Simon Peter
14th Generation PROTESTant
6 times
Perhaps I should go back and count how many times in this thread WoF believers have criticised me?
It will be a lot more than 6 times.
peace,
Simon
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6 times
What about accusing someone who calls down curses, threatens, intimidates? And besides, they were accusing people of criticising their ministry. So then it's OK for me to accuse them by your logic.
Is it OK to accuse an accuser but not a false teacher?
And once you start accusing an accuser, doesn't that make you an accuser? And so then it's OK to accuse you?
It sounds like you want different rules for yourself than for others. I assume you learned that from WoF leadership.
peace,
Simon
What is the WoF stand on eternal security verses 'loss of salvation'?
wof had a discussion about that in our forum once. about what we CF wof believed. and what our respected wof teachers believed.
i will try to find that thread.
it was an excellent discussion on osas vs losing your salvation.
we also had a discussion on born again JESUS.
there are some topics we are still discussing amongst ourselves.
wof is growing in a lot of things.
we are thankful for what we clearly understand. grace, faith, speaking the WORD, authority, dominion, the blessings of GOD, redeemed from the curse, GOD is ALWAYS good, the devil is always bad, etc.
our sof is the things we have settled but there is still much more to settle as we diligently and deeply study the WORD.
David truly was announted to displace king Saul. Saul was wrong and twisted on EVERY level. He tried to kill David over and over again. But David honored God and did not take Saul's life even when he could have.
It is simply not your place, Simon. This vitriol you have is simply not God's plan for you, Simon. He has a much better, more productive and certainly more positive plan for you.
Is the Old Testament not even in your bible?For me personally, the reason I call myself "WoF" is not because of what Hagin, or Copeland, or anyone else says. It's because of one simple Truth that is at the core of everything I believe and can be summed up in 2 simple sentences;
God is good.This is an incredibly simple revelation that I believe much of the church lacks. While the WoF movement has its flaws (as does every movement), this is one Truth that is absolutely rooted in the movement.
Satan is bad.
Now inevitably, someone will be along shortly to tell me that "good" doesn't necessarily mean "good", at least not the way any rational person would think when they think of the word "good". These are people that conclude because something "good" results from a "bad" thing, the "bad" thing must have been God's doing.
For example, I once heard a testimony where this man stood up and thanked God for making him wreck his car. His reasoning? Because while he was in the hospital after the accident, he witnessed to the man in the bed next to him and that guy got saved.
Now PRAISE GOD that man was able to witness to a guy who accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior. But I find it theologically troubling that someone would thank God for making them wreck their car, as if God reached down from heaven and pushed the car off the road. Instead, I believe that God took what was meant for evil (a car accident) and turned it for good (an opportunity for salvation).
In other sects of Christianity, it seems to me like people want to make God the author of their problems and suffering. Indeed, I've had people on this very forum tell me plainly that they believe God is the author of the evil in their lives. I have no idea why people would find comfort in a belief that. To me, that's a bit like a husband who beats his wife and then asks her to come to him for comfort. To the contrary, I believe God is an ever-present HELP in time of need.
I believe that because of this fallen world and because of our own choices and the choices of others, we will have struggles and suffering. Jesus told us bluntly that in this world, we would have troubles of all kinds. But in the next breath, He said, "Take heart, for I have overcome the world!" That's the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel that I believe has been perverted in much of Christianity.
That is why I call myself "WoF". It's not because I agree with Hagin and Copeland, or even really care what they have to say. It's not because of the SoF in the WoF forum (which I have minor issues with). It's because I believe that God is good and the devil is bad. Period.
I'm not trying to kill anyone, I'm just pointing out the curses and threats that prosperty gospel/WoF leaders have used.
In fact the prosperty gospel/WoF leaders are the ones who are using death threats, not me.
peace,
Simon
Perhaps I should go back and count how many times in this thread WoF believers have criticised me?
It will be a lot more than 6 times.
peace,
Simon
if we disciple our children the same way the LORD discipled HIS 12, we wouldn't need to be punishing. some people have a harsh method of training children. they give strict rules and punish disobedience. but they see their children as little people that need to be trained that way.Is the Old Testament not even in your bible?
What righteous father does not punish rebellious children? You don't equate Yah to a abusive husband, but to a correcting Father. You just plain don't understand the Wrath of Yah. If you don't correct and punish your children, I fear for how they will turn out.
22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.
23 If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry;
24 And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.
De 9:7 Remember, and forget not, how thou provokedst the LORD thy God to wrath in the wilderness: from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the LORD.
De 9:8 Also in Horeb ye provoked the LORD to wrath, so that the LORD was angry with you to have destroyed you.
2Ch 30:8 Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you.
2Ch 34:21 Go, enquire of the LORD for me, and for them that are left in Israel and in Judah, concerning the words of the book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is poured out upon us, because our fathers have not kept the word of the LORD, to do after all that is written in this book.
It is not Satan that destroys the world during the tribulation, it is the Wrath of Yah that falls on the wickedness of man. His wrath is against those that disobey His instructions.
Satan can bring blessings to those that do his will. Yah will bring correction, punishment and even death against those that go against His instruction. Who is the source of your 'revelation'?
Is the Old Testament not even in your bible?
Yah will bring correction, punishment and even death against those that go against His instruction.
Ok, so obviously you have not read the book.
Thanks for demonstrating that so clearly.
If you had read the book, or listened to the sermon it came from, you would not be able to honestly connect the sentence taken from two pages and make it say what you are saying.
Ok, you have not read the book and will not. And you don't care if your cut and paste quotes are in context or not.
