(Re: Full Preterism? / *Thessalonica)
Some Thessalonian Christians could still be alive at both the future falling away (apostasy) in the Church (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and the subsequent Second Coming of Jesus Christ (2 Thessalonians 1:7). For today many Christians are still living in Thessalonica, a major city in Greece.
Even though Jesus Christ's Second Coming has not happened yet and the persecution of Christians in the world has not ended yet, 2 Thessalonians 1:6 was fulfilled by any suffering which God brought on the first century AD Thessalonian Christians' persecutors while those persecutors were still alive; and it was and still is being fulfilled by those persecutors' suffering after they died in the ongoing torment of hell (cf. Luke 16:23), if they never repented and became Christians.
2 Thessalonians 1:7 was also true even though Jesus Christ's Second Coming has not happened yet and the persecution of Christians has not ended yet. For 2 Thessalonians 1:7 meant that if the Thessalonian Christians did not die before the Second Coming, at that time they would rest from being persecuted. 2 Thessalonians 1:7 did not mean that none of them, or even that not all of them, would die before the Second Coming, for they all did die, without the Second Coming happening, and without the persecution of Christians ending. The Second Coming did not happen in 70 AD, just as the persecution of Christians in Thessalonica and elsewhere in the world did not end in 70 AD.
The Second Coming will happen and the persecution of Christians will end only when Jesus Christ is physically "revealed from heaven with his mighty angels" (2 Thessalonians 1:7), and is seen by everyone (Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 1:7), and He descends bodily from heaven on a white horse and brings temporal judgment against non-Christians throughout the world alive at that time (Revelation 19:11-21), "that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8). The returned Jesus will then reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
If the first century AD Thessalonian Christians had believed the mistaken idea that 2 Thessalonians 1:7 meant that none of them would die before Jesus Christ's Second Coming, this could have led to a rank superstition among them, exemplified in the (not historical) story of:
The Magic Talisman
On the night that the apostle Paul's letter was first read to the Thessalonian Christians, they took special delight in what 2 Thessalonians 1:7 said, mistakenly thinking that it meant that none of them would die before Jesus Christ's Second Coming. But later that same night, in the wee hours, a very aged member of the congregation died in his sleep. As word of this spread the next day, it caused a great uproar within the congregation: "How can this be? How can Old Tychicus have died after we received Paul's promise that none of us would die?"
The congregation was called together that night to discuss the matter. The bishop stood up and said: "Let us lift up our voices to God and ask Him in prayer how this can have happened". But before they could pray, a young man stood up in the back and said: "I know how it happened. Old Tychicus' house is the farthest away from this church building in which we are keeping Paul's letter. So Old Tychicus must have been just outside the range of the magical power of the promise written in Paul's letter. What we need to do to make sure that none of us suffers Old Tychicus' fate is to copy Paul's promise onto little pieces of parchment and hang them around our necks so that the magical power of the written promise can be with us at all times, no matter where we are. Then none of us can die before Jesus' Second Coming".
The congregation agreed to this idea, but because it was already late, the congregation was unable that night to purchase blank parchment with which to make the little talismans. So everyone went home. (That same night, it so happened that a woman in the congregation named Anna conceived twins within her womb.) The next day, the parchment was purchased, the talismans were made, and everyone received one that night in church. But then only two weeks later, someone else in the congregation died, and then another died only a month after that, and then another died a couple of months after that. But after each of these people died, the congregation was able to come up with an explanation for how his or her death was not because of a failure of the talisman, but because of a failure of the person who died. For example, it was said that one of them died because she took off the talisman to bathe, and another must have died because he did not have enough faith in the power of the talisman.
Later, some nine months after the apostle Paul's letter had first been read to the congregation, Anna gave birth to beautiful twin girls. A few days later she brought them to church to receive their talismans just as other infants had been brought who had been born after Paul's letter had first been read to the congregation. But when she asked for the talismans, she was refused: "We're sorry, dear, but we can't give talismans to your girls. The midwives assure us that your girls were most likely conceived a little after Paul's letter was first read to the congregation. And the promise in Paul's letter applies only to those in the congregation who were alive at the exact moment that the promise was first read to the congregation".
"What are you talking about?", said Anna. "That letter has been read again many times to us since then. Why, it was read again to us just last week."
