*Romans 9:4 / *Rom. 9:4 -
This does not mean that the New Covenant applies only to genetic Israelite Christians. For Gentile Christians are also saved under the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15).
(See also the "Tribes" section of Romans 11:17 below)
Also, Romans 9:4 does not mean that the New Covenant applies to all genetic Israelites. For not all of them are elect.
(See Romans 9:3 above)
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*Romans 9:8 / *Rom. 9:8 -
(See Romans 9:3 above)
(Re: Is genetic Israel nonelect?)
In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", the apostle Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26) and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).
(See also Romans 11:28 below)
~
Romans 9:8 is not contradicting that some Jews are elect (Acts 22:3, Romans 11:1,25-32) or that elect Jews remain members of Israel (Romans 11:1,25-32) or that Gentile Christians are grafted into Israel so that they can partake of the salvation offered by God to Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16) through the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).
~
(Re: What verse speaks of "spiritual Israel"?)
Note that just as the idea of the Trinity does not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the Trinity" for it to be taught by the Bible (e.g. John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4), so the idea of spiritual Israel does not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "spiritual Israel" for it to be taught by the Bible (Romans 9:6-24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16, John 11:52, Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13, Romans 4:16-17, Galatians 4:28, Ephesians 3:6, Romans 15:27).
--
*Romans 9:9 / *Rom. 9:9 -
Here the "word of promise" is quoted from Genesis 18:10.
--
*Romans 9:11-24 / *Rom. 9:11 -
(*Election)
The elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), and even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), to become initially saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).
Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12). And so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people cannot comprehend the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18), because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can comprehend it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).
Nonelect people can never believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42). For the ability to believe in Jesus and His Gospel comes only to elect individuals (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Holy Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of non-Christians so that on their own they cannot repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).
~
(Re: Then why bother preaching the Gospel to non-Christians?)
See Romans 10:14 below.
~
(Re: Does predestination require once-saved-always saved, and that there is no free will?)
No, for predestination/election applies only to initial salvation.
(See the first section of Romans 9:11 above. Also, see the "double-blind man analogy" of Ephesians 2:8 below)
~
(*Vessels of wrath) / (*Double predestination)
God does not love everyone, for He hates nonelect individuals (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens nonelect individuals in their sinfulness instead of showing them His mercy (Romans 9:18), because He created them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them, or anyone else, to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All individuals will justly be held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of individuals.
God created nonelect individuals to be vessels of His wrath instead of vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect individuals to be vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).
God wants these aspects of His character to be known both to humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath will not be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels, and all non-Christians of all times, are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and Christians and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the New Earth (as in a new surface for the earth) to witness the suffering of non-Christians in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of His wrath.
(See also section 9 of Matthew 25:41 above)
~
(Re: Does God have an ego, wanting to show himself off?)
God does not have an ego in the sense of a sinful pride in Himself, because He is wholly without sin (1 John 1:5). But God certainly does have an ego, which simply means an "I" (Exodus 3:14), in the sense of Him wanting to be known for who He is, and all that He is (Romans 9:22-23; 1 John 4:8b, Hebrews 12:29). He alone is worthy to show Himself off (Deuteronomy 32:39-43).
~
(Re: Is justice the only thing that matters? Is it to be given a bigger scope of expression than love?)
No, for elect individuals do not get from God what they justly deserve for their sin. They get mercy instead (Romans 6:23) because of God's love for them (Romans 5:8). What matters is both God's justice/holiness/wrath/hatred for sin on the one hand (Hebrews 12:29, Romans 2:5) and His love/mercy on the other (1 John 4:8b), both of which He is able to express eternally through elect and nonelect individuals (Romans 9:11-24). Also, the eternal expression of God's justice will not have a bigger scope than His love, insofar as the former will be limited to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46), which could be in only one circumscribed area just outside one wall of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-8), as in a new surface for the earth. But the eternal expression of God's love will be in the entire city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:10 to 22:14), which is a gigantic, magnificently beautiful cube 1,500 miles on a side (Revelation 21:16).
