Originally Posted by Ben johnson
This point only proves the hypocracy or self-delusion of your position. You state that you do not preach a works-based salvation but then you make a statement like this that even includes the word "conditions." Are you kidding me? Are you going to sit behind your computer and with a straight face try and tell us you don't preach works and in the same breath say our reconcilliation comes with "conditions." Conditions = Works, bottom line.
In Colassions 1:21-23 you are using a verse that is clearly talking about remaining in the gospel of grace to promote works. Paul isn't referring to lifestyle, merit, or conditional grace in verse 23. He is talking about grace alone. It is yet another admonishment verse for Christians to check to see that they are saved. If we stop believing in the hope of the gospel - that is in eternal life through grace - and start believing in our own works then it is a sign that we have a problem.
But let's not end this discsussion on Colassions 1 at just verses 21-23 since the explanation I gave above is worthy of scriptural support. In vs 10 Paul tells us to live our lives worthy of the Lord and to please him in every way. It is not so that we can live to a "responsible grace" system in order to keep our salvation. We are already saved - and hence the Lord deserves our very best - we should live our lives worthy of Him. Vs. 12 states that he has already "qualified" us to share in the inheritence of the saints and vs 13 states that He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness - reasons He deserves our best. They are not reasons or ways we can loose salvation.
Again - verse 23 is an admonishment to check to see that our faith is real. Paul even says in vs 28 that he is admonishming the people so that he can present them to Christ perfect and blameless.
In 2 Peter 3:17 Peter is not talking about a condition of responsible grace. Back in verses 14-16 he references Paul's letters and how deceivers can twist them to lead others astray. Verse 17 starts out by saying "therefore" hence referencing the point in vs 14-16. He is telling his readers to be on their guard of these deceivers lest they be carried away and fall from their SECURE position. Given the fact the word "secure" is used right in the text it yet again is another admonishment to be on guard that they are really saved. Believers secure in their position cannot be carried away, my friend. Unbelievers who are on the fence - can be.
Hebrews 3:14 is not talking of a "condition" held within responsible grace.
Let's lay this one out: We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
My friend, this verse is so clearly pointing to authentic faith I don't know how more obvious it could be. There is nothing there calling for a believer to live "responsibly" in order to maintain his or her salvation. The verse is talking about "confidence" - not responsibility. It is a true faith that holds out to the end in confidence.
See verse 12 in the same chapter - it totally backs up my point. It specifically says "see to it that none of you has an ubelieving heart." Keep reading - it is only the "unbelieving" (hence unsaved) heart that turns away from God. Again the admonishment is clear - see to it that you do not have an "unbelieving heart." See to it that you are really saved.
15. Our very reconciliation conditions on our "continuing in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and NOT being moved away from (Jesus) the Hope of the Gospel." Col1:21-23 is very clear. Equal "if" verses are 2Pet3:17, and Heb3:6, and Heb3:14. They all say the same.
In Colassions 1:21-23 you are using a verse that is clearly talking about remaining in the gospel of grace to promote works. Paul isn't referring to lifestyle, merit, or conditional grace in verse 23. He is talking about grace alone. It is yet another admonishment verse for Christians to check to see that they are saved. If we stop believing in the hope of the gospel - that is in eternal life through grace - and start believing in our own works then it is a sign that we have a problem.
But let's not end this discsussion on Colassions 1 at just verses 21-23 since the explanation I gave above is worthy of scriptural support. In vs 10 Paul tells us to live our lives worthy of the Lord and to please him in every way. It is not so that we can live to a "responsible grace" system in order to keep our salvation. We are already saved - and hence the Lord deserves our very best - we should live our lives worthy of Him. Vs. 12 states that he has already "qualified" us to share in the inheritence of the saints and vs 13 states that He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness - reasons He deserves our best. They are not reasons or ways we can loose salvation.
Again - verse 23 is an admonishment to check to see that our faith is real. Paul even says in vs 28 that he is admonishming the people so that he can present them to Christ perfect and blameless.
In 2 Peter 3:17 Peter is not talking about a condition of responsible grace. Back in verses 14-16 he references Paul's letters and how deceivers can twist them to lead others astray. Verse 17 starts out by saying "therefore" hence referencing the point in vs 14-16. He is telling his readers to be on their guard of these deceivers lest they be carried away and fall from their SECURE position. Given the fact the word "secure" is used right in the text it yet again is another admonishment to be on guard that they are really saved. Believers secure in their position cannot be carried away, my friend. Unbelievers who are on the fence - can be.
Hebrews 3:14 is not talking of a "condition" held within responsible grace.
Let's lay this one out: We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
My friend, this verse is so clearly pointing to authentic faith I don't know how more obvious it could be. There is nothing there calling for a believer to live "responsibly" in order to maintain his or her salvation. The verse is talking about "confidence" - not responsibility. It is a true faith that holds out to the end in confidence.
See verse 12 in the same chapter - it totally backs up my point. It specifically says "see to it that none of you has an ubelieving heart." Keep reading - it is only the "unbelieving" (hence unsaved) heart that turns away from God. Again the admonishment is clear - see to it that you do not have an "unbelieving heart." See to it that you are really saved.