"We're sorry, dear. It doesn't work that way. The promise applies only to those alive at the first time that it's read."
"But then my babies are unprotected! They can die before Jesus' Second Coming! Oh, my precious little babies are going to die!"
Anna began sobbing uncontrollably, and as people gathered around her to commiserate with her over her unprotected babies, a wise old man named Apollos stood up and addressed the congregation with a firm voice: "I realize now what a gross, paganish superstition we have all fallen into. Surely Paul's promise applies to these precious little ones no less than it applies to any of us. And if it can apply to these, conceived a little after the promise was first read to us, then it can apply to those conceived years after, or even thousands of years after. The length of time doesn't matter. And it is the same with regard to our dying. If Old Tychicus and the others could die after the promise was first read to us, then any of us, even all of us alive today, could die before Jesus' Second Coming. Clearly, we have misunderstood the promise. It must simply mean that if we are still alive at the Second Coming -- and by 'we' I include not only us alive today but any Thessalonian Christians born in the future -- then at that time we will rest from being persecuted".
The congregation was dumbstruck when it heard this, and it felt ashamed. Then, as Apollos took the talisman off of his neck, one by one so did all of the rest of the congregation. They put all of the talismans in a little box which contained Paul's letter. And then they all kneeled down and prayed together for God to forgive them for their paganish error, which He did. And after that, they lived full lives and had many children, who grew up and had children, who grew up and had children, and so on, so that there are still Thessalonian Christians alive today, in the city of Thessalonica in Greece. And they are still waiting patiently for Jesus Christ's Second Coming (2 Peter 3:8-9), and the end of the persecution of Christians (2 Timothy 3:12).
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(Re: Can 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 refer to Jesus' Second Coming, when Zechariah 14, Matthew 24, and Revelation 19 do not say that He will come with fire?)
Yes, for those other verses do not have to say that He will come with fire, because 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 does.
Similarly, nothing in Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:11-21, or 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 says that the Lord Jesus Christ will set His feet on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem on that day. But they do not have to, because Zechariah 14:4 does.
2 Thessalonians 1:7 refers to when "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven", which is only at His Second Coming (Matthew 24:30).
And 2 Thessalonians 1:7 refers to when "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels", which is only at His Second Coming (Matthew 25:31, Matthew 24:31, Mark 8:38, Luke 9:26).
And 2 Thessalonians 1:9 refers to the future presence of the Lord in glory and power, which is only at His Second Coming (Matthew 24:30).
And 2 Thessalonians 1:10 refers to when Jesus Christ "shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe", which is only at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
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*2 Thessalonians 1:9 / *2 Thes. 1:9 -
(Re: Means that God does not hate nonelect individuals; He will just separate them from Him?)
2 Thessalonians 1:9 does not contradict that God hates nonelect individuals (Romans 9:11-13). For they can be both separated from Him and hated by Him at the same time.
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(Everlasting destruction)
The "everlasting destruction" of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 can include non-Christians who will still be alive at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, and who will be sent first to Hades, the temporal hell, at their death at the Second Coming (Revelation 19:21), and then later to the lake of fire, the eternal hell, after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:4-15).
(See the "After the Second Coming" section of Revelation 20:4 below. Also, see Matthew 25:41 above)
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*2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 / *2 Thes. 2:1 -
(Re: *Imminence?)
Jesus Christ's return is not imminent, for... (See "the Bible shows" under Matthew 24:31 above)
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(Re: *Countering *Full preterism)
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation coming of Jesus Christ and rapture (gathering together) of the Church, which will not occur until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-21). But the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 was not so much countering pre-tribulation rapturism as he was countering full preterism. Full preterism mistakenly says that the Day of the Lord (Christ) is already "at hand" (2 Thessalonians 2:2) in the sense of already present, that the Second Coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the Church is already a present reality (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism because it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some Christians (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
(See also the "Full preterism?" section of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 above)
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(Re: How can it be about full preterism when "at hand" just means "close"?)
In 2 Thessalonians 2:2 the original Greek word (enistemi: G1764) translated as "at hand" can mean "present" (Romans 8:38; 1 Corinthians 3:22; 1 Corinthians 7:26, Galatians 1:4).
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(Re: Was not the problem only that they had misunderstood the "thief in the night" part of 1 Thessalonians 5:2?)
