Did God Indirectly Cause Job To Suffer, Be Sick, And Be In Poverty?

[ProAmerican]

In Job 1:1-2:13 one can see the story of how Satan, along with the sons of God, appeared in heaven before God. God, during a conversation with Satan, brings up his servant Job, asking Satan if he has considered him. Satan asks if Job fears God for naught, and says further that God has put a hedge about him, his house, and all that he has on every side. Satan says to God that if He will put forth His hand and smite him, that Job will curse God to His face. God replies to Satan that Job is in his power, but says that he cannot take Job's life. Satan then goes forth from the presence of the Lord and smites all that Job has (lands, possessions, children). Later, Satan is again given permission to personally smite Job with boils.

If someone were to say that they wished they could get out from behind jail bars so that they might harm someone, seeing that the bars were keeping them from attacking and harming that person, opening the jail cell would make one indirectly responsible for that man being harmed by the man who was in the jail cell, would it not?

So, in a similiar way, when God 'opened the jail cell' for Satan to get at Job, He indirectly caused Job to lose all that he had, including his children, and later indirectly caused Job to be smitten with boils. God was the One who initially brought up Job, in fact, asking Satan if he had considered his servant Job. God even knew that Satan was going to ask if Job served God for naught, and everthing else that Satan was going to ask or say concerning Job.

A.) Satan said that if God would smite Job, that Job would curse God to His face. B.) God allowed Satan to get at Job, in the same way that a man opening a jail cell would allow a man who wanted to harm another man to have access to that man. C.) Therefore, just as the man who opened the jail cell is indirectly responsible for that man being harmed by the man who was in the jail cell, so God was indirectly responsible for Job being attacked by Satan.

I imagine that similiar things have happened throughout the pages of history (we are given a glimpse into the dealings of God in the book of Job), and I imagine that similiar things even happen up until now. Job's Poverty (remember Job losing all his possessions?), sickness (remember Job's boils?), Job's loss of children, were all indirectly caused by God. God caused the hedge that He had placed around Job to be removed.


We can see in the Bible (in the case of David) where David said that previously he strayed from God, but when God socked it to him (afflicted him), or allowed David to be afflicted, that afterward David kept His word.

Can God indirectly or directly bless someone? Absolutely. We must remember that God does both sides of the equation. He can directly or indirectly cause blessings, and can directly or indirectly cause sickness, poverty, sufferings and afflictions (as with David). This goes for everyone, whether they are or aren't His children.

 

[ProAmerican]

Bump.

 

[Strong in Him]

God didn't prevent Job's sufferings. Just as he didn't prevent sin, and therefore sickness, to enter the world in the first place, and just as he doesn't always prevent Christians from becoming sick and dying. So if he allows something it must be for a reason. And he can use sickness for his glory.

 

[CrazyforYeshua]

You'll get opinions from both sides, but I happen to believe what you speak is truth. God DID bring up the subject of Job, and He was the one who told satan "go for it, just don't touch his soul, that's mine." So, who is ultimately responsible?
God is.

 

[ProAmerican]

You'll get opinions from both sides, but I happen to believe what you speak is truth. God DID bring up the subject of Job, and He was the one who told satan "go for it, just don't touch his soul, that's mine." So, who is ultimately responsible?
God is.

Good points.

Yes, God did cause the gates of that jail cell to "swing open wide," metaphorically speaking.

Just as that man in a jail cell could not get to the man he wanted to harm without someone opening the cell to let him out, so too, Satan could not get to Job unless God removed His hedge around Job.

 

[CrazyforYeshua]

Exactly. Just as He said about Paul "I will show him what he must suffer for My names' sake".

 

[Trish1947]

We could turn this around and ask ourselves what portion did Job play in bringing about his own suffering. What were the missing hedges for? Satan assumed they were there. But God said look no hedges. What does a hedge consist of? What was Jobs fears, when he said "the greatest thing that I feared, has come upon me."?

 

[Optimax]

God did not cause bad to happen to Job. Scripture says that what Job feared came upon him. The two forces that allow things to happen to man is faith(allows God to do good for us) and fear(allows satan to do bad to us).

God is not "out to get you" He is out to bless you. Satan is the one show steals, kills and destroys. Not God.

Jesus said "I have come that you might have life (not death, sickness, and calimity) and have it(life) abundantly.

Do you think God is confused? Wanting to bless one minute and hurt the next.

