WoF verses Non-WoF

[Simon Peter]

Here's another one:


Benny Hinn: In that service [Denver, Colorado] the Lord had me place blessings and cursing - you remember that.

Paul Crouch: I was there.

Benny Hinn: You know, these kinds of things I just don't like to do. I frankly don't enjoy hearing anybody do it. But Paul, there are people who want to destroy ministries, who would love to destroy TBN, destroy our ministry, destroy any ministry and every ministry they can.....We had certain people at one time after our ministry who would harass us and do all kinds of crazy things - went on for probably a year and a half - I was preaching in South Africa one day and Fred Roberts, who's an apostle said, "Why don't you speak judgment?" he said. I said "What are you talking about?" He said, "You are entitled now - because they blasphemed the Holy Spirit - to tell God what you want to see done."

Paul Crouch: Because they were attributing your works to the devil.

Benny Hinn: To the devil, exactly.

Paul Crouch: Just like they did Jesus.

Benny Hinn: You see, the second they attribute the work of God to Satan, we as believers step into - legally step into a place where we can ask God to stop them.

Paul Crouch: Amen, amen.
[Shows video from Denver]

Benny Hinn: Yes, Lord, I'll do it. I place a curse on every man and every woman that will stretch his hand against this anointing. I curse that man who dares to speak a word against this ministry. But any man and any woman that raises his or her hand in blessing towards this ministry, I bless that man. I bless that home! I bless that family.
...
Benny Hinn: Under this anointing, the words I speak cannot fall to the ground. Under this anointing, everything I say, happens.

(Praise The Lord, Trinity Broadcasting Network, September 10, 1999)


Here's a 27 second video of Hinn's curse:

Benny Hinn puts a curse on people - YouTube


Peace,
Simon

 

[Simon Peter]

Kenneth Copeland
In a taped message called “Why all are not healed”
says:
“Several people that I know had criticized and called that Faith bunch out of Tulsa a cult. And some of ‘em are dead right today in an early grave because of it, and there’s more than one of them got cancer.”


peace,
Simon

 

[Simon Peter]

Did you read the rest?

In the same book Kenneth Hagin says:

“When I left that church I left crying. I told the pastor in the next church where I went to hold a meeting, ‘That man will fall dead in the pulpit.’ And just a very short time after that he did. Why? Because he didn’t accept the message that God gave me to give him from the Holy Spirit.”

---


I guess now we know why WoF are so quick to say "touch not thou annointed"; they've been told by WoF leadership that they can be struck dead if they criticise them or don't accept their teachings!


peace,
Simon

 

[Yahu]

if ANYONE is praying something that contradicts GOD'S WORD.... or nature/character.... the power to bring it to pass would come from a source other than GOD.... so it would have to be some kind of demonic doing.... the exact heirarchy is not spelled out in scripture.... and the words and practices of witches would not be reliable enough to stand solidly on....

Actually there is a lot more information in scripture then you may realize. The pagan gods of antiquity are the major principalities. The top four principalities in the Canaanite pantheon are Molech, Ashtoreth, Baal and Asherah. They have several names/titles presented throughout scripture. For example Molech is Lucifer himself as well as the beast out of the earth in Revelation and Ashtoreth is the 'great harlot' of Revelation as well as the principality behind all Jezebel spirits. Baal, the beast ouf of the sea, is the anti-christ spirit, the 'prince of the powers of the air/2nd heaven'. These are the primary four spirits or 'four winds' involved in witchcraft. You have to know the reference and symbols of the different individuals.

The first three are the 'unholy trinity' with Asherah taking on a lesser role. There is plenty of information in scripture about these individuals, their doctrines and such. For example, ritual witchcraft is directly linked with Molech worship and is considered 'debasing thyself unto Sheol' in Isa 57.

That aspect of the enemy realm is a major topic of study of mine ever since I was in conflict with a major High Priestess of Ashtoreth. It is the same principality that Paul came up against, the great goddess Diana of Ephesus. One of her major functions is to destroy or discredit the prophets of Yah. She is one of two primary 'goddesses' of witchcraft and her cup is full of the blood of the saints. Queen Jezebel was the high priestess of Ashtoreth of her day as well as a witch.

A good example is Eze 16. It is a direct reference to the attributes of Ashtoreth and is about Jerusalem when it was under her influences. That passage directly paralleled the attributes of the high priestess I knew and nearly word for word on the consequences in her life.