Note that full preterism was a problem even at the time of the apostle Paul (2 Timothy 2:18).
Also, he had already explained in 1 Thessalonians 5:4 that the Second Coming would not come as a thief to obedient Christians. That is why he makes no mention of the thief principle in 2 Thessalonians.
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(Re: What had Paul said must happen before Jesus would return?)
The events of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, which Paul had previously explained to the Thessalonians in person (2 Thessalonians 2:5).
Also, Jesus had shown that His return could not happen until after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).
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Because preterism and Christian Futurism differ on when things will happen, they necessarily differ on how things will happen. For preterism considers most Biblical prophecies to be symbolic descriptions of invisible, spiritual events which could have occurred sometime in the past, while Christian Futurism considers most Biblical prophecies to be literal descriptions of visible, physical events, a great many of which have never occurred in the past.
Because of this difference in their belief in how most Biblical prophecies are fulfilled, preterism sees Christian Futurism as carnal, only interested in the physical, instead of setting its sights on the spiritual, while Christian Futurism sees preterism as overly intellectualized, forgetting that God is interested not only in spiritual redemption, but also in complete physical redemption (Romans 8:23-25, Luke 24:39, Philippians 3:21, Revelation 21:5).
The fact that full preterism overthrows the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18) does not mean that full preterism in itself is a dead faith. For it in itself is not antithetical to a living faith in Jesus Christ. But it is a faith so intellectualized that some people are not equipped to be able to hear its teaching that we are now experiencing Revelation 21:4, without the cognitive dissonance between this belief and the suffering that we are now experiencing causing them to throw off their faith in Jesus Christ altogether as an empty pipe dream.
The full-preterist view, if it were true, would indeed be very depressing. For it would mean that God's promise that Christians will experience no more death (Revelation 21:4) has already been fulfilled, even though some Christians are still dying every minute. And it would mean that God's promise that Christians will experience no more sorrow (Revelation 21:4) has already been fulfilled, even though some Christians are still experiencing sorrow every minute. And it would mean that God's promise that Christians will experience no more crying (Revelation 21:4) has already been fulfilled, even though some Christians are still crying every minute. And it would mean that God's promise that Christians will experience no more pain (Revelation 21:4) has already been fulfilled, even though some Christians are still experiencing pain every minute. So full preterism would make God's promises utterly worthless and meaningless, causing some Christians to even lose their faith in Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 2:18).
Every Christian will be a preterist only when Revelation 21:4 has actually been fulfilled for Christians.
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(Re: Could *preterism and some other views be based on *fear?)
Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the Church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these five views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the Church alive today that it will not have to physically suffer through that Tribulation.
Preterism says that the Tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history, such as during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after. Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus Christ will return and rapture the Church into the third heaven before the Tribulation. Symbolicism says that the Tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which Christians have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some Christians have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the Tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.
But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these five views have each tried to build up between the Church and the Tribulation will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the Church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the Tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These five views may have left some Christians unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these five views could even contribute to some Christians ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the Tribulation, when they will become "offended" that God is letting them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).
Even though the Church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future Tribulation, the Church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many Christians will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12). And their physical death will in no way rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
(See also the first entry under Job above)
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(Re: *Partial preterism?)
Why does partial preterism believe in a future Second Coming, but not a future Tribulation, when:
1. The Second Coming and rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the Church: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) must occur "immediately after" the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6);
2. The Second Coming and rapture cannot occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-18); and
3. At Jesus' Second Coming to rapture and marry the Church, He will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20)?
Partial preterism might answer: "It is obvious that the Second Coming has not happened yet". And that is right, but full preterism nonetheless still mistakenly claims that the Second Coming, resurrection and rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) have already happened. For full preterism employs the same "it is only allegorical, not literal" argument which partial preterism uses to mistakenly claim that all of the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have already happened. If partial preterism has no problem accepting that the Second Coming, resurrection of the Church, and rapture have not occurred yet, for nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), then why does partial preterism have a problem accepting the fact that the events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have not occurred yet either, for nowhere in history do we find these events either?
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(Re: What is the connection between Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6 on the one hand, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-54 on the other?)
They all refer to the still-unfulfilled Second Coming of Jesus Christ and the physical resurrection and rapture (gathering together/catching up together) of the Church at that time, "immediately after" the still-unfulfilled Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
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(Re: How could *historicism make accurate predictions of major world events far into the future if its prophetic understanding is wrong?)