~
(Re: Is God evil if he does double predestination with an eternal hell?)
No, see "as mere humans" under Matthew 25:41 above.
~
(Re: Is double predestination with an eternal hell just a wrong idea of *Calvinism?)
No, it is not from Calvinism, but the Bible (Romans 9:21-23, Matthew 25:41,46).
~
(Re: Then is the idea of divine election just a wrong idea of Calvinism?)
No, the doctrine of "the elect", which means "the chosen", is taught by the Bible (Mark 13:20, Luke 18:7, Romans 8:33, Romans 9:11, Romans 11:5, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 5:13; 2 Peter 1:10; 2 John 1:1,13).
(See also 1 Corinthians 1:12 below)
~
(Re: Cannot someone who espouses Calvinism be a non-Christian?)
Note that what has been said above is from the Bible, not Calvinism. Also, a Christian is anyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Can you give some examples of individuals whom you would call espousers of Calvinism who believe the Biblical teachings of election and double predestination, but who do not believe the Biblical teachings that Jesus is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God, and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day?
~
(Re: Can someone not believe in election and still be a Christian?)
If we define Christians as true disciples (students) of Jesus Christ (Acts 11:26b), then Christians must believe everything which is taught in Jesus' Word. For Jesus said: "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31b). And Jesus' Word the Holy Bible teaches election (Mark 13:20, Luke 18:7, Romans 8:33, Romans 9:11, Romans 11:5, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 5:13; 2 Peter 1:10; 2 John 1:1,13). Christians must not be ashamed of Jesus' Word regarding election (or regarding anything else) (Mark 8:38). Christians must both believe and preach Jesus' sound doctrine of election and all of the other sound doctrine of His Word (2 Timothy 4:2-4).
~
(Re: Do believers in double predestination believe it because they believe that they are elect?)
Any believer in the Gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he or she is elect. For only elect individuals become believers in the Gospel (Acts 13:48b).
~
(Re: Is it a problem that nobody knows by what *criteria the elect are chosen?)
While the Bible does not say by what criteria God determined which individuals to create as elect vessels of His mercy and which individuals to create as nonelect vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:21-23), God's criteria were not based on any differences between individual people (Romans 3:9-12); just as, for example, King David's criteria for determining which Moabites to kill and which to keep alive were not based on any differences between the individual people (2 Samuel 8:2); and just as a potter's criteria for determining which part of a lump of clay to make a vessel unto honor and which part of that same lump of clay to make another vessel unto dishonor are not based on any differences between the two parts of that same lump of clay (Romans 9:21).
Also, every Christian can know that he or she is elect (chosen) because Christian faith comes only to elect individuals (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2). Nonelect individuals can never believe in Jesus Christ, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), not because they are any worse than elect individuals (Romans 3:9-12), but simply because God did not choose to show them His mercy (Romans 9:15-22). Elect individuals are shown God's mercy and grace not based on any prior good works on their part (Titus 3:5, Ephesians 2:8-9), but because God chose (elected) them before they had done anything at all (Romans 9:11-24), and even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13).
~
(Re: Are elect individuals chosen unconditionally, yet still by God's foreknowledge of their perseverance?)
No, for if God elects individuals unconditionally, then even from a position of omniscience where He knows who will persevere to the end, He could not elect only those whom He knows will persevere to the end, for that would make His election of individuals conditional on their persevering to the end, instead of unconditional on whether or not they will do that, which is in fact the case. For saved, elect individuals can ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).
(See the "NOSAS" section of Hebrews 3:6 below. Also, see the "perseverance" section of Philippians 2:13 below)
~
(Re: Does election determine salvation?)
Yes, election (God's choosing) does determine salvation (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), but only initial salvation (Acts 13:48b), not ultimate salvation. For ultimate salvation will depend on the continued obedience of Christians subsequent to their initial salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9).
(See Ephesians 2:8 and Hebrews 10:26 below)
~
(Re: Are elect individuals only those who are already saved, for otherwise election would make getting saved pointless because elect individuals cannot become nonelect?)