Bible says he is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

 

[CrazyforYeshua]

Job didn't say that until here

Job 3:25 For the thing which I fear cometh upon me, And that which I am afraid of cometh unto me.
Job 3:26 I am not at ease, neither am I quiet, neither have I rest; But trouble cometh.

Notice, it is the 3rd chapter, and I would dare say he was talking about his circumstances.
But, let's go back to the first chapter


Job 1:6 Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan also came among them.
Job 1:7 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath, on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah.

Sounds like Gods' idea to me.

 

[OnlyByHisGrace]

My husband and I were talking about this not to long ago. I have never really liked or "gotten" the whole story of Job for this reason. He explained it something like this, only he is much more eloquent than I...

Satan had just come to God bragging more or less that he had been through the whole earth tempting and causing God's people to fall and sin. (Because it says he just came from going to and fro and that is what he does). Everyone had succumbed to temptation. So God asks if he has considered Job. More or less to prove that there is at least one that wouldn't. So the whole thing was not so much a test for Job (well it was, but that may not be the whole jest of the story) but more of a proving to Satan he doesn't control the whole earth. In the end God more than made up for it (so says the Bible, even though I don't think you can replace children, but that is another topic.)


Having said all that, you can't use Job to prove God causes or wills you to suffer or stay sick. Job was before Jesus bore our sickness and became a curse for us. Just thought I'd throw that in.

 

[CrazyforYeshua]

I agree it was before Yeshuas' sacrifice, but the Word also says God never changes, He is the same today, yesterday and forever. His character remains.
Do I think He did it to hurt Job? Not at all, and you might have a point-He was showing Job there is one who is faithful. But, at the same time, God did say what He did.

 

[Trish1947]

Job didn't say that until here

Job 3:25 For the thing which I fear cometh upon me, And that which I am afraid of cometh unto me.
Job 3:26 I am not at ease, neither am I quiet, neither have I rest; But trouble cometh.

Notice, it is the 3rd chapter, and I would dare say he was talking about his circumstances.
But, let's go back to the first chapter


Job 1:6 Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan also came among them.
Job 1:7 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath, on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah.

Sounds like Gods' idea to me.

So since God said that everything that Job had was in Satan's power. Is that the same today as being Christians, and being translated into the kingdom of His dear Son? Was Job by default still under the sin of Adam? Or did Jesus strip all authority and power away from him and came to destroy the works of the devil? Thats why I don't even consider the story of Job after the new covenant with us. Because Jesus brought the kingdom of God everytime he healed a leper, opened blind eyes raised someone from the dead, forgave us sinners by offering Himself for us. When Jesus came, He brought Gods glory with Him.

 

[Strong in Him]

Job didn't say that until here

Job 3:25 For the thing which I fear cometh upon me, And that which I am afraid of cometh unto me.
Job 3:26 I am not at ease, neither am I quiet, neither have I rest; But trouble cometh.

Notice, it is the 3rd chapter, and I would dare say he was talking about his circumstances.
But, let's go back to the first chapter


Job 1:6 Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan also came among them.
Job 1:7 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath, on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah.

Sounds like Gods' idea to me.

Me too. Or at least, it sounds like Satan's initiative, but one which God controlled and permitted. Satan could only work within limits - there is no record of him going off and disobeying what God had said. His whole attitude reads as a challenge to God; does Job fear you for nothing? Have you not put a hedge around him? If Job suffered, he would curse you.
But we read that in spite of all Job went through, he did not sin. God rebuked his friends, and said they would be forgiven when Job made sacrifices for them, and restored Job's health, possessions etc.

 

[Strong in Him]

We could turn this around and ask ourselves what portion did Job play in bringing about his own suffering.

None.

What were the missing hedges for? Satan assumed they were there. But God said look no hedges.

No he didn't - there weren't any missing hedges.

"Does Job fear God for nothing? ... Have you not put a hedge around him. his family and all he has?" (Job 1:9-10)

Satan was accusing God of having put a hedge of protection around Job - Job could praise and fear God because he was protected and safe. If the hedge was removed, Satan said, it would be a different story. The next verse in my Bible says "very well", but whether other versions have this phrase or not, God said to Satan that Job was in his hands, and it was then - and only then - that Job's calamaties began.

If Job had brought about his own suffering because of his fear, or whatever, why the opening verses of the chapter about Satan talking to God and claiming that Job only fears him because he'd never had it so good? Why have that little dialogue at all? Those verses tell me that whatever Satan wants to do to us, he only has limited powers and can do nothing without God's knowledge. He can never sneak in while God's back is turned. Also, why didn't God say to Job "you suffered because your fear let Satan in. You brought it upon yourself for not trusting me"?