Even if it is ever shown that historicism did make an accurate prediction with regard to the timing of an event, this would not prove that historicism per se is correct. For even a broken clock with hands is right twice a day. You would have to give every historicist prediction ever made throughout history, so that we can see what percentage turned out to be true with regard to the timing of an event, and if any predictions could have come true simply because they were common sense (for example, that the "sick man" of Europe, the Ottoman empire, would fall), or else simply by chance, because there were such a huge number of different predictions, almost all of which turned out to be mistaken.
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(Re: Christian Futurists have made all sorts of wrong predictions)
That does not disprove Christian Futurism per se, just as when, for example, some Christians teach wrong things regarding soteriology, this does not disprove soteriology per se, that is, the idea that Jesus Christ saves people from hell (John 3:16).
(See also the "Future" section of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 (Overview) below)
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*2 Thessalonians 2:2 / *2 Thes. 2:2 -
(Re: The *Day of the Lord / *DOTL)
The future Day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which will not occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the Church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
(See also 2 Peter 3:10 below)
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(Re: Is the Day of the Lord the seventh year of the Tribulation? And is that the year that God will cause all of the wars in Revelation?)
While Jesus Christ Himself will wage war at His future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:11-21), it will be the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and Satan/Lucifer (the dragon) who will wage the prior war in Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 12:17, which will occur during the latter half of the future Tribulation (of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24), during the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And it will be the archangel Michael and his angels who will wage the yet-prior war in Revelation 12:7-9, which will occur mid-Tribulation, right before the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign. And it will be 200 million strange horse-like beings (and their possibly unclean-spirit riders), led by four, powerful fallen angels, who will wage the yet-prior war in Revelation 9:14-19, which will occur near the end of the first half of the future Tribulation. And it will be men who will wage the yet-prior war in Revelation 6:4-8, which will begin the Tribulation
(See the "War" section of Revelation 13:5 below)
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(Re: The DOTL as Judgment)
See section 2 of 2 Peter 3:10 below.
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*2 Thessalonians 2:3 / *2 Thes. 2:3 -
(*Revealed)
This refers to when an individual man will be revealed (that is, without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist, by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the Church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at His Second Coming, Jesus will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).
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Nothing that the apostle Paul says requires that the Day of the Lord will have started by the time that the man of sin is revealed.
(See 2 Thessalonians 2:2 above)
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(Re: *Apostasia)
The "falling away" (Greek: apostasia: G0646) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some in the Church in the latter times will depart from faith in Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 4:1) when the Antichrist will be revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and will begin a worldwide persecution against the Church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the Church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).
The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it is derived from, aphistemi (G0868), include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the first century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from faith in Jesus Christ. Also, at the rapture, the Church will not physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30, Proverbs 2:21-22), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus Christ at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
(See "At that meeting" under Matthew 24:31 above)
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(Re: Is the "departure" the gathering?)
No, the "falling away" (the apostasy) is one of the... (See "things" in section 1 of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 above)
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(*Son of perdition / *Perdition)
The Antichrist will not have to be Judas simply because they are both called "the" son of perdition. For the Antichrist is called "the" son of perdition (2 Thessalonians 2:3) only in the context of his being the only person who will sit in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declare himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). And Judas was called "the" son of perdition (John 17:12) only in the context of his being the only one of the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ to lose his salvation, to draw back to perdition (cf. Hebrews 10:39). Every non-Christian is a son of perdition/damnation/destruction (Greek: apoleia, G0684) in the sense that every non-Christian will end up suffering eternal perdition/damnation/destruction (2 Peter 3:7; 2 Peter 2:1,3; Philippians 1:28, Philippians 3:19; 1 Timothy 6:9b-10, Matthew 7:13).
(See also John 6:70 above)
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(Re: An apostate Antichrist?)
In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the apostasy can be in the Church, while the man of lawlessness (that is the future Antichrist) can come from outside of the Church. That is, nothing in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 or in any other Bible verse says or requires that the Antichrist himself will be apostate, that is, someone who was once a Christian but then rejected Christianity. Instead, the Antichrist can simply be someone who was never a Christian.