No, for election is different than salvation. Elect individuals are elected (chosen) by God before they get saved (Romans 11:28, Acts 13:48b, Ephesians 1:4, Romans 9:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:10). During their lifetime, elect individuals are eventually granted God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) because they are elect (Acts 13:48b). Also, while elect individuals cannot become nonelect, after they become Christians they need to be careful not to wrongly employ their free will in such a way that they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30, Hebrews 6:4-8).
(See, for example, Hebrews 6:4 below)
~
(Re: Are only non-sinners the elect, and sinners the nonelect?)
No, for elect individuals (the chosen) were elected/loved and nonelect individuals were nonelected/hated by God before they were created or had committed any sin (Ephesians 1:4, Romans 9:11-13; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). And elect individuals remain elect even after they commit sin and before they become Christians (Romans 11:28, Acts 13:48b). And they remain elect even if they commit a sin after they become Christians. If they do that, then they can repent from it, confess it to God, and ask Him for forgiveness for it (1 John 1:9). And they will remain elect even if they continue in a sin without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29). For election is different than salvation, just as it is different than not sinning. It is simply God's having chosen individuals to become Christians at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b, Romans 9:11-24).
~
(Re: Is there even such a thing as "initial salvation"?)
Yes, see the "Initial salvation" section of Ephesians 2:8 below.
~
(Re: Is only the Church as a whole the elect?)
No, for election is on an individual basis (Romans 9:11-24). That is why there are elect individuals who are not yet part of the Church (Romans 11:28). People eventually become part of the Church (that is, become Christians) only because they were already elect (Acts 13:48b).
~
(Re: Is only Jesus the elect?)
No, for there are elect individuals besides Jesus Christ (e.g. Matthew 24:30-31, Luke 18:7, Colossians 3:12). They are those who during their lifetime can eventually hear His Word, believe in Him, and follow Him, because they are His elect sheep, while nonelect individuals can never believe in Him, because they are not His sheep (John 10:26-27, John 8:42-47). Elect individuals are the good seed sown by Jesus, while nonelect individuals are the tares sown by the devil (Matthew 13:37-43, John 8:42-47).
~
(Re: Does Romans 9:11-24 even refer to the idea of salvation?)
Yes, for it refers to God's mercy (Romans 9:15-16) toward elect individuals "unto glory" (Romans 9:23), which includes the glory of eternal life (Romans 8:17-25, Romans 2:6-7). And it refers to God's lack of mercy, and His wrath, toward nonelect individuals "to destruction" (Romans 9:22), meaning that wrath which is opposed to salvation (Romans 2:5-8, Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9), the wrathful destruction (but not annihilation) which is eternal (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15, Mark 9:45b-46).
--
*Romans 9:12 / *Rom. 9:12 -
Esau served Jacob, de jure, as soon as he sold his birthright to Jacob (Genesis 25:33).
Later, Jacob acted like a servant before Esau only one time (Genesis 32:3-5) out of fear for his life (Genesis 27:42b).
But when Jacob realized that Esau no longer wanted to kill him (Genesis 33:4), he in no way served Esau, but even lied to him and completely avoided him (Genesis 33:14-20).
--
*Romans 9:13 / *Rom. 9:13 -
This employs God's hatred for Esau (Malachi 1:3) as a type for God's hatred for nonelect individuals. And Romans 9:13 employs God's love for Jacob (Malachi 1:2b) as a type for God's love for elect individuals (Romans 9:11-13).
~
(Re: Is it referring to nations, not individuals, like in Genesis 25:23, which is quoted in Romans 9:12?)
