Eternal Hell and Torment is a big fat Lie.

[Charlie V]

No actually it implies that all will come to have faith and does not place artifical boundries on the power of God to accomplish his will.

Agreed.. it is the artificial boundries that are the heresy. Not the fulfillment of God's plan.

Those who would begrudge salvation to others, patting themselves on the back for their own acceptance and condemning others for their non-acceptance, is very much like the parable of the laborors in the vineyard.

Whether someone comes to God now, next week, next year or 1,000 years from now, who are we to begrudge God the return of the ones He loved so much He sent His Son?

Let us not forget the first half of John 3:16.. For God so loved the world, not, For God so loved the believers. Who are we to say He must stop loving some of us?

Charlie

 

[EchoPneuma]

Jon, even though Ducklow has said that universalists believe that people get to heaven without faith, that is not true. That's not what we believe at all.

We believe the bible when it says "God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance".

If one comes to repentance, then one will have faith.

We also believe what Paul says when he tells Timothy:

"God wills ALL MEN to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth".

If a person comes to a knowledge of the truth...and Jesus is the embodiment of truth....then they will come to a knowledge of Him and faith will be the result.

Some people come to this faith without having to see Jesus face to face....but others, like Thomas, must see Him face to face first before they will come to a knowledge of the truth and have faith.

For Thomas, that face to face encounter was possible with Jesus in the flesh....for others it is only possible after they die.....at which time they will see and believe...

...and as THomas proclaimed once he had HIS proof...

"My Lord and My God"....God says that....

"EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God".

 

[Kimberlyann]

Ro 10:9 -That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Ro 10:10 -For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.


I didn't read any stipulation that says this confession must take place before one dies.

 

[Kimberlyann]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Isaiah 26[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]26:9 My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness. [/FONT]

 

[Jon0388g]

Wow so you do believe that everyone will be in heaven. Even Hitler?

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

You say let us not forget the first half of John 3:16 - but what of the second lol? "...so that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

I'm suprised that people believe this - doesn't this mean we can all stop trying to be good followers of Christ if we are all going to be saved anyway? He is the Saviour of the world. But that does not imply the whole world will be saved; He came "...that the world might be saved through Him." We all have the choice whether or whether not to believe, and to be saved.

Yes, Phil 2:10 describes how every knee shall bow, but the wicked will only do this upon acknowledging the fairness and justness of God’s judgement. Romans 14:10 says “We shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ.” The purpose of this is to not only decide who and who will not enter God’s kingdom, but also to show us that God’s decision is fair and true. It is entirely up to us what fate we choose. It will be a final day when God’s justice will once and forevermore be resolved, and indeed every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord.

I challenge anyone to produce scripture that indicates that all mankind is saved!!
“In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves being thrown out.” Luke 13:28

“And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:15

God Bless

 

[EchoPneuma]

The plan of God is so profound, yet so simple, that most people miss it...

God intends to save everyone....to seek and to save that which was lost.

....and aren't we ALL lost according to scripture?

Therefore, He will seek and SAVE every last one of us lost sheep.

Simple....

 

[EchoPneuma]

Jon, do you believe Hitler's sins are stronger than the blood of Jesus?

The bible says "He died for our sins, but not for our sins ONLY, also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

Jesus died for Hitler's sins. He suffered, bled, died and rose again to cover Hitler's sins.

So, if Hitler goes to hell for his sins, then you're saying that the blood of Jesus wasn't sufficient to pay for the sins of Hitler.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Wow so you do believe that everyone will be in heaven. Even Hitler?

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

You say let us not forget the first half of John 3:16 - but what of the second lol? "...so that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

I'm suprised that people believe this - doesn't this mean we can all stop trying to be good followers of Christ if we are all going to be saved anyway? He is the Saviour of the world. But that does not imply the whole world will be saved; He came "...that the world might be saved through Him." We all have the choice whether or whether not to believe, and to be saved.