There are hundreds of references that go right over most people's heads because they don't understand the context of the passages of the Old Testament. Here is an example:

De 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this.
28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?
31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?
35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

Who is the pagan 'rock' in whom they trusted? That rock is Asherah, the 'mother goddess', ie 'mother earth'.

Modern day witchcraft is directly linked with the ancient paganism and to the major principalities of hell.

 

[Yahu]

Most mature WoF people that I know seek understanding on spiritual warfare beyond that which is taught by WoF. I also think similar happens in other faith groups. There is really a good reason for this and it stems from our lack in these modern times of understanding or acceptence of the discipling method of training. You see teaching immature believers about battling the hosts of hell can very well lead to people going gung-ho into warfare that can easily back-fire on them. Bible colleges are not the place to learn about demon activity -on the job experience is.
What I have learned is that we first need to understand what Jesus did for us on the Cross. Nobody does this better than WoF. After this, half trained disciples need to go out where the action is and under the quidance of an elder and learn how the offence and defensive provisions of Calvary actually work in action. It is here that WoF teaching becomes the basis for our survival. Rather than murmuring against WoF I consider that these times are more richer for them than we would be without. When you see the sad state of countries are in (including USA) can we actually afford to be without the prosperity that the Lord (God) brings us and attack one of His vital messangers.

I agree that people without the required knowledge shouldn't go into heavy spiritual warfare like I did against high level spiritual forces but I have to disagree that WoF teaching is best suited for that.

I am NOT WoF but have the required knowledge and personal experience. I did not disciple under someone. I was on my own in the military away from home when I was called to stand against that type of situation. I ended up discipling others to stand up against witchcraft. My background was non-denominational non-WoF.

If you don't have a specific prophetic calling, I would recommend not getting involved at all on that type of thing. A fundamental denomination member has no business going up against witchcraft. The spiritual gifts are required in that kind of battle.

 

[dkbwarrior]

Here's another one:


Benny Hinn: In that service [Denver, Colorado] the Lord had me place blessings and cursing - you remember that.

Paul Crouch: I was there.

Benny Hinn: You know, these kinds of things I just don't like to do. I frankly don't enjoy hearing anybody do it. But Paul, there are people who want to destroy ministries, who would love to destroy TBN, destroy our ministry, destroy any ministry and every ministry they can.....We had certain people at one time after our ministry who would harass us and do all kinds of crazy things - went on for probably a year and a half - I was preaching in South Africa one day and Fred Roberts, who's an apostle said, "Why don't you speak judgment?" he said. I said "What are you talking about?" He said, "You are entitled now - because they blasphemed the Holy Spirit - to tell God what you want to see done."

Paul Crouch: Because they were attributing your works to the devil.

Benny Hinn: To the devil, exactly.

Paul Crouch: Just like they did Jesus.

Benny Hinn: You see, the second they attribute the work of God to Satan, we as believers step into - legally step into a place where we can ask God to stop them.

Paul Crouch: Amen, amen.
[Shows video from Denver]

Benny Hinn: Yes, Lord, I'll do it. I place a curse on every man and every woman that will stretch his hand against this anointing. I curse that man who dares to speak a word against this ministry. But any man and any woman that raises his or her hand in blessing towards this ministry, I bless that man. I bless that home! I bless that family.
...
Benny Hinn: Under this anointing, the words I speak cannot fall to the ground. Under this anointing, everything I say, happens.

(Praise The Lord, Trinity Broadcasting Network, September 10, 1999)

Peace,
Simon

Kenneth Copeland
In a taped message called “Why all are not healed”
says:
“Several people that I know had criticized and called that Faith bunch out of Tulsa a cult. And some of ‘em are dead right today in an early grave because of it, and there’s more than one of them got cancer.”


peace,
Simon

In the same book Kenneth Hagin says:

“When I left that church I left crying. I told the pastor in the next church where I went to hold a meeting, ‘That man will fall dead in the pulpit.’ And just a very short time after that he did. Why? Because he didn’t accept the message that God gave me to give him from the Holy Spirit.”

---


I guess now we know why WoF are so quick to say "touch not thou annointed"; they've been told by WoF leadership that they can be struck dead if they criticise them or don't accept their teachings!


peace,
Simon

These are three very different examples. The one of Hinn I disagree with totally, don't see any real support in scripture for that. But then Hinn has never really been WOF, in fact, used to be adamately anti-WOF, then softened his stance and became almost pro-WOF for awhile, then backpedaled again. He does hold many beliefs in common, as do many other groups, but that doesn't make him WOF.

