There's one thing that dosn't seem to be understood by non-christians...

[RichardT]

LET THIS THREAD DIE PLEASE, IT IS ABOUT A YEAR OLD.



Christianity is not only about moral behavior , the whole basis of christianity is about being "born-again", since I don't think I can ever prove to you the born-again phenomena , then we are conversing at a different level of experience , and therefore you could never truely understand the born-again phenomena untill you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code , and to stick by it ( Tell me if any of my assumptions were wrong... ) , and by keeping the moral code , the God force would accept you into "heaven" ( or karma , w/e )..

Tell me if my assumptions are right before I go further into the discussion..

I also want to make myself clear in my assumptions and reasonning .. Also , my reasonning comes from the born-again phenomona, which you have not yet experienced... ( I can't prove the born-again phenomena to you , but I want you to understand that my understanding of christianity revolves around this phenomena) .

 

[monkey88]

umm... what is the one thing we don't understand? the truth of being born again? sorry it just didn't seem too clear.

 

[RichardT]

umm... what is the one thing we don't understand? the truth of being born again? sorry it just didn't seem too clear.

i'm trying to prove that christianity is not about works , but about the "born-again" phenomena...

Being "born-again" in christianity is the belief that once you accept Jesus as your savior , your spirit is now cleansed from all unrighteousness and biblical truth is revealed to you , and you also get a super naturalist feeling ( the born again phenomena ) of complete Joy , Peace , and Truth... If you have any questions about the born again phenomina , please ask them here ...

 

[peepnklown]

If you have any questions about the born again phenomena

I found it odd that you used the word, “phenomena.” You will never understand Amun-Ra’s power unless you believe.

 

[vedickings]

i'm trying to prove that christianity is not about works , but about the "born-again" phenomena...

Being "born-again" in christianity is the belief that once you accept Jesus as your savior , your spirit is now cleansed from all unrighteousness and biblical truth is revealed to you , and you also get a super naturalist feeling ( the born again phenomena ) of complete Joy , Peace , and Truth... If you have any questions about the born again phenomina , please ask them here ...

You can born again without any good work? Hmm... This does not sound right, maybe this is why the world is the way it is, cause no work is needed, from the Christian view.

In Hinduism or the yoga system good work is most important over believeing in God!

 

[RichardT]

You can born again without any good work? Hmm... This does not sound right, maybe this is why the world is the way it is, cause no work is needed, from the Christian view.

In Hinduism or the yoga system good work is most important over believeing in God!

good works come natually after the "born-again" phenomina takes place.. Because after we have that moment of truth (assumption) , we know of the great pains that God suffers whenever we sin , therefore , we repent for our sins and ask for forgivness...

When you get recieve the "born-again" feeling , many have cried because of there pasts sins and felt to the ground and knelt before the Lord ...

edit : is there anything else that is misunderstood , or do you have any other questions , or do you want me to expand on anything else ?

 

[vedickings]

good works come natually after the "born-again" phenomina takes place..

I can kind of understand this.

Because after we have that moment of truth (assumption) , we know of the great pains that God suffers whenever we sin , therefore , we repent for our sins and ask for forgivness...

God does not suffer any pain!

When you get recieve the "born-again" feeling , many have cried because of there pasts sins and felt to the ground and knelt before the Lord ...

So getting born again is a feeling (emotion)?

edit : is there anything else that is misunderstood , or do you have any other questions , or do you want me to expand on anything else ?

I have many qusetions

 

[ravenscape]

As an ex-fundamentalist, I think I get what being born-again is about. I can't speak for others, but the desire to keep a moral code is not that foundational a part of my belief systems. I kept a moral code when I was Christian. I kept a much more *examined* moral code when I was agnostic, because I spent more time thinking about whether my morals made logical sense. Not necessarily a better moral code, but one that I more rigorously checked for consistency.

I still follow a moral code as a Pagan. it's still examined. The specifics of my moral code have not changed much, given how significant my changes in faith have been. Apparently, my moral code isn't defined by my faith. What is defined by my faith? My relationship to the Universe, to my world, to my community, to my family, and to myself. That was true of my born-again faith as well.

 

[RichardT]

God does not suffer any pain!

If we assume that the bible is correct , then God hates sin , and therefore he suffers pain ( well , maybe not in a human sense ) , that we would choose to sin instead of choosing to follow him...

I g2g , ill see you some other time , Ill have to answer your other questions some other days...