(See the "Druze" section of Revelation 13:4 below)
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Next entry / Prior / Table of Contents
Dec 22, 2018
Some Thessalonian Christians could still be alive at both the future falling away (apostasy) in the Church (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and the subsequent Second Coming of Jesus Christ (2 Thessalonians 1:7). For today many Christians are still living in Thessalonica, a major city in Greece.
Even though Jesus Christ's Second Coming has not happened yet and the persecution of Christians in the world has not ended yet, 2 Thessalonians 1:6 was fulfilled by any suffering which God brought on the first century AD Thessalonian Christians' persecutors while those persecutors were still alive; and it was and still is being fulfilled by those persecutors' suffering after they died in the ongoing torment of hell (cf. Luke 16:23), if they never repented and became Christians.
2 Thessalonians 1:7 was also true even though Jesus Christ's Second Coming has not happened yet and the persecution of Christians has not ended yet. For 2 Thessalonians 1:7 meant that if the Thessalonian Christians did not die before the Second Coming, at that time they would rest from being persecuted. 2 Thessalonians 1:7 did not mean that none of them, or even that not all of them, would die before the Second Coming, for they all did die, without the Second Coming happening, and without the persecution of Christians ending. The Second Coming did not happen in 70 AD, just as the persecution of Christians in Thessalonica and elsewhere in the world did not end in 70 AD.
The Second Coming will happen and the persecution of Christians will end only when Jesus Christ is physically "revealed from heaven with his mighty angels" (2 Thessalonians 1:7), and is seen by everyone (Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 1:7), and He descends bodily from heaven on a white horse and brings temporal judgment against non-Christians throughout the world alive at that time (Revelation 19:11-21), "that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8). The returned Jesus will then reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
If the first century AD Thessalonian Christians had believed the mistaken idea that 2 Thessalonians 1:7 meant that none of them would die before Jesus Christ's Second Coming, this could have led to a rank superstition among them, exemplified in the (not historical) story of:
The Magic Talisman
On the night that the apostle Paul's letter was first read to the Thessalonian Christians, they took special delight in what 2 Thessalonians 1:7 said, mistakenly thinking that it meant that none of them would die before Jesus Christ's Second Coming. But later that same night, in the wee hours, a very aged member of the congregation died in his sleep. As word of this spread the next day, it caused a great uproar within the congregation: "How can this be? How can Old Tychicus have died after we received Paul's promise that none of us would die?"
The congregation was called together that night to discuss the matter. The bishop stood up and said: "Let us lift up our voices to God and ask Him in prayer how this can have happened". But before they could pray, a young man stood up in the back and said: "I know how it happened. Old Tychicus' house is the farthest away from this church building in which we are keeping Paul's letter. So Old Tychicus must have been just outside the range of the magical power of the promise written in Paul's letter. What we need to do to make sure that none of us suffers Old Tychicus' fate is to copy Paul's promise onto little pieces of parchment and hang them around our necks so that the magical power of the written promise can be with us at all times, no matter where we are. Then none of us can die before Jesus' Second Coming".
The congregation agreed to this idea, but because it was already late, the congregation was unable that night to purchase blank parchment with which to make the little talismans. So everyone went home. (That same night, it so happened that a woman in the congregation named Anna conceived twins within her womb.) The next day, the parchment was purchased, the talismans were made, and everyone received one that night in church. But then only two weeks later, someone else in the congregation died, and then another died only a month after that, and then another died a couple of months after that. But after each of these people died, the congregation was able to come up with an explanation for how his or her death was not because of a failure of the talisman, but because of a failure of the person who died. For example, it was said that one of them died because she took off the talisman to bathe, and another must have died because he did not have enough faith in the power of the talisman.
Later, some nine months after the apostle Paul's letter had first been read to the congregation, Anna gave birth to beautiful twin girls. A few days later she brought them to church to receive their talismans just as other infants had been brought who had been born after Paul's letter had first been read to the congregation. But when she asked for the talismans, she was refused: "We're sorry, dear, but we can't give talismans to your girls. The midwives assure us that your girls were most likely conceived a little after Paul's letter was first read to the congregation. And the promise in Paul's letter applies only to those in the congregation who were alive at the exact moment that the promise was first read to the congregation".
"What are you talking about?", said Anna. "That letter has been read again many times to us since then. Why, it was read again to us just last week."