The quote from Copeland wasn't him putting a curse on anyone, just a statement of fact that many who have opposed the work of God have had bad things happen that could well be a result of their opposition to the work of the Spirit. This is very well supported scripturally, and there are many examples in scripture of those that have come against the work of God paying a steep price for it in the flesh, in this natural world.

The quote from Hagin was of a prophetic word that God gave him to give to a specific individual. There is also much scriptural support for this in the Bible. Prophets often gave specific words to specific people about what was going to happen to them if they did not repent of specific deeds.

Peace...

 

[Yahu]

and one really awesome thing about GOD is that.... even if we are totally ignorant about things.... if we cling to HIM.... learn from HIM.... HE can actually lead us into HIS victory.... we don't HAVE to know stuff.... we just need to know HIM..... we can come through crazy stuff because HE leads us through....

HE is mighty to save.... ALWAYS....

Here I TOTALLY agree with you!

I didn't have any idea I was even in a conflict against witchcraft at first. I was just teaching biblical relationships to a girl I was courting. The coven didn't like the material I was teaching and the impact it was having. I was teaching things directly in opposition to their teaching and agenda. They laid trap after trap to destroy or discredit me. The Holy Spirit led me into side stepping those traps without even my knowledge that it was a trap. I just did what was RIGHT as I was led and it confounded the coven's efforts.

Here is an example. To destroy my witness and teaching, they tried seduction tactics to get me to fall into error. I even had 3 girls approach me in the BX and offered to put me up for a weekend at the local Embassy Suites and fulfill my wildest fantasies. They were shocked when I turned them down. They didn't think any man was capable of refusing. Once they realized my discernment of spirits was keeping me away from any woman involved in witchcraft, they started using love spells on girls that were friends trying to get me to fall into error.

Events like that happened over and over. Every trap they laid failed. I didn't even know that the events were being set in motion by their careful planning to destroy me. It wasn't until much later that I even knew a coven was involved. They were operating behind the scenes.

There is no way I could have side stepped all of the traps without the direct leading of the Holy Spirit. Each time a trap was avoided, the anger and hatred of the coven grew and the traps escalated into criminal activities. When those event escalated into sabotage of a military aircraft to strand my wife on TDY deployment, they crossed the line into treason. Because treason was involved, it triggered a joint Military, local police and FBI investigation into their criminal activity then ended up with all of those involved being prosecuted and exposing all of the evil they had committed via witchcraft. As a result, the military refused to recognize any pagan religion as a valid option for over a decade.

The scale of the impact that had was truly staggering. For example as a direct result of that conflict, California enacted the first anti-stalking law to protect women and all other states followed suite. And all I was trying to do was teach my fiance about biblical relationship building and courtship verses dating based on the Gothard style courtship in a worldly environment!

Isn't Yah amazing? To confound the enemy, all you have to do is follow His principals while operating in love and it draws people to Him.

 

[HolySpiritWOF2]

awesome testimony of GOD'S power....

 

[hislegacy]

These are three very different examples. The one of Hinn I disagree with totally, don't see any real support in scripture for that. But then Hinn has never really been WOF, in fact, used to be adamately anti-WOF, then softened his stance and became almost pro-WOF for awhile, then backpedaled again. He does hold many beliefs in common, as do many other groups, but that doesn't make him WOF.

The quote from Copeland wasn't him putting a curse on anyone, just a statement of fact that many who have opposed the work of God have had bad things happen that could well be a result of their opposition to the work of the Spirit. This is very well supported scripturally, and there are many examples in scripture of those that have come against the work of God paying a steep price for it in the flesh, in this natural world.

The quote from Hagin was of a prophetic word that God gave him to give to a specific individual. There is also much scriptural support for this in the Bible. Prophets often gave specific words to specific people about what was going to happen to them if they did not repent of specific deeds.

Peace...

Well said.

 

[Yahu]

hi Yahu.... in a short version of the previous post.... if you read the entire book of galatians.... SEVERAL times.... and see what GOD is saying in that book.... you will go a long way in understanding the faith perspective that WOF have about MOST things..... if you can't understand/embrace the concepts of the book of galatians.... as the rosetta stone to interpreting the ATONEMENT..... and new creation realities.... you might not be able to understand/agree with wof....