Yes, Phil 2:10 describes how every knee shall bow, but the wicked will only do this upon acknowledging the fairness and justness of God’s judgement. Romans 14:10 says “We shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ.” The purpose of this is to not only decide who and who will not enter God’s kingdom, but also to show us that God’s decision is fair and true. It is entirely up to us what fate we choose. It will be a final day when God’s justice will once and forevermore be resolved, and indeed every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord.

I challenge anyone to produce scripture that indicates that all mankind is saved!!
“In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves being thrown out.” Luke 13:28

“And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:15

God Bless

How about two?

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]New International Version [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Timothy 4[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:11 Command and teach these things. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]New International Version [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 John 2[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. [/FONT][/FONT]


[/FONT]

 

[Jon0388g]

Sorry Kimberly I posted that before seeing your previous posts. But I still think that your two verses definately do not mean that everyone will be saved.

I think there is a serious mixup when the Bible says 'Saviour of all men' - Jesus is the Saviour of all men - not all men accept Jesus as their Saviour. "..whosoever believes" will inherit eternal life. If Jesus' death means that everyone is saved - there is still no choice in the matter, and mankind is saved whether we want to be or not. He is the Saviour of all men in this sense, but He is also the Saviour in that none of us would be able to get to the kingdom unless He died for our sins; ".. 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." John 14:6

1 John 2:2 simply is emphasising that yes He died for the sins of the world - but this underlines my point that through this every man has the "free gift of grace" to be saved, for without it we are all condemned. Of course Hitler's sins are covered by the blood of Christ, it is just unfortunate that Hitler chose not to accept the free gift of Salvation through Christ.

1 John also goes on to say "Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also..... This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." 1 John 2:23, 25

Just a few questions: If we are all going to be saved, why does Jesus not return right now and end all the suffering and pain, if we are all to confess His name and some point anyway? If we are all saved, what was the point of the whole of human history of pain and suffering and sin in the first place? What of the numerous verses throughout Scripture that point to the Judgement and the eternal life of the righteous and the eternal death of the wicked? Doesn't it seem unfair to those martyr's that lived tortured persecuted lives and died horrible deaths for Christ that we will all be saved anyways, when the secular and care-free among us can live relatively trouble-free lives and not have to worry about living righteously for God, because we will all be saved?

Jon

 

[Charlie V]

There are two paths to the false hell doctrine.

One is generally associated with the Arminians. It is the one Jon has chosen. The "free will is stronger than God" path.

God is all-loving but not all-powerful. Man's "free will" is of greater power than God. Some people "choose" to be in hell.

Which is utter nonsense -- nobody "chooses" hell, and God would not be merciful and loving if He allowed such a "free choice." It would be like allowing your toddler to jump into a fire, with the argument, "Well, he chose to do it!" And our knowledge makes us less than a toddler compared to God.

The other path is generally associated with Augustinians and Calvinists.

God is all-powerful but not all-loving. He predestines some people to eternal torture. He created some people for the sole purpose that He may torture them eternally, because He likes torturing them eternally.

In neither of these cases, however, is Christ "the savior of the world."

In neither of these cases, is Christ "the ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

In neither of these cases was the angel right when he said, "Behold, I bring you good news of great joy which shall be for all people."

If people have free will to reject, then God has greater free will to accept them anyway. God's will cannot be denied. The Bible tells us that "no one can stay His hand." He is all-powerful.

So when Christ said, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." Did the Father say, "But Son, they don't want to be forgiven!' And did Christ say, "You're right, Dad. Let them be tortured forever in fire!"

No. They didn't ask to be forgiven. They didn't want to be forgiven. But even as they were in the process of crucifying Christ, they were already forgiven.

So, Christ is, the savior of the world!


Charlie

 

[EchoPneuma]

Sorry Kimberly I posted that before seeing your previous posts. But I still think that your two verses definately do not mean that everyone will be saved.

But that IS what it says.

I think there is a serious mixup when the Bible says 'Saviour of all men' - Jesus is the Saviour of all men - not all men accept Jesus as their Saviour.

Then how can Jesus be the saviour of ALL MEN, if He doesn't save ALL MEN?

