Originally Posted by Ben johnson
This point clearly represents a works-based salvation. Continuing in steadfast faith is indeed a work. What does this continuing in steadfast faith mean? How does one maintain it? If it is simply through belief and not additionally works then you are wrong in your assumption that one can fall through unbelief.
As has been clearly pointed out to you again and again - unbelief is a condition that a believer does not return to once he is saved.
Your reference to Romans 11:21-23 does not support your position primarily because Paul is referring to people groups - NOT individuals. It's real convenient to pick and pull a couple of verses out of an entire chapter to support an erroneous view of responsible grace but they simply don't apply and here is why:
If you would look to verse one in chapter 11 you would see that Paul is talking about God's people the Israelites. In verse 2 Paul points out that clearly God DID NOT reject his people! Not the ones he FOREKNEW! Go on to read and you see that clearly God reserved for himself from this group of people - faithful people. It is made clear in verses 4 and 5.
By time we get down to verses 22-23 it is clear that Paul is referring to the unbelievers within both people groups. NOT believers who are now unbelievers. It was the unbelieving Jews who rejected Jesus - NOT believing Jews.
Verse 20 clearly states that it was UNBELIEVING branches that were broken off so that Gentiles could be grafted in - NOT Unbelieving branches who were once believing.
Before you get to verses 22-23 you need to read verses 5 and 6 which clearly state there was a remnent of Jews which were chosen by grace and not by works. If they were chosen - then it is through this choice that they did not bend the knee to Baal or kill the prophets - and as verse 5 clarifies that there is still a remnant. The only conclusion then is that it is through this choice that they could persist in belief.
11. It is arrogant to think we can NOT fall from salvation; we stand BY faith (belief!), those who were cut off, were cut off because of UNBELIEF; if we do not continue in steadfast faith we WILL be cut off --- and those who FELL, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be restored. Rom11:21-23
This point clearly represents a works-based salvation. Continuing in steadfast faith is indeed a work. What does this continuing in steadfast faith mean? How does one maintain it? If it is simply through belief and not additionally works then you are wrong in your assumption that one can fall through unbelief.
As has been clearly pointed out to you again and again - unbelief is a condition that a believer does not return to once he is saved.
Your reference to Romans 11:21-23 does not support your position primarily because Paul is referring to people groups - NOT individuals. It's real convenient to pick and pull a couple of verses out of an entire chapter to support an erroneous view of responsible grace but they simply don't apply and here is why:
If you would look to verse one in chapter 11 you would see that Paul is talking about God's people the Israelites. In verse 2 Paul points out that clearly God DID NOT reject his people! Not the ones he FOREKNEW! Go on to read and you see that clearly God reserved for himself from this group of people - faithful people. It is made clear in verses 4 and 5.
By time we get down to verses 22-23 it is clear that Paul is referring to the unbelievers within both people groups. NOT believers who are now unbelievers. It was the unbelieving Jews who rejected Jesus - NOT believing Jews.
Verse 20 clearly states that it was UNBELIEVING branches that were broken off so that Gentiles could be grafted in - NOT Unbelieving branches who were once believing.
Before you get to verses 22-23 you need to read verses 5 and 6 which clearly state there was a remnent of Jews which were chosen by grace and not by works. If they were chosen - then it is through this choice that they did not bend the knee to Baal or kill the prophets - and as verse 5 clarifies that there is still a remnant. The only conclusion then is that it is through this choice that they could persist in belief.