"We're sorry, dear. It doesn't work that way. The promise applies only to those alive at the first time that it's read."
"But then my babies are unprotected! They can die before Jesus' Second Coming! Oh, my precious little babies are going to die!"
Anna began sobbing uncontrollably, and as people gathered around her to commiserate with her over her unprotected babies, a wise old man named Apollos stood up and addressed the congregation with a firm voice: "I realize now what a gross, paganish superstition we have all fallen into. Surely Paul's promise applies to these precious little ones no less than it applies to any of us. And if it can apply to these, conceived a little after the promise was first read to us, then it can apply to those conceived years after, or even thousands of years after. The length of time doesn't matter. And it is the same with regard to our dying. If Old Tychicus and the others could die after the promise was first read to us, then any of us, even all of us alive today, could die before Jesus' Second Coming. Clearly, we have misunderstood the promise. It must simply mean that if we are still alive at the Second Coming -- and by 'we' I include not only us alive today but any Thessalonian Christians born in the future -- then at that time we will rest from being persecuted".
The congregation was dumbstruck when it heard this, and it felt ashamed. Then, as Apollos took the talisman off of his neck, one by one so did all of the rest of the congregation. They put all of the talismans in a little box which contained Paul's letter. And then they all kneeled down and prayed together for God to forgive them for their paganish error, which He did. And after that, they lived full lives and had many children, who grew up and had children, who grew up and had children, and so on, so that there are still Thessalonian Christians alive today, in the city of Thessalonica in Greece. And they are still waiting patiently for Jesus Christ's Second Coming (2 Peter 3:8-9), and the end of the persecution of Christians (2 Timothy 3:12).
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(Re: Can 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 refer to Jesus' Second Coming, when Zechariah 14, Matthew 24, and Revelation 19 do not say that He will come with fire?)
Yes, for those other verses do not have to say that He will come with fire, because 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 does.
Similarly, nothing in Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:11-21, or 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 says that the Lord Jesus Christ will set His feet on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem on that day. But they do not have to, because Zechariah 14:4 does.
2 Thessalonians 1:7 refers to when "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven", which is only at His Second Coming (Matthew 24:30).
And 2 Thessalonians 1:7 refers to when "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels", which is only at His Second Coming (Matthew 25:31, Matthew 24:31, Mark 8:38, Luke 9:26).
And 2 Thessalonians 1:9 refers to the future presence of the Lord in glory and power, which is only at His Second Coming (Matthew 24:30).
And 2 Thessalonians 1:10 refers to when Jesus Christ "shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe", which is only at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
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*2 Thessalonians 1:9 / *2 Thes. 1:9 -
(Re: Means that God does not hate nonelect individuals; He will just separate them from Him?)
2 Thessalonians 1:9 does not contradict that God hates nonelect individuals (Romans 9:11-13). For they can be both separated from Him and hated by Him at the same time.
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(Everlasting destruction)
The "everlasting destruction" of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 can include non-Christians who will still be alive at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, and who will be sent first to Hades, the temporal hell, at their death at the Second Coming (Revelation 19:21), and then later to the lake of fire, the eternal hell, after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:4-15).
(See the "After the Second Coming" section of Revelation 20:4 below. Also, see Matthew 25:41 above)
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*2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 / *2 Thes. 2:1 -
(Re: *Imminence?)
Jesus Christ's return is not imminent, for... (See "the Bible shows" under Matthew 24:31 above)
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(Re: *Countering *Full preterism)
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation coming of Jesus Christ and rapture (gathering together) of the Church, which will not occur until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-21). But the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 was not so much countering pre-tribulation rapturism as he was countering full preterism. Full preterism mistakenly says that the Day of the Lord (Christ) is already "at hand" (2 Thessalonians 2:2) in the sense of already present, that the Second Coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the Church is already a present reality (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism because it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some Christians (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
(See also the "Full preterism?" section of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 above)
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(Re: How can it be about full preterism when "at hand" just means "close"?)
In 2 Thessalonians 2:2 the original Greek word (enistemi: G1764) translated as "at hand" can mean "present" (Romans 8:38; 1 Corinthians 3:22; 1 Corinthians 7:26, Galatians 1:4).
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(Re: Was not the problem only that they had misunderstood the "thief in the night" part of 1 Thessalonians 5:2?)