He would be the offerer of salvation to ALL MEN, and the potential saviour of all men but only the saviour of SOME MEN, according to what you believe....

...but that's not what the bible says. I believe the mix up is in what we've all been taught for so long.

"..whosoever believes" will inherit eternal life.

"Aionion" life is a gift for those with faith. It's not "eternal"...that word "aionion" means "age enduring". Those with faith in this life have a special quality to life that those without faith forfeit. But ALL will eventually have an eternity in heaven with God. The bible says so.

If Jesus' death means that everyone is saved - there is still no choice in the matter, and mankind is saved whether we want to be or not.

Who wouldn't want to be saved once they know the truth and come to repentance?

He is the Saviour of all men in this sense, but He is also the Saviour in that none of us would be able to get to the kingdom unless He died for our sins; ".. 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." John 14:6

He was sent by the Father to be the saviour of the WORLD according to John. Did Jesus fail in His mission to save the world? Did He seek and save that which was lost....or just SOME of that which was lost?

1 John 2:2 simply is emphasising that yes He died for the sins of the world - but this underlines my point that through this every man has the "free gift of grace" to be saved, for without it we are all condemned.

Then everyone is saved. He died for the sins of ALL MEN. They are ALL redeemed.

Of course Hitler's sins are covered by the blood of Christ, it is just unfortunate that Hitler chose not to accept the free gift of Salvation through Christ.

That's talking about of both sides of your mouth. If Hitler's sins are covered then it doesn't matter if he accepts it or not....it's a done deal. His sins are covered. Jesus tasted death for him, just like He tasted death for ALL MEN according to scripture. That means that Hitler won't have to taste spirititual death himself, because Jesus took it for him.

The fact that Hitler was unrepentant in this life, doesn't change the fact that his sins are covered. He is redeemed just like everyone else. The blood of Jesus washed away ALL SIN....and Paul says "where sin abounded (and sin certainly abounded with Hitler), then grace did much more abound.

1 John also goes on to say "Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also..... This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." 1 John 2:23, 25

Yes, and at some point each and EVERY person will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God"....

Just a few questions: If we are all going to be saved, why does Jesus not return right now and end all the suffering and pain,

I'm a preterist. I believe Jesus DID return at the end of the generation that crucified Him....just like He said He would. He's been here ever since as the "life giving Spirit" like Paul says.

And He HAS ended all pain and suffering in the spirit realm....everyone is redeemed. There is now "good will toward men".

if we are all to confess His name and some point anyway? If we are all saved, what was the point of the whole of human history of pain and suffering and sin in the first place?

Ask God. Only He knows that one. But the bible does say that we were ALL created for His PLEASURE....and I can't imagine God getting any pleasure out of even one person spending an eternity in torment.

What of the numerous verses throughout Scripture that point to the Judgement and the eternal life of the righteous and the eternal death of the wicked?

Yes, there is judgement. But it's not that someone has to spend an eternity in torment. That's not justice, that is cruelty.

There is no scripture that talks about "eternal death". Doesn't exist.

Doesn't it seem unfair to those martyr's that lived tortured persecuted lives and died horrible deaths for Christ that we will all be saved anyways, when the secular and care-free among us can live relatively trouble-free lives and not have to worry about living righteously for God, because we will all be saved?

Jon

In this life, perhaps things don't seem fair, but God's not concerned with how things SEEM right now, He is concerned with how they end up in eternity.

Perhaps those martyrs will have more rewards than others...who knows. God is just...a person reaps what they sow.

 

[Charlie V]

Just a few questions: If we are all going to be saved, why does Jesus not return right now and end all the suffering and pain, if we are all to confess His name and some point anyway? If we are all saved, what was the point of the whole of human history of pain and suffering and sin in the first place? What of the numerous verses throughout Scripture that point to the Judgement and the eternal life of the righteous and the eternal death of the wicked? Doesn't it seem unfair to those martyr's that lived tortured persecuted lives and died horrible deaths for Christ that we will all be saved anyways, when the secular and care-free among us can live relatively trouble-free lives and not have to worry about living righteously for God, because we will all be saved?