No, Romans 9:12-13 employs the difference between Jacob and Esau (Genesis 25:23-26, Malachi 1:2b-3) only as a type, not to represent the difference between the literal, genetic nations of Israel (Jacob: Genesis 32:28) and Edom (Esau: Genesis 36:43b), but to represent the difference between, on the one hand, all elect individuals from all nations (Romans 9:6-13, Galatians 3:28-29, Galatians 4:28), both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24), and, on the other hand, all nonelect individuals from all nations, both some Jews and some Gentiles, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-18, Exodus 9:12,16). Just as the individual babies in Romans 9:11-13 were either elected/loved or nonelected/hated by God before they were born, so all of the elect and nonelect individuals whom they represent were either elected/loved or nonelected/hated by God as individuals, not only before they were born, but even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13).
~
(Re: Does Romans 9:13 really mean that God hates some individuals? In the context of election, is the terminology of election more suitable here: "Jacob I elected, but Esau I didn't"?)
No, for nothing is more suitable than what God Himself actually says. And what He says in Romans 9:13 and Malachi 1:2b-3 is not overridden by the concept of election in Romans 9:11, but is in addition to it, showing that God loves elect individuals and hates nonelect individuals.
~
(Re: Can "hated" in Romans 9:13 simply mean "loved less", like in Genesis 29:31?)
No, it means hated, unto destruction (Malachi 1:3).
~
(Re: Does God have no hatred, just wrath?)
God has both hatred (Romans 9:13, Malachi 1:3) and wrath (Romans 9:22, Revelation 14:10-11) toward nonelect individuals (Romans 9:11-13).
~
(Re: Since God is the Creator of both body and soul, is neither evil, and does God hate neither?)
God hates nonelect individuals themselves (Romans 9:11-13), and they consist of both body and soul. So in hating nonelect individuals themselves, God hates both their bodies and souls, which have both become evil because of sin (Mark 7:21, Matthew 6:23, Romans 7:18, Romans 5:19a, Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10). That is why God will destroy (but not annihilate) both their bodies and souls in hell (Matthew 10:28, Mark 9:45-46, Revelation 14:10-11).
~
(Re: Does God hate nothing which He has made?)
God hates nonelect individuals (Romans 9:11-13). And He made them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:21-23, Proverbs 16:4).
(See also the "Vessels of wrath" section above)
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Next entry / Prior / Table of Contents
Dec 12, 2018
This does not mean that the New Covenant applies only to genetic Israelite Christians. For Gentile Christians are also saved under the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15).
(See also the "Tribes" section of Romans 11:17 below)
Also, Romans 9:4 does not mean that the New Covenant applies to all genetic Israelites. For not all of them are elect.
(See Romans 9:3 above)
--
*Romans 9:8 / *Rom. 9:8 -
(See Romans 9:3 above)
(Re: Is genetic Israel nonelect?)
In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", the apostle Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26) and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).
(See also Romans 11:28 below)
~
Romans 9:8 is not contradicting that some Jews are elect (Acts 22:3, Romans 11:1,25-32) or that elect Jews remain members of Israel (Romans 11:1,25-32) or that Gentile Christians are grafted into Israel so that they can partake of the salvation offered by God to Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16) through the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).
~
(Re: What verse speaks of "spiritual Israel"?)
Note that just as the idea of the Trinity does not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the Trinity" for it to be taught by the Bible (e.g. John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4), so the idea of spiritual Israel does not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "spiritual Israel" for it to be taught by the Bible (Romans 9:6-24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16, John 11:52, Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13, Romans 4:16-17, Galatians 4:28, Ephesians 3:6, Romans 15:27).
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*Romans 9:9 / *Rom. 9:9 -
Here the "word of promise" is quoted from Genesis 18:10.
--
*Romans 9:11-24 / *Rom. 9:11 -
(*Election)
The elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), and even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), to become initially saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).
Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12). And so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people cannot comprehend the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18), because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can comprehend it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).
Nonelect people can never believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42). For the ability to believe in Jesus and His Gospel comes only to elect individuals (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Holy Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of non-Christians so that on their own they cannot repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).
~
(Re: Then why bother preaching the Gospel to non-Christians?)
See Romans 10:14 below.
~
(Re: Does predestination require once-saved-always saved, and that there is no free will?)
