would tell my Lord and Creator, an "all seeing", "all knowing", "all powerful" Being of Absloute Justuce and Love, that he is wrong?

I would, could, and can not do it. I have faith that God is Just.

The same way I place my own Soul into His Gods Judgment, I do so knowing that God is Just, and that God will make no mistakes.

This is not something I would do, no matter what Hell is, I could not say I am a believer, and say that I do not trust Gods Judgemnt in the same breath.

I hope I have answered this Question for you.

God Bless

Key

 

[Breaking Babylon]

I believe there have been very good questions and answers posted here! If I may, Rowan, I'd like to touch base with you on something you posted:

That doesn't sound right. I'd say that an all-good God would allow anything up there with him, even impure things.
But this is an interesting thought: Only pure things are allowed up there with God? But Christians aren't pure themselves, as they admit. Evidently something happens to purify them so they are fitted for heaven. What could it be? The answer I would expect is that their sins are forgiven since they accept Christ's sacrifice. but this doesn't seem to make sense. Why couldn't God just forgive everybody, regardless of whether or not they are Christians?

My rather simple answer? Like any good gift, it must be accepted.

I hope that you find all you are looking for here with us at CF.

 

[heron]

Why couldn't God just forgive everybody, regardless of whether or not they are Christians?

Looking from the standpoint of a normal decent person, this makes sense. But imagine that someone raped your friend. Or ran up your credit cards. Or told lies about you. Would you wish that God just forgave him and accepted him into heaven?

There is a debt to pay to society. We always talk about a debt to God, and that makes Him the bad guy. But every bad action impacts other people.

So how does One deal with a person who regrets what they've done to others, but still has the choice they made in their history? Instead of just clearing the history, Jesus did what it took to pay the debt for the crimes.

 

[Adstar]

I see...
Never the less, it seems that God has failed, hasn't he? I mean, if he wants all people to go to heaven, and they obviously don't, then it means that God's plan didn't work.

Do you believe the main purpose of Gods existence is the universe? You seem to believe Gods main focus is on us. That He is somehow bound to the universal creation. That His success or otherwise is dependant on our reaction to Him.

Remember the universe and all in it is Gods tool, not the other way around.

God stated His will through the Holy Spirit that He did not will it for any man to be Lost. But that does not mean that Gods will is for all tom be saved. It means that Gods will if for as many to be saved as possible. That all men are free to accept salvation. He had achieved His will through Jesus. So if people go to the lake of fire its not a failure of God, It is a failure of the lost who reject the gift that Jesus secured.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days