 

[Osiris]

so, in christianity one is only saved when they are born-again?
they have to first experience this born-again phenomena?

so, hinduism was true this whole time

when you die with good karma, and are born again, you are getting closer to Brahman.

 

[rowena]

Not all Christians believe that a person has to experience being "born again" in order to be saved, heck not all Christians believe in the "born again" experience to begin with. To say that being born again is the basis of Christianity is to misrepresent the faith.

 

[Eudaimonist]

To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code , and to stick by it ( Tell me if any of my assumptions were wrong... ) ,

Many other religions are about self-realization, or realization of the divine.

Also , my reasonning comes from the born-again phenomona, which you have not yet experienced...

If you have not experienced self-realization, then you might not be able to understand it perfectly either. It works both ways.

 

[rahma]

Not all Christians believe that a person has to experience being "born again" in order to be saved, heck not all Christians believe in the "born again" experience to begin with. To say that being born again is the basis of Christianity is to misrepresent the faith.

To go off of this, I would bet that if we took one or two people from each of the congregational fora and asked them what the whole basis of christianity was, each would give a different answer. Many would say it most certainly is not being born again.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

Christianity is not only about moral behavior , the whole basis of christianity is about being "born-again", since I don't think I can ever prove to you the born-again phenomena , then we are conversing at a different level of experience , and therefore you could never truely understand the born-again phenomena untill you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code , and to stick by it ( Tell me if any of my assumptions were wrong... ) , and by keeping the moral code , the God force would accept you into "heaven" ( or karma , w/e )..

Tell me if my assumptions are right before I go further into the discussion..

I also want to make myself clear in my assumptions and reasonning .. Also , my reasonning comes from the born-again phenomona, which you have not yet experienced... ( I can't prove the born-again phenomena to you , but I want you to understand that my understanding of christianity revolves around this phenomena) .

I believe you that you've experianced something, and that you call it being born again. You do not need to prove to me that you actually feel this way. I don't see any reason for you to lie about it.

I just don't believe that it is what you think it is. I have, in the last year or two, experianced something of the same, and it had nothing to do with Jesus or Christianity. I think that Christianity helped you get to a place that you needed to be, and I'm glad for that, I just don't think that it is Jesus.

 

[tocis]

... you could never truely understand the born-again phenomena untill you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

In other words: "You won't believe unless you first believe". Now guess why I'm not exactly impressed.

To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code , and to stick by it ( Tell me if any of my assumptions were wrong... ) , and by keeping the moral code , the God force would accept you into "heaven" ( or karma , w/e )...

Told you now. Awaiting your next statement.

 

[PureX]

Christianity is not only about moral behavior , the whole basis of christianity is about being "born-again", since I don't think I can ever prove to you the born-again phenomena , then we are conversing at a different level of experience , and therefore you could never truly understand the born-again phenomena until you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

This is just your own religious bias, speaking. I have been "born again" by any definition of that term, and it had very little to do with religious Christianity. I was a hopeless alcoholic, completely trapped in the deadly insanity of addiction, yet I am no longer. Everything about me has been changed. One could even say it was miraculous. Yet Christianity had almost nothing to do with it, except that some of the principals that the Christian religion uses to accomplish such a holistic change in a person are common to 12 step programs and to other religions seeking the same positive personal changes.

Believe it or not, God is bigger than the religious dogmas and images we use to define and describe God. God can "heal" people outside of our religious paradigms, and does so every day.

To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code , and to stick by it ( Tell me if any of my assumptions were wrong... ) , and by keeping the moral code , the God force would accept you into "heaven" ( or karma , w/e )..

Tell me if my assumptions are right before I go further into the discussion..

Actually, most religions are about transcending the self, just as Christianity is. Obeying moral codes is more a practice of "religious" factions that want social power and control, rather than transcendence, I would say.

I also want to make myself clear in my assumptions and reasoning .. Also , my reasoning comes from the born-again phenomena, which you have not yet experienced... ( I can't prove the born-again phenomena to you , but I want you to understand that my understanding of christianity revolves around this phenomena) .

I'm sorry, but only a fool would judge other people by experiences that he does not believe they've ever had. That's like knowingly using the features of an orange to pass judgement on apples.

I agree that not everyone has experienced being "born again". But then not everyone needs to, either. Perhaps they learned to live their lives as they were meant to live them in the first place, and did not need to be broken, and rebuilt. And one could say the same about religions that focus on transcending the self - perhaps not everyone needs to transcend the self. In fact, it could be that we only need to learn to be more fully ourselves. It could be that our desire to "transcend ourselves" is exactly what gets us into so much trouble.