Jon

These questions make no sense in relation to the question of universalism vs. the hell doctrine.

If some people go to hell.. then.. all the same questions you listed above. The doctrine of hell doesn't answer any of those questions.

"What was the point of the whole of human history of pain and suffering and sin in the first place?" for example.

Are you saying the point of the whole human history of pain and suffering and sin is.. so that some people can go to heaven and some people can go to hell? That makes no sense.

"Doesn't it seem unfair to those martyr's that lived tortured persecuted lives and died horrible deaths for Christ that we will all be saved anyways"

Doesn't it seem unfair to those martyr's that lived tortured persecuted lives and died horrible deaths for Christ that some will go to hell anyways?

How does the hell doctrine answer any of these questions? It doesn't.

It's exactly like one of the most common responses to universalism. "If we're all saved, why did Jesus have to die?" To which I counter, if some people go to hell, why did Jesus have to die? To me, the hell doctrine doesn't provide the reason for Jesus' death -- it defeats it!

Human suffering, including the suffering of the martyrs, is the reason we should turn from sin, the reason we should be kind and loving, the reason we should be good to our fellow man, the reason we should be Good Samaritans, out of compassion and love. Because we care about the other guy, not because we're looking out for our own selves!

The fear of hell or the greedy lust for reward.. is not the reason we should do those things.

But the assurance is that the suffering will end. For all of us.

The martyrs did not suffer because they wanted to send some people to hell. They suffered because they wanted the good news of great joy to be spread -- here and now -- that we should love one another, and work to reduce the suffering in the now, for we are all brothers in the end.

when the secular and care-free among us can live relatively trouble-free lives and not have to worry about living righteously for God,

This is a straw-man argument.

Nobody claimed anybody "can live relatively trouble-free lives."

Let me pick a random sin. Stealing. Do you think that the universalist doctrine says that people can steal all they want and the police will never pick them up, and they will never be put on trial, and they will never suffer violence or retribution?

Of course not. There is no "relatively trouble-free life," and certainly not for those who commit sin on a regular basis.

Charlie

 

[Soul Searcher]

Human suffering, including the suffering of the martyrs, is the reason we should turn from sin, the reason we should be kind and loving, the reason we should be good to our fellow man, the reason we should be Good Samaritans, out of compassion and love. Because we care about the other guy, not because we're looking out for our own selves!

The fear of hell or the greedy lust for reward.. is not the reason we should do those things.

But the assurance is that the suffering will end. For all of us.

 

[Charlie V]

Thank you, SS.

But if anyone else still doesn't believe me.

There's a passage, one of my favorites, that I often use when people claim that certain diseases or certain natural disasters are God's punishment for sin.. or for liberalism or some such thing.

There's a passage where Jesus was asked, of a blind man, did his sin, or his parents sin, cause his blindness.

Jesus answered, neither, that his blindness was so that God's power can be made manifest in him. And then Jesus healed him.

The purpose of suffering is this:

That we may learn to be compassionate, and ease the suffering.

If there's a lesson to be learned when someone else is suffering, the lesson isn't that that person did something wrong or that that person will suffer forever, or that we should point out all the things other people do wrong that will make them suffer or make them suffer forever..

The lesson is that we have to do something about that suffering. That our work isn't done, because we are needed to ease suffering. We shouldn't look down at the man in the gutter and say, "Oh, what he did to put himself there!" We need to be good Samaritans, and bind his wounds, and not judge.

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

Who wouldn't want to be saved once they know the truth and come to repentance?

People who follow my posts know the answer..

Given the choice between heaven and hell, there are exactly three ways that anyone could choose hell over heaven.

1. The person is unknowing. They don't know the truth. Which isn't really free will because they don't know what they're choosing.

2. The person is insane. They have brain damage. They aren't thinking clearly. They're drunk or on drugs. Which really isn't free will because their thinking is impaired.