No, for predestination/election applies only to initial salvation.
(See the first section of Romans 9:11 above. Also, see the "double-blind man analogy" of Ephesians 2:8 below)
~
(*Vessels of wrath) / (*Double predestination)
God does not love everyone, for He hates nonelect individuals (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens nonelect individuals in their sinfulness instead of showing them His mercy (Romans 9:18), because He created them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them, or anyone else, to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All individuals will justly be held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of individuals.
God created nonelect individuals to be vessels of His wrath instead of vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect individuals to be vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).
God wants these aspects of His character to be known both to humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath will not be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels, and all non-Christians of all times, are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and Christians and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the New Earth (as in a new surface for the earth) to witness the suffering of non-Christians in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of His wrath.
(See also section 9 of Matthew 25:41 above)
~
(Re: Does God have an ego, wanting to show himself off?)
God does not have an ego in the sense of a sinful pride in Himself, because He is wholly without sin (1 John 1:5). But God certainly does have an ego, which simply means an "I" (Exodus 3:14), in the sense of Him wanting to be known for who He is, and all that He is (Romans 9:22-23; 1 John 4:8b, Hebrews 12:29). He alone is worthy to show Himself off (Deuteronomy 32:39-43).
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(Re: Is justice the only thing that matters? Is it to be given a bigger scope of expression than love?)
No, for elect individuals do not get from God what they justly deserve for their sin. They get mercy instead (Romans 6:23) because of God's love for them (Romans 5:8). What matters is both God's justice/holiness/wrath/hatred for sin on the one hand (Hebrews 12:29, Romans 2:5) and His love/mercy on the other (1 John 4:8b), both of which He is able to express eternally through elect and nonelect individuals (Romans 9:11-24). Also, the eternal expression of God's justice will not have a bigger scope than His love, insofar as the former will be limited to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46), which could be in only one circumscribed area just outside one wall of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-8), as in a new surface for the earth. But the eternal expression of God's love will be in the entire city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:10 to 22:14), which is a gigantic, magnificently beautiful cube 1,500 miles on a side (Revelation 21:16).
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(Re: Is God evil if he does double predestination with an eternal hell?)
No, see "as mere humans" under Matthew 25:41 above.
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(Re: Is double predestination with an eternal hell just a wrong idea of *Calvinism?)
No, it is not from Calvinism, but the Bible (Romans 9:21-23, Matthew 25:41,46).
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(Re: Then is the idea of divine election just a wrong idea of Calvinism?)
No, the doctrine of "the elect", which means "the chosen", is taught by the Bible (Mark 13:20, Luke 18:7, Romans 8:33, Romans 9:11, Romans 11:5, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 5:13; 2 Peter 1:10; 2 John 1:1,13).
(See also 1 Corinthians 1:12 below)
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(Re: Cannot someone who espouses Calvinism be a non-Christian?)
Note that what has been said above is from the Bible, not Calvinism. Also, a Christian is anyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Can you give some examples of individuals whom you would call espousers of Calvinism who believe the Biblical teachings of election and double predestination, but who do not believe the Biblical teachings that Jesus is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God, and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day?
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(Re: Can someone not believe in election and still be a Christian?)
If we define Christians as true disciples (students) of Jesus Christ (Acts 11:26b), then Christians must believe everything which is taught in Jesus' Word. For Jesus said: "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31b). And Jesus' Word the Holy Bible teaches election (Mark 13:20, Luke 18:7, Romans 8:33, Romans 9:11, Romans 11:5, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 5:13; 2 Peter 1:10; 2 John 1:1,13). Christians must not be ashamed of Jesus' Word regarding election (or regarding anything else) (Mark 8:38). Christians must both believe and preach Jesus' sound doctrine of election and all of the other sound doctrine of His Word (2 Timothy 4:2-4).
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(Re: Do believers in double predestination believe it because they believe that they are elect?)
Any believer in the Gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he or she is elect. For only elect individuals become believers in the Gospel (Acts 13:48b).