WOF don't try to earn anything.... because it was ALL gotten for us by JESUS..... thank GOD.... and the devil wants to trick us out of it.... and we resist him.... and dominate the circumstances.... by speaking HIS WORD in faith.... OVER the circumstances....

true core wof deal with sin this way too.... if we have trouble with addictions.... or any kind of sin.... we speak GOD'S WORD over ourselves....

we are not sinners trying to get righteous.... we ARE made.... permanently.... irrevocably.... righteous.... by believing what JESUS did.... and what GOD said about us....

we keep speaking to the circumstances.... even our own feelings.... thoughts.... desires.... actions.... behaviors.... attitudes..... etc..... to force them to line up with who we really are in CHRIST....

it works.... we walk it out daily.... it is unlike any other method of right living.... some wof may not know to do this.... everyone is at their own spot in their learning curve with the HOLY SPIRIT.... but our failures do NOT nulify the WORD.... speaking GOD'S WORD in faith nulifies our failures.... by TRULY transforming us....

Oh, I agree with about half of what WoF presents. I guess the core difference in my understanding is salvation doesn't deal with the consequences of continued sin in our lives. There is a big difference between salvation of the spirit and sanctification of the soul. We struggle with our flesh until the day we die. Where we give ground to that flesh carries consequences in the spiritual realms. Sanctification is dealing with our spiritual growth process to become more Christlike.

Yes, salvation pays the eternal price but not the physical price in our lives. I totally agree that our righteousness is as filthy rags and I do claim His righteousness. Yes, consciously speaking over the problems in our lives will help to drive away any hindering spirit that is the cause of those problems. But things like roots of bitterness have to be resolved or they will continually lead us into error. That error will bring consequences in our walk.

Now WoF is very advanced when compared with any fundamental denomination. It is a great step up from them.

Now I am very familiar with Galatians. I see it as an example on the conflict between extremist. One one side you have the 'bondage to law' camp, ie circumcision party. On the other side you have the 'greasy grace' (ie living in the flesh and claiming grace for all your sin). Paul takes the center position and exposes both extremes as doctrines of the enemy. That center position is to be 'led by the Spirit'. We are to take the law as our instructor to learn the nature of Yah and define sin while we have grace for where we fail. The Holy Spirit writes that law on our hearts.

You see this is a common tactic of the enemy. They take the position of Yah and divide it into two polar extremes like Calvinism verses Armenianism. Each extreme sees the error of the opposite extreme but is blind to their own error. Both extremes battle each other to cause strife and conflict while they both attack the actual position of Yah in the dead center. Different principalities spread their doctrines on those extremes. The anti-christ spirit is on the grace extreme while HaSatan is on the control via bondage side.

WoF tends to through out the law and consequences for violation of the law. They tend to fall on the 'grace' extreme. They don't understand the concepts presented in the Old Testament on the nature of Yah. They tend to concentrate on the New Testament. They lack foundation. All concepts presented in the new testament are derived from the Old Testament. To the new testament writers, only the old testament existed as scripture.

WoF has great knowledge of the new testament but IMO lacks understanding and wisdom in applying it without that Old Testament foundation. There is a big difference between those concepts. I like to describe the difference with the following example. A small child is told by momma not to touch the stove, it's hot. That child has 'knowledge' but lacks understanding so the child touches the stove. Now that child has 'understanding', the stove is HOT, it burns. Then wisdom can come. Momma said don't touch the stove. Maybe I should listen to momma, she loves me and doesn't want me to get burned.

IMO WoF knows that daddy loves them but doesn't bother to listen to His instructions because that is 'old covenant'. They get burned. They don't understand the nature of Yah. They are more influenced by the 'anti-christ' spirits doctrine to rely on grace and faith while ignoring the warnings and instructions and refusing to realize that He will punish His children that fall into error to correct them out of His love for us.

WoF cherry picks scriptures that support their extreme position but ignore others that help balance out the entire concept. Now individuals within the WoF movement can migrate towards the center but IMO the majority tend to be far left on the 'greasy grace' side. They lack understanding of the consequences of sin after salvation.

So my advice is 'be led by the Spirit' but make sure that spirit isn't the anti-christ spirit. To be able to determine that, I would suggest that they pray for discernment of spirits. That is a key gift in reaching spiritual maturity and overcoming false doctrines.

Personally I fall dead center of the 'grace' verse 'law' camp. I don't fall for extremism. That is why I get attacked by both extremes. I rely on His righteousness while I try to earn my own robe of righteousness as an eternal reward by becoming more Christlike in my walk. It isn't about 'self-righteous' but in spiritual growth that manifests as righeousness by following the instructions of our creator.

he that has an ear, let him hear what the spirit says to the assemblies.