Note that full preterism was a problem even at the time of the apostle Paul (2 Timothy 2:18).
Also, he had already explained in 1 Thessalonians 5:4 that the Second Coming would not come as a thief to obedient Christians. That is why he makes no mention of the thief principle in 2 Thessalonians.
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(Re: What had Paul said must happen before Jesus would return?)
The events of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, which Paul had previously explained to the Thessalonians in person (2 Thessalonians 2:5).
Also, Jesus had shown that His return could not happen until after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).
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Because preterism and Christian Futurism differ on when things will happen, they necessarily differ on how things will happen. For preterism considers most Biblical prophecies to be symbolic descriptions of invisible, spiritual events which could have occurred sometime in the past, while Christian Futurism considers most Biblical prophecies to be literal descriptions of visible, physical events, a great many of which have never occurred in the past.
Because of this difference in their belief in how most Biblical prophecies are fulfilled, preterism sees Christian Futurism as carnal, only interested in the physical, instead of setting its sights on the spiritual, while Christian Futurism sees preterism as overly intellectualized, forgetting that God is interested not only in spiritual redemption, but also in complete physical redemption (Romans 8:23-25, Luke 24:39, Philippians 3:21, Revelation 21:5).
The fact that full preterism overthrows the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18) does not mean that full preterism in itself is a dead faith. For it in itself is not antithetical to a living faith in Jesus Christ. But it is a faith so intellectualized that some people are not equipped to be able to hear its teaching that we are now experiencing Revelation 21:4, without the cognitive dissonance between this belief and the suffering that we are now experiencing causing them to throw off their faith in Jesus Christ altogether as an empty pipe dream.
The full-preterist view, if it were true, would indeed be very depressing. For it would mean that God's promise that Christians will experience no more death (Revelation 21:4) has already been fulfilled, even though some Christians are still dying every minute. And it would mean that God's promise that Christians will experience no more sorrow (Revelation 21:4) has already been fulfilled, even though some Christians are still experiencing sorrow every minute. And it would mean that God's promise that Christians will experience no more crying (Revelation 21:4) has already been fulfilled, even though some Christians are still crying every minute. And it would mean that God's promise that Christians will experience no more pain (Revelation 21:4) has already been fulfilled, even though some Christians are still experiencing pain every minute. So full preterism would make God's promises utterly worthless and meaningless, causing some Christians to even lose their faith in Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 2:18).
Every Christian will be a preterist only when Revelation 21:4 has actually been fulfilled for Christians.
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(Re: Could *preterism and some other views be based on *fear?)
Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the Church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these five views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the Church alive today that it will not have to physically suffer through that Tribulation.
Preterism says that the Tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history, such as during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after. Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus Christ will return and rapture the Church into the third heaven before the Tribulation. Symbolicism says that the Tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which Christians have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some Christians have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the Tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.
But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these five views have each tried to build up between the Church and the Tribulation will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the Church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the Tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These five views may have left some Christians unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these five views could even contribute to some Christians ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the Tribulation, when they will become "offended" that God is letting them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).
Even though the Church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future Tribulation, the Church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many Christians will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12). And their physical death will in no way rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
(See also the first entry under Job above)
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(Re: *Partial preterism?)
Why does partial preterism believe in a future Second Coming, but not a future Tribulation, when:
1. The Second Coming and rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the Church: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) must occur "immediately after" the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6);
2. The Second Coming and rapture cannot occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-18); and
3. At Jesus' Second Coming to rapture and marry the Church, He will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20)?
Partial preterism might answer: "It is obvious that the Second Coming has not happened yet". And that is right, but full preterism nonetheless still mistakenly claims that the Second Coming, resurrection and rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) have already happened. For full preterism employs the same "it is only allegorical, not literal" argument which partial preterism uses to mistakenly claim that all of the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have already happened. If partial preterism has no problem accepting that the Second Coming, resurrection of the Church, and rapture have not occurred yet, for nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), then why does partial preterism have a problem accepting the fact that the events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have not occurred yet either, for nowhere in history do we find these events either?
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(Re: What is the connection between Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6 on the one hand, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-54 on the other?)
They all refer to the still-unfulfilled Second Coming of Jesus Christ and the physical resurrection and rapture (gathering together/catching up together) of the Church at that time, "immediately after" the still-unfulfilled Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
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(Re: How could *historicism make accurate predictions of major world events far into the future if its prophetic understanding is wrong?)