3. There's a valid reason that a sane, knowing person would make the choice. There's something bad about heaven. There's something good about hell. Heaven is a place of suffering. Hell is a nice place to be. Which is free will, but it's not the concept of heaven or hell we've been taught.

Charlie

 

[Jon0388g]

O--k, instead of me answering all the hundreds of opinions against my view, I will try to respond to the ones which stuck out the most.
Firstly:

“One is generally associated with the Arminians. It is the one Jon has chosen. The "free will is stronger than God" path.

God is all-loving but not all-powerful. Man's "free will" is of greater power than God. Some people "choose" to be in hell.

Which is utter nonsense -- nobody "chooses" hell, and God would not be merciful and loving if He allowed such a "free choice." It would be like allowing your toddler to jump into a fire, with the argument, "Well, he chose to do it!" And our knowledge makes us less than a toddler compared to God.”

You are taking my comments out of context and plastering your own assumptions onto them. Please refrain.

This is ridiculous. Firstly, the child has no concept of death. Secondly, this analogy fails to stand because if we are applying it to what God allowed with the human race, you are forgetting to add on the fact that before the child jumped, God specifically told the child not to jump, because the child would die. (Genesis 2:17). You are also forgetting to add on to this scenario that the parent already knows that the child will jump, and, like any loving parent, already has a plan devised to save the child from death in place. Please don’t presume to use such analogies if they hold no water, and which also insult our Creator, as you clearly know little about the views I hold or the true nature of our Lord.

Free-will is another debate altogether but I am deeply disturbed to find a fellow Christian that feels our loving God does not give us the choice to obey Him or not to obey Him.

“But ALL will eventually have an eternity in heaven with God. The bible says so”

Could you please reference where in Scripture this is said.

If so, then Scripture surely contradicts itself: “..This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:14-15. From these texts I gather that some names will not be in the book of life, and they will partake of the second death. Any other interpretations of this?

“Who wouldn't want to be saved once they know the truth and come to repentance?”

This is the tragedy of those who have chosen their paths my friend. I totally agree with you here, and in my own opinion I do believe that at this time when every knee shall bow, there will be some who truly regret the decision they have made, but they have made it nonetheless.

“Are you saying the point of the whole human history of pain and suffering and sin is.. so that some people can go to heaven and some people can go to hell? That makes no sense.”

My standpoint on human history is to fully vindicate our God who has purposefully allowed mankind to act out his own desire to practice evil in order to show to us and to the other creations the results of sin, and the reasons why God has told us to obey Him. Lucifer the accuser wants everyone to believe that God is totally unfair, has Laws we cannot keep, wants us to obey Him at all costs or else He’ll zap us. Our Father let Lucifer and humans follow their own free will by His mercy, and by His grace gave Jesus His Son so that ALL MEN might be saved. Again, I’ll say it: whosoever believes. If we refuse Jesus Christ as our saviour and coverer of our sins, the wages of our sin is death. If after all of that we are still saved even though we refuse our Saviour, then satan’s charge remains; we cannot choose anything other than God.

Again, I will ask of your opinions on the text which explicitly state the death of the wicked in the lake of fire, of those who do not have eternal life etc. “He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.” 1 John 5:12

“But the assurance is that the suffering will end. For all of us.”

Amen. Suffering will end one day, because the unbelievers will be dead, and the believing will be in heaven enjoying eternal life!

On that note I will end as I think we are getting off topic here. We all agree (at least I think we do) that there is no such thing as eternal burning/suffering in hell. Whether or not we are all saved is topic for a different thread, and I will be more than glad to resume the debate elsewhere. Perhaps one of those of the universalist view would care to start this as a thread in General Theology?

Jon

 

[2ducklow]

O--k, instead of me answering all the hundreds of opinions against my view, I will try to respond to the ones which stuck out the most.
Firstly:



You are taking my comments out of context and plastering your own assumptions onto them. Please refrain.