 

[CrazyforYeshua]

Because He didn't say it.

 

[willmrcd1]

I love the fact that everyone here sees God's hand in Job's life. When reading the scriptures and meditating on them I believe that God was so proud of Job and therefore He blessed Him. He rewarded him for his faithfulness. Good and proud parents do that for their children, but Satan questioned God again. In a way I'm going to paraprase~Job is only serving you because he is blessed. Take everything away and you see he will curse you. We know the outcome. God's protection was lifted temporarily. I know that God knew the outcome he just had to put Satan and his cohorts in their places.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Definition of "Indirectly" basically means: not direct: as deviating from a direct line or course, not directly aimed at or achieved.

Satan was direct while God observe with permission. This is what God said of His servant, Job. Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and will have nothing to do with evil."

Job suffered first set of trials

Job 2:3 Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and will have nothing to do with evil. And he has maintained his integrity, even though you persuaded me to harm him without cause."

Job suffered another set of trials

From the Book of Job, we see that God is in complete control. Satan had neither the power nor the authority to do anything without the permission of God. It was consistent with God's nature and will for him to have allowed those things to happen to Job.

I have studied Job for many years. Many people have a wrong concept of the Story of Job and didn't understand the theology behind the story. Job's friends acted like God's prophets sent to straighten out Job's life. They claimed to know more than Job did. Not all of their doctrines are false but they used their doctrines wrongly. Job didn't sinned and he was not opposing God but at the same time, Job was trying to understand why his trials were happening.

Timing of Job's sufferings In the beginning of Job, God didn't mentioned about punishing Job but rather praising Job for his faith. The very first verse explains that Job was blameless and a man of complete integrity. Job's faith was very strong and feared (loved) God.

In Chapter 3, most people believed Job sinned because he feared God which is untrue. Chapter 3 through chapter 10 chronicle Job's sorrow and he's really hurting. He's in pain, "O that my grief were thoroughly weighed and my calamity laid in the balances," chapter 6 verse 2. Chapter 10, he says, "My soul is weary of life." And he says in verse 2 of chapter 10, "God, do not condemn me, show me why You're contending with me." We ALL feel the same way, and don't tell me that none of you did not ever felt that way.

 

[Optimax]

I never cease to be amazed at Christians who do not know their Father. Accusing Him of being mean, vindictive, uncaring, evil(causing sickness, death,etc.) towards his children.

When an earthly father commits some of the horrible things that God is accused of doing, the earthly father is sent to prison. If God commits what some accuse him of He should be committed to prison.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I never cease to be amazed at Christians who do not know their Father. Accusing Him of being mean, vindictive, uncaring, evil(causing sickness, death,etc.) towards his children.

I never cease to be amazed at Christians who lack biblical knowledge regarding God's Character. We never said He was being mean, vindictive, uncaring, and evil but those who reply to our posts view us as those who THINK we believe such thing. The Lord has placed us in an environment with a certain supply of the gifts of His grace, and we didn't earn any of them. Everything we have, and everything we are able to obtain, comes as a result of the Grace of God; we have deserved nothing. Christians suffer for many reasons,sometimes through no fault of our own. "You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good" ( Genesis 50:20). God has a purpose including illnesses. His purpose is to manifest the character of our spiritual life to everybody around us and to us as well. James 1:4 states that "Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." Later in James 1:12 states "Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to thoe who love him." God wants us to take joy over any of our circumstances (1 Thessalonians 5:16-18).

God allows and causes things to happen for for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28 is not limited to "all suffering," "all trouble," "all good things," or "all righteousness." No matter what happens to me, it works out for God's purpose. Exodus 4:11 says: "The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD ?" Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 3:14 "I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him."

Throughout the Bible, the following have caused by God as Amos 3:6 says "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?:"

If God commits what some accuse him of He should be committed to prison.

If people think they view that way, why should we judge God? We are the clay and God is the potter. Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will, so that the work of God might be displayed in our life. For God knows how we are formed, He remembers that we are dust, that He can turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay. Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"? I will NOT say that! Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made and we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose. God is able to make all grace abound to us, so that in all things at all times, having all that we need, we will abound in every good work. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

 

[probinson]

........
In Chapter 3, most people believed Job sinned because he feared God which is untrue.
........

Uh, Job said:

25 What I feared has come upon me;
what I dreaded has happened to me.
​

Job clearly was not talking about the fear of God here, which is very different than being "afraid" or "dreading" that something is going to happen.