Even if it is ever shown that historicism did make an accurate prediction with regard to the timing of an event, this would not prove that historicism per se is correct. For even a broken clock with hands is right twice a day. You would have to give every historicist prediction ever made throughout history, so that we can see what percentage turned out to be true with regard to the timing of an event, and if any predictions could have come true simply because they were common sense (for example, that the "sick man" of Europe, the Ottoman empire, would fall), or else simply by chance, because there were such a huge number of different predictions, almost all of which turned out to be mistaken.
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(Re: Christian Futurists have made all sorts of wrong predictions)
That does not disprove Christian Futurism per se, just as when, for example, some Christians teach wrong things regarding soteriology, this does not disprove soteriology per se, that is, the idea that Jesus Christ saves people from hell (John 3:16).
(See also the "Future" section of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 (Overview) below)
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*2 Thessalonians 2:2 / *2 Thes. 2:2 -
(Re: The *Day of the Lord / *DOTL)
The future Day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which will not occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the Church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
(See also 2 Peter 3:10 below)
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(Re: Is the Day of the Lord the seventh year of the Tribulation? And is that the year that God will cause all of the wars in Revelation?)
While Jesus Christ Himself will wage war at His future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:11-21), it will be the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and Satan/Lucifer (the dragon) who will wage the prior war in Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 12:17, which will occur during the latter half of the future Tribulation (of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24), during the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And it will be the archangel Michael and his angels who will wage the yet-prior war in Revelation 12:7-9, which will occur mid-Tribulation, right before the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign. And it will be 200 million strange horse-like beings (and their possibly unclean-spirit riders), led by four, powerful fallen angels, who will wage the yet-prior war in Revelation 9:14-19, which will occur near the end of the first half of the future Tribulation. And it will be men who will wage the yet-prior war in Revelation 6:4-8, which will begin the Tribulation
(See the "War" section of Revelation 13:5 below)
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(Re: The DOTL as Judgment)
See section 2 of 2 Peter 3:10 below.
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*2 Thessalonians 2:3 / *2 Thes. 2:3 -
(*Revealed)
This refers to when an individual man will be revealed (that is, without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist, by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the Church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at His Second Coming, Jesus will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).
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Nothing that the apostle Paul says requires that the Day of the Lord will have started by the time that the man of sin is revealed.
(See 2 Thessalonians 2:2 above)
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(Re: *Apostasia)
The "falling away" (Greek: apostasia: G0646) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some in the Church in the latter times will depart from faith in Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 4:1) when the Antichrist will be revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and will begin a worldwide persecution against the Church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the Church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).
The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it is derived from, aphistemi (G0868), include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the first century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from faith in Jesus Christ. Also, at the rapture, the Church will not physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30, Proverbs 2:21-22), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus Christ at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
(See "At that meeting" under Matthew 24:31 above)
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(Re: Is the "departure" the gathering?)
No, the "falling away" (the apostasy) is one of the... (See "things" in section 1 of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 above)
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(*Son of perdition / *Perdition)
The Antichrist will not have to be Judas simply because they are both called "the" son of perdition. For the Antichrist is called "the" son of perdition (2 Thessalonians 2:3) only in the context of his being the only person who will sit in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declare himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). And Judas was called "the" son of perdition (John 17:12) only in the context of his being the only one of the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ to lose his salvation, to draw back to perdition (cf. Hebrews 10:39). Every non-Christian is a son of perdition/damnation/destruction (Greek: apoleia, G0684) in the sense that every non-Christian will end up suffering eternal perdition/damnation/destruction (2 Peter 3:7; 2 Peter 2:1,3; Philippians 1:28, Philippians 3:19; 1 Timothy 6:9b-10, Matthew 7:13).
(See also John 6:70 above)
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(Re: An apostate Antichrist?)
In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the apostasy can be in the Church, while the man of lawlessness (that is the future Antichrist) can come from outside of the Church. That is, nothing in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 or in any other Bible verse says or requires that the Antichrist himself will be apostate, that is, someone who was once a Christian but then rejected Christianity. Instead, the Antichrist can simply be someone who was never a Christian.
(See the "Druze" section of Revelation 13:4 below)
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