This is ridiculous. Firstly, the child has no concept of death. Secondly, this analogy fails to stand because if we are applying it to what God allowed with the human race, you are forgetting to add on the fact that before the child jumped, God specifically told the child not to jump, because the child would die. (Genesis 2:17). You are also forgetting to add on to this scenario that the parent already knows that the child will jump, and, like any loving parent, already has a plan devised to save the child from death in place. Please don’t presume to use such analogies if they hold no water, and which also insult our Creator, as you clearly know little about the views I hold or the true nature of our Lord.

Free-will is another debate altogether but I am deeply disturbed to find a fellow Christian that feels our loving God does not give us the choice to obey Him or not to obey Him.



Could you please reference where in Scripture this is said.

If so, then Scripture surely contradicts itself: “..This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:14-15. From these texts I gather that some names will not be in the book of life, and they will partake of the second death. Any other interpretations of this?



This is the tragedy of those who have chosen their paths my friend. I totally agree with you here, and in my own opinion I do believe that at this time when every knee shall bow, there will be some who truly regret the decision they have made, but they have made it nonetheless.



My standpoint on human history is to fully vindicate our God who has purposefully allowed mankind to act out his own desire to practice evil in order to show to us and to the other creations the results of sin, and the reasons why God has told us to obey Him. Lucifer the accuser wants everyone to believe that God is totally unfair, has Laws we cannot keep, wants us to obey Him at all costs or else He’ll zap us. Our Father let Lucifer and humans follow their own free will by His mercy, and by His grace gave Jesus His Son so that ALL MEN might be saved. Again, I’ll say it: whosoever believes. If we refuse Jesus Christ as our saviour and coverer of our sins, the wages of our sin is death. If after all of that we are still saved even though we refuse our Saviour, then satan’s charge remains; we cannot choose anything other than God.

Again, I will ask of your opinions on the text which explicitly state the death of the wicked in the lake of fire, of those who do not have eternal life etc. “He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.” 1 John 5:12



Amen. Suffering will end one day, because the unbelievers will be dead, and the believing will be in heaven enjoying eternal life!

On that note I will end as I think we are getting off topic here. We all agree (at least I think we do) that there is no such thing as eternal burning/suffering in hell. Whether or not we are all saved is topic for a different thread, and I will be more than glad to resume the debate elsewhere. Perhaps one of those of the universalist view would care to start this as a thread in General Theology?

Jon

On that note I will end as I think we are getting off topic here. We all agree (at least I think we do) that there is no such thing as eternal burning/suffering in hell. Whether or not we are all saved is topic for a different thread, and I will be more than glad to resume the debate elsewhere. Perhaps one of those of the universalist view would care to start this as a thread in General Theology?

Jon

Hey don't I count????. There is such a thing as eternal torment in a lake of fire. Scripture plainly states it.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

There is no way around this scripture. it plainly states they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. How do you interpret rev. 20.10, 15? I assume you don't change the words of the verse like universalists do or do you?

 

[Jon0388g]

Hey, like I said when I was on topic (lol) there is a danger of taking the phrase 'forever and ever' and not interpretating it correctly. Throughout scripture, the word 'forever' is used with limits - it is only limitless when applied to God. For example, when God destroyed the city of Edom in Isaiah, Scripture says:

"Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever." Isaiah 34:9-10

Like the example with Sodom and Gomorrah also (Jude 7), Edom is not burning today. The 'forever' was used to indicate it would not end until there was nothing left to burn up. The Old Testament has many instances where it uses the term 'forever' but not necassarily with the same connotations we apply to it today: a slave could serve his master "forever" (Ex. 21:6), that the child Samuel was to abide in the tabernacle "forever" (1 Sam. 1:22), and that Jonah thought he would be in the belly of the great fish "forever" (Jonah 2:6).

So we should gather from this that torment 'forever and ever' does not imply eternal punishing, but the punishment is everlasting. We can know that this interpretation is correct not only on the grounds evidenced above, but also to that fact that Scripture does not contradict itself. If we were to be tormented forever and ever, then the Scripture lies when it says only the righteous will have eternal life! Revelation 20:14, 15 even says after this that the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

Thus, it is the death of the wicked which is final and everlasting.