 

[Simon Peter]

These are three very different examples.

I agree, they are different examples.

The one of Hinn I disagree with totally, don't see any real support in scripture for that. But then Hinn has never really been WOF, in fact, used to be adamately anti-WOF, then softened his stance and became almost pro-WOF for awhile, then backpedaled again. He does hold many beliefs in common, as do many other groups, but that doesn't make him WOF.

I'm glad you disagree with his curses, and I don't blame you for trying to distance Hinn from WoF, but the fact is that he is Prosperity Gospel/ WoF, and this is widely, almost universally, accepted.

Which parts of the CF WoF Statement of Faith do you think Hinn disagrees with?

The quote from Copeland wasn't him putting a curse on anyone, just a statement of fact that many who have opposed the work of God have had bad things happen that could well be a result of their opposition to the work of the Spirit. This is very well supported scripturally, and there are many examples in scripture of those that have come against the work of God paying a steep price for it in the flesh, in this natural world.

I didn't say Copeland was putting a curse on anyone. I was giving examples of WoF leaders using:

intimidation, threats and curses...

This is a clear example of a leader using a threat to intimidate.

The quote from Hagin was of a prophetic word that God gave him to give to a specific individual. There is also much scriptural support for this in the Bible. Prophets often gave specific words to specific people about what was going to happen to them if they did not repent of specific deeds.

Let's look at what Hagin said:


"If I give you a message for an individual, a church, or a pastor and they don’t accept it, you will not be responsible. They will be responsible. There will be ministers who don’t accept it and will fall dead in the pulpit."


Clearly, not just individuals, but whole churches should accept what Hagin says as 'thus says the Lord', or suffer potential consequences.

Another clear example of intimidation by threat.

Yes, Christians can die at the hand of God, Ananias and Sapphira are the classic example; but ironically, WoF believers (like you DKB ) usually say that God does not kill people, that God is a God of love peace and mercy and would never harm anyone!!!

peace,
Simon

 

[HolySpiritWOF2]

Oh, I agree with about half of what WoF presents. I guess the core difference in my understanding is salvation doesn't deal with the consequences of continued sin in our lives.

Yes, salvation pays the eternal price but not the physical price in our lives. I totally agree that our righteousness is as filthy rags and I do claim His righteousness. Yes, consciously speaking over the problems in our lives will help to drive away any hindering spirit that is the cause of those problems. But things like roots of bitterness have to be resolved or they will continually lead us into error. That error will bring consequences in our walk.

Now I am very familiar with Galatians. I see it as an example on the conflict between extremist. One one side you have the 'bondage to law' camp, ie circumcision party. On the other side you have the 'greasy grace' (ie living in the flesh and claiming grace for all your sin). Paul takes the center position and exposes both extremes as doctrines of the enemy. That center position is to be 'led by the Spirit'. We are to take the law as our instructor to learn the nature of Yah and define sin while we have grace for where we fail. The Holy Spirit writes that law on our hearts.

WoF tends to through out the law and consequences for violation of the law. They tend to fall on the 'grace' extreme. WoF cherry picks scriptures that support their extreme position but ignore others that help balance out the entire concept. Now individuals within the WoF movement can migrate towards the center but IMO the majority tend to be far left on the 'greasy grace' side. They lack understanding of the consequences of sin after salvation.

So my advice is 'be led by the Spirit' but make sure that spirit isn't the anti-christ spirit. To be able to determine that, I would suggest that they pray for discernment of spirits. That is a key gift in reaching spiritual maturity and overcoming false doctrines.

Personally I fall dead center of the 'grace' verse 'law' camp. I don't fall for extremism. That is why I get attacked by both extremes. I rely on His righteousness while I try to earn my own robe of righteousness as an eternal reward by becoming more Christlike in my walk. It isn't about 'self-righteous' but in spiritual growth that manifests as righeousness by following the instructions of our creator.

he that has an ear, let him hear what the spirit says to the assemblies.

i hear what you are saying... but look at romans and galatians and hebrews.... study those 3 books.... they clearly state that there is no middle ground.... there is righteousness by faith.... OR.... righteousness by the law.... you are trying to create a middle ground by mixing the old and the new....

JESUS said the new wine can NOT go into old wineskins.... because the old wineskin will break... and the new wine will run out.... HE also said that you can't cut a patch out of a new garment and patch up a hole in the old garment.... the new material will destroy the old garment when it pulls away... and you have