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(Re: Is it a problem that nobody knows by what *criteria the elect are chosen?)
While the Bible does not say by what criteria God determined which individuals to create as elect vessels of His mercy and which individuals to create as nonelect vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:21-23), God's criteria were not based on any differences between individual people (Romans 3:9-12); just as, for example, King David's criteria for determining which Moabites to kill and which to keep alive were not based on any differences between the individual people (2 Samuel 8:2); and just as a potter's criteria for determining which part of a lump of clay to make a vessel unto honor and which part of that same lump of clay to make another vessel unto dishonor are not based on any differences between the two parts of that same lump of clay (Romans 9:21).
Also, every Christian can know that he or she is elect (chosen) because Christian faith comes only to elect individuals (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2). Nonelect individuals can never believe in Jesus Christ, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), not because they are any worse than elect individuals (Romans 3:9-12), but simply because God did not choose to show them His mercy (Romans 9:15-22). Elect individuals are shown God's mercy and grace not based on any prior good works on their part (Titus 3:5, Ephesians 2:8-9), but because God chose (elected) them before they had done anything at all (Romans 9:11-24), and even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13).
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(Re: Are elect individuals chosen unconditionally, yet still by God's foreknowledge of their perseverance?)
No, for if God elects individuals unconditionally, then even from a position of omniscience where He knows who will persevere to the end, He could not elect only those whom He knows will persevere to the end, for that would make His election of individuals conditional on their persevering to the end, instead of unconditional on whether or not they will do that, which is in fact the case. For saved, elect individuals can ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).
(See the "NOSAS" section of Hebrews 3:6 below. Also, see the "perseverance" section of Philippians 2:13 below)
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(Re: Does election determine salvation?)
Yes, election (God's choosing) does determine salvation (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), but only initial salvation (Acts 13:48b), not ultimate salvation. For ultimate salvation will depend on the continued obedience of Christians subsequent to their initial salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9).
(See Ephesians 2:8 and Hebrews 10:26 below)
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(Re: Are elect individuals only those who are already saved, for otherwise election would make getting saved pointless because elect individuals cannot become nonelect?)
No, for election is different than salvation. Elect individuals are elected (chosen) by God before they get saved (Romans 11:28, Acts 13:48b, Ephesians 1:4, Romans 9:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:10). During their lifetime, elect individuals are eventually granted God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) because they are elect (Acts 13:48b). Also, while elect individuals cannot become nonelect, after they become Christians they need to be careful not to wrongly employ their free will in such a way that they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30, Hebrews 6:4-8).
(See, for example, Hebrews 6:4 below)
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(Re: Are only non-sinners the elect, and sinners the nonelect?)
No, for elect individuals (the chosen) were elected/loved and nonelect individuals were nonelected/hated by God before they were created or had committed any sin (Ephesians 1:4, Romans 9:11-13; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). And elect individuals remain elect even after they commit sin and before they become Christians (Romans 11:28, Acts 13:48b). And they remain elect even if they commit a sin after they become Christians. If they do that, then they can repent from it, confess it to God, and ask Him for forgiveness for it (1 John 1:9). And they will remain elect even if they continue in a sin without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29). For election is different than salvation, just as it is different than not sinning. It is simply God's having chosen individuals to become Christians at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b, Romans 9:11-24).
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(Re: Is there even such a thing as "initial salvation"?)
Yes, see the "Initial salvation" section of Ephesians 2:8 below.
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(Re: Is only the Church as a whole the elect?)
No, for election is on an individual basis (Romans 9:11-24). That is why there are elect individuals who are not yet part of the Church (Romans 11:28). People eventually become part of the Church (that is, become Christians) only because they were already elect (Acts 13:48b).
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(Re: Is only Jesus the elect?)
No, for there are elect individuals besides Jesus Christ (e.g. Matthew 24:30-31, Luke 18:7, Colossians 3:12). They are those who during their lifetime can eventually hear His Word, believe in Him, and follow Him, because they are His elect sheep, while nonelect individuals can never believe in Him, because they are not His sheep (John 10:26-27, John 8:42-47). Elect individuals are the good seed sown by Jesus, while nonelect individuals are the tares sown by the devil (Matthew 13:37-43, John 8:42-47).