 

[shaivealist]

First of all, let me apologize that I keep disappearing from this forum. I don't have access to the internet all the time so sometimes I have to go a few days without using it at all.

Christianity is not only about moral behavior , the whole basis of christianity is about being "born-again", since I don't think I can ever prove to you the born-again phenomena , then we are conversing at a different level of experience , and therefore you could never truely understand the born-again phenomena untill you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

Actually, you'd be surprised at the similarities between the path of bhakti yoga in Hinduism and the born-again phenomenon you describe. http://www.dlshq.org/teachings/bhaktiyoga.htm Here is a quote from this site:

Mark how love develops. First arises faith. Then follows attraction and after that adoration. Adoration leads to suppression of mundane desires. The result is single-mindedness and satisfaction. Then grow attachment and supreme love towards God.

Bhakti, however, is not a passive path. It requires an intense amount of devotion and love for God. Since a bhakta literally thinks, sees, and breathes only the will of God, he is said to be incapable of sin. Many bhaktas have also written that men can only be saved by the grace of God, and that placing complete and utter faith in God's ability to save us is the only way to be "saved."

Even though I don't really agree with all of their theology, take a look at the Hare Krishnas (ISKCON). They are probably the closest thing to born-again Christians outside of Christianity itself. The major difference I see between bhaktas and born-again Christians is that bhaktas almost always give up all their possessions, living either as an ascetic or a preacher of the glory of God. Ironically, isn't this the same path that Jesus preached to those who would follow Him?

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste Richard,

thank you for the post.

Christianity is not only about moral behavior , the whole basis of christianity is about being "born-again",

i would heartily suggest that you read what James, Jesus' brother, has to say on this matter. it may surprise you.

since I don't think I can ever prove to you the born-again phenomena , then we are conversing at a different level of experience , and therefore you could never truely understand the born-again phenomena untill you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

this is true of all experiential states. you could not describe what it is like to eat an orange to a being that has never tasted one.

To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code , and to stick by it ( Tell me if any of my assumptions were wrong... ) , and by keeping the moral code , the God force would accept you into "heaven" ( or karma , w/e )..

this is not a correct cognition of the Buddha Dharma. Buddha Dharma teachings are all designed to inclucate an experience, the words we use are mainly to orient the mind in the correct manner, yet, it is the experience of Awakening which we a going on about and, for the most part, what the entire point of the practice is.

it is, of course, quite correct that the Buddha Dharma takes the view that a proper understanding, from a philosophical point of view, is condusive to having the experience of Awakening. however, it is not an absolute requirement that this be so.

Tell me if my assumptions are right before I go further into the discussion..

just a bit incorrect in regards to my particular tradition

I also want to make myself clear in my assumptions and reasonning .. Also , my reasonning comes from the born-again phenomona, which you have not yet experienced... ( I can't prove the born-again phenomena to you , but I want you to understand that my understanding of christianity revolves around this phenomena) .

you know... there are, in fact, some beings who are no longer Christian that claim to have had said "born again" experience, yes?

metta,

~v

 

[Gardenia]

You will never understand Amun-Ra’s power unless you believe.

Not all other religions are about a moral code to keep.. I am the religion I am because it makes me feel closer to God than any other religion ive been.
Im wondering, what do you think of people who have tried to accept Jesus with all their heart and soul, but never felt anything?

 

[chokmah]

Christianity is not only about moral behavior , the whole basis of christianity is about being "born-again", since I don't think I can ever prove to you the born-again phenomena , then we are conversing at a different level of experience , and therefore you could never truely understand the born-again phenomena untill you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code , and to stick by it ( Tell me if any of my assumptions were wrong... ) , and by keeping the moral code , the God force would accept you into "heaven" ( or karma , w/e )..

Tell me if my assumptions are right before I go further into the discussion..

I also want to make myself clear in my assumptions and reasonning .. Also , my reasonning comes from the born-again phenomona, which you have not yet experienced... ( I can't prove the born-again phenomena to you , but I want you to understand that my understanding of christianity revolves around this phenomena) .

Richard:


Are you aware that "born-again" has a precedence in Judaic thought? It's not a Christian ideal.

Therefore, for you to talk about a lack of understanding regarding "born-again" is rather ironic since you have no idea what the original idea stood for.