Jon

 

[Charlie V]

This is ridiculous. Firstly, the child has no concept of death.

And we have no concept of eternity. The analogy works.

Secondly, this analogy fails to stand because if we are applying it to what God allowed with the human race, you are forgetting to add on the fact that before the child jumped, God specifically told the child not to jump, because the child would die. (Genesis 2:17).

I am talking about each individual human being -- not one individual (Adam.)

In any case, as through Adam death came to men, so came the justification of life to all mankind through Christ (Romans 5:18)

You are also forgetting to add on to this scenario that the parent already knows that the child will jump, and, like any loving parent, already has a plan devised to save the child from death in place.

That, I haven't forgotten. No universalist has forgotten that.

But this parent, God, is infallible. Thus, His plan, is foolproof. The safety net he uses cannot break, and it cannot be missed.

Please don’t presume to use such analogies if they hold no water,

You don't understand the concept of "analogy," do you?

Analogies are meant as illustrations. They're like parables. They "hold water" in the context in which they're used.

Your comments remind me of a Dilbert cartoon. Dilbert walks into his pointy haired bosses office and says, "We can let our software changes get bogged down in tons of paperwork, or we can soar like eagles and make the changes, saving the company millions." Dilbert thinks to himself, "Please don't get sidetracked by the analogy." The boss says, "Since when do eagles use software?"

Of course you can take any analogy apart and show the difference to "force" it not to work. That misses the point of analogy. Analogies are illustrations, not proofs. Playing with analogies to make them "not work" and saying the analogy "didn't hold water" is just silly, like the boss saying eagles don't use software.

and which also insult our Creator,

The false doctrine of hell is an insult to our Creator.

as you clearly know little about the views I hold or the true nature of our Lord.

And you clearly know little about the views I hold.

However, I do know a great deal about the doctrine of hell and views held regarding it. But you've peaked my curiousity. In what ways do your views differ from the standard Arminian and/or Augustinian views on the subject?

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

Could you please reference where in Scripture this is said.

Here are a just a few:

Mt 18:12,14 What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? Thus it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Lk 2:10 And the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which shall be for all the people."

Lk 15:4-7 What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? And when [Ed., not if] he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing... I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Lk 23:34 Jesus said, "Father forgive them; they know not what they do."

[Ed., This incredible request by Jesus, together with His suffering and death on the cross for the sins of the world, becomes the ultimate picture and the eternal symbol of the heart and intention of God toward lost humanity. Furthermore, this declaration of God's ultimate redemptive purposes was made, eternally speaking, from the beginning of time, by "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world"! (Rev 13:8)]​

Jn 1:29 The next day he [John the Baptist] saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

[Ed., "the sin" is in the singular, indicating the complete removal of the "sin principle", or sin itself with all of its consequences, not just the individual acts of sin.]​

Jn 3:17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him.

Jn 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.

[Ed., This is as clear a statement on the subject as any in scripture, a promise made by Christ Himself!]​

Acts 3;20-21And that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Rom 5:18-20 So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's] there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One, the many will be made righteous. And the Law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more!

[Ed., As J.B. Phillips so succinctly puts it, "Grace is the ruling factor!"]​

Rom 8:19-21 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Rom 11:15 For if their rejection [i.e., the Jew's rejection of Christ] be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved.

Rom 11:32,33For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all. Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

Rom 11;36 For from Him [Christ] and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Rom 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:11 For as it is written, "As I live", says the Lord, "every knee shall bow to me [ie. repentance], and every tongue shall give praise to God". [ie. worship]

I Cor 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.

I Cor 5:4,5 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [See I Peter 4:6!]

I Cor 13:8 Love never fails.

[Ed., It bears repeating: "Love never fails!" God is love. His love can not fail! To lose even one would mean that love failed to find and save that one. To lose millions for eternity, as some believe, would mean that love failed miserably and completely! However, His plan, His purpose, His desire, and His nature has always been and always will be love for His creation!]​