Originally Posted by Ben johnson
For this post I felt it necessary to quote the first portion of your original post I'm responding to along with the particular point I'm responding to because you seem a bit perturbed with me because I am contending that you preach a works-based salvation.
My contention isn't that you preach a works-based salvation to get saved but that you preach a works-based salvation to stay saved.
Your 1st point with Ephesians 2:4 ( "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy..." ) to support your statement that Jesus died only because he loved us really is only telling us how we can get to a point to where we can initially be saved. Since you believe that we have to maintain a "responsible grace" more needs to be said about this.
It's interesting to me because you have to stop at vs 4 (which is only half a sentence) or your entire argument for "responsible grace" comes crumbling to the ground. Verse 5 clearly states it is Jesus who made us alive (which indicates it was not by our own will - hence supporting the doctrine of predestination) and verses 6-9 clearly show that our faith "is not of ourselves."
Let's lay out the whole text:
Ephesians 2:4-10
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
So it is quite clear that one tiny portion of this text speaks of God's love in saving us BUT also that the ENTIRE text speaks of how we come to grace and faith - and its not from within. If you were not pushing a works-based doctrine then you would have included the entire text and not just half a sentence to open a dissertation of 15 points on "responsible grace" which is nothing more than working to maintain salvation. Verse 10 talks of us doing good works - not to maintain salvation - but because and why we are saved.
Quote:
You're clearly contending that a man's works form the basis for his remaining saved.
Do you still not see a problem with that?
Look, if you're going to participate in these discussions, you gotta stop doing that. In Post 298 I very clearly demonstrated I am NOT pushing ANY kind of "works salvation". I don't blame you for ignoring the post; not only does it fully answer the charge of "works salvation" (demonstrating Responsible Grace is NOTHING of works), it fully ruins "predestination". But here is the list again: You're clearly contending that a man's works form the basis for his remaining saved.
Do you still not see a problem with that?
1. Salvation is a free gift of grace, paid for by Jesus' loving sacrifice.
1b. Jesus died ONLY because He loved us, completely. Eph2:4
1b. Jesus died ONLY because He loved us, completely. Eph2:4
For this post I felt it necessary to quote the first portion of your original post I'm responding to along with the particular point I'm responding to because you seem a bit perturbed with me because I am contending that you preach a works-based salvation.
My contention isn't that you preach a works-based salvation to get saved but that you preach a works-based salvation to stay saved.
Your 1st point with Ephesians 2:4 ( "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy..." ) to support your statement that Jesus died only because he loved us really is only telling us how we can get to a point to where we can initially be saved. Since you believe that we have to maintain a "responsible grace" more needs to be said about this.
It's interesting to me because you have to stop at vs 4 (which is only half a sentence) or your entire argument for "responsible grace" comes crumbling to the ground. Verse 5 clearly states it is Jesus who made us alive (which indicates it was not by our own will - hence supporting the doctrine of predestination) and verses 6-9 clearly show that our faith "is not of ourselves."
Let's lay out the whole text:
Ephesians 2:4-10
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
So it is quite clear that one tiny portion of this text speaks of God's love in saving us BUT also that the ENTIRE text speaks of how we come to grace and faith - and its not from within. If you were not pushing a works-based doctrine then you would have included the entire text and not just half a sentence to open a dissertation of 15 points on "responsible grace" which is nothing more than working to maintain salvation. Verse 10 talks of us doing good works - not to maintain salvation - but because and why we are saved.