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(Re: Does Romans 9:11-24 even refer to the idea of salvation?)
Yes, for it refers to God's mercy (Romans 9:15-16) toward elect individuals "unto glory" (Romans 9:23), which includes the glory of eternal life (Romans 8:17-25, Romans 2:6-7). And it refers to God's lack of mercy, and His wrath, toward nonelect individuals "to destruction" (Romans 9:22), meaning that wrath which is opposed to salvation (Romans 2:5-8, Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9), the wrathful destruction (but not annihilation) which is eternal (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15, Mark 9:45b-46).
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*Romans 9:12 / *Rom. 9:12 -
Esau served Jacob, de jure, as soon as he sold his birthright to Jacob (Genesis 25:33).
Later, Jacob acted like a servant before Esau only one time (Genesis 32:3-5) out of fear for his life (Genesis 27:42b).
But when Jacob realized that Esau no longer wanted to kill him (Genesis 33:4), he in no way served Esau, but even lied to him and completely avoided him (Genesis 33:14-20).
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*Romans 9:13 / *Rom. 9:13 -
This employs God's hatred for Esau (Malachi 1:3) as a type for God's hatred for nonelect individuals. And Romans 9:13 employs God's love for Jacob (Malachi 1:2b) as a type for God's love for elect individuals (Romans 9:11-13).
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(Re: Is it referring to nations, not individuals, like in Genesis 25:23, which is quoted in Romans 9:12?)
No, Romans 9:12-13 employs the difference between Jacob and Esau (Genesis 25:23-26, Malachi 1:2b-3) only as a type, not to represent the difference between the literal, genetic nations of Israel (Jacob: Genesis 32:28) and Edom (Esau: Genesis 36:43b), but to represent the difference between, on the one hand, all elect individuals from all nations (Romans 9:6-13, Galatians 3:28-29, Galatians 4:28), both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24), and, on the other hand, all nonelect individuals from all nations, both some Jews and some Gentiles, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-18, Exodus 9:12,16). Just as the individual babies in Romans 9:11-13 were either elected/loved or nonelected/hated by God before they were born, so all of the elect and nonelect individuals whom they represent were either elected/loved or nonelected/hated by God as individuals, not only before they were born, but even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13).
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(Re: Does Romans 9:13 really mean that God hates some individuals? In the context of election, is the terminology of election more suitable here: "Jacob I elected, but Esau I didn't"?)
No, for nothing is more suitable than what God Himself actually says. And what He says in Romans 9:13 and Malachi 1:2b-3 is not overridden by the concept of election in Romans 9:11, but is in addition to it, showing that God loves elect individuals and hates nonelect individuals.
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(Re: Can "hated" in Romans 9:13 simply mean "loved less", like in Genesis 29:31?)
No, it means hated, unto destruction (Malachi 1:3).
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(Re: Does God have no hatred, just wrath?)
God has both hatred (Romans 9:13, Malachi 1:3) and wrath (Romans 9:22, Revelation 14:10-11) toward nonelect individuals (Romans 9:11-13).
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(Re: Since God is the Creator of both body and soul, is neither evil, and does God hate neither?)
God hates nonelect individuals themselves (Romans 9:11-13), and they consist of both body and soul. So in hating nonelect individuals themselves, God hates both their bodies and souls, which have both become evil because of sin (Mark 7:21, Matthew 6:23, Romans 7:18, Romans 5:19a, Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10). That is why God will destroy (but not annihilate) both their bodies and souls in hell (Matthew 10:28, Mark 9:45-46, Revelation 14:10-11).
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(Re: Does God hate nothing which He has made?)
God hates nonelect individuals (Romans 9:11-13). And He made them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:21-23, Proverbs 16:4).
(See also the "Vessels of wrath" section above)
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