Yikes! So according to you, God 'discilpines' people who are in sin and/or rebellion to Him by KILLING them? Isn't the purpose of discipline to teach someone, or more accurately, disciple them? It's going to be awfully hard to learn something from this alleged 'discipline' if you're dead.
My point is you have to have a balance in your understanding of Yah to see His loving nature AND His wrath on those that do evil.if we disciple our children the same way the LORD discipled HIS 12, we wouldn't need to be punishing. some people have a harsh method of training children. they give strict rules and punish disobedience. but they see their children as little people that need to be trained that way.
other people train their children with instruction training correction nurture. they correct a child the way a pilot corrects his course. he "steers" it on course. they see children as precious gifts from GOD.
other people don't train their children at all. no nurture or instruction or correction. they abandon and neglect their children. and we all suffer the consequences of those kind of children. because when the untrained undisciplined child grows up into an undisciplined untrained adult they cause trouble in society one way or another. some of the trouble they cause can be quite serious.
also some children that are "strongly" disciplined can grow up bitter and damaged and then take out their anger and frustration on society too.
the new creation believer has the HOLY SPIRIT permanently dwelling inside. HIS job is to train us. and HE uses the same wonderful training methods JESUS used with HIS disciples - love, truth, verbal correction, instruction, etc.
JESUS never needed to punish HIS disciples because HE trained them very well. and i think we would all have to admit that NONE of them were shining examples of a good student. JESUS had to correct them a lot. but HIS training for even difficult people like HIS disciples WORKED well.
likewise the HOLY SPIRIT is VERY good at HIS job. that is why scripture says that HE WHO began a good work in us WILL complete it. WOF believe that JESUS is GOD'S truest example of HIS will and ways. the way JESUS trained up disciples is the way the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD trains us.
the old testament believers did NOT have the HOLY SPIRIT dwelling inside them. ALL they had was the WORD of GOD that THEY had to live out by their own human ability - their flesh ability. and we see the trouble they had living it out. they had consequences galor, and it still couldn't keep many of them on track.
that is why the HOLY SPIRIT living inside AND the WORD of GOD mixed with grace and faith works waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than what the OT believers had. that is one reason wof are soooo happy. the training we undergo is love of GOD based. we study the NT mostly because that is where the new and living way to learn and grow and live and talk is found. the OT only prophecies these NT better ways.
when NT believers study the OT too much they get confused. they start trying to live it out the way it is written. they forget what manner of man they are - a HOLY SPIRIT indwelt believer with tremendous HOLY SPIRIT ability available to live out a life GREATLY pleasing to GOD.
when wof struggle with a stubborn anti-BIBLE anti-holy behavior or thought or feeling - we go to war using the WORD of GOD. we speak to that mountain of un-godliness and FORCE it to change. wof have learned that wrestling with our own flesh and blood is an unprofitable losing battle. what was started by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT M U S T be lived out and completed by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT.
wof also use the WORD of GOD to call in a GODLY behavior. if we want to be more loving or patient or wise we speak GOD'S WORD over ourselves to force GODLY changes. these are just some of the things wof do to comply with GOD'S HOLY nature and commands. speaking colossians and ephesians over ourselves is one of our favorite HOLY SPIRIT powered resources.
that is why we LOVE to make confessions. they are very much like an OT blessing that abraham isaac jacob joseph and others spoke over their children. we BLESS ourselves and change our behavior thoughts feelings with these methods. and they truly do work. that is why we talk about it soooo much.
There are mutliplied scores of times in the Bible that it says that God did something that most christians know is not in the character of the God we serve. If that is the only evidence we had, we would still know that God does not do such things, because we believe that God is good. However, the verses that state that God is good, often seem to contradict those places that say or imply that He does evil. For those who wish to remain faithful to the Word, one choice is to believe that God does both good and evil, but that the evil He does is for the greater good. But then, this flies in the face of Jesus statement that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. So what to do, what to do?My point is you have to have a balance in your understanding of Yah to see His loving nature AND His wrath on those that do evil.
Don't you think a loving Father would defend His children when others do evil to them or one child does evil to another?
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things
Le 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.
23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
26 And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
This is a wise statement. I said as much in another recent post.Whether Yah actually sends sickness, tribulation as punishment or you open the door to the enemy because of sin in your life that prevents Yah's protection, the outcome is the same. Sin has consequences. He told you 'not to touch the stove'.
This is where you lose me. WOF does not excuse sin at all. In fact, we are often accused of saying "You didn't get healed because you lack faith, or because you have sin in your life". This is very oversimplified, and innacurate, but it is something that we are often cirticized for.WoF is like putting on oven mitts so you can play in the fire.
WoF teaches we just overcome those consequences by faith in the grace and love of Yah instead of correcting the root cause.
WoF focuses on seeking the blessings, not seeking righteousness that brings blessings while denying His wrath. It removes accountability for your actions and focuses on what you SPEAK.
The wife doesn't tell the husband what to do.
He will send death to those that are harming His other children. Others learn by the example. You seem to forget, death is NOT the end. It is only the end of our test period. How you live your life determines your eternal position. Death just stops the opportunities to gain in spiritual growth and eternal rewards for a Christian. All death is a consequence of our sin. Even Yeshua's death was the consequence of our sins that He was carrying.Yikes! So according to you, God 'discilpines' people who are in sin and/or rebellion to Him by KILLING them? Isn't the purpose of discipline to teach someone, or more accurately, disciple them? It's going to be awfully hard to learn something from this alleged 'discipline' if you're dead.
Anyway, the Bible says that it is the goodness of God that draws men to repentance. I guess that's not in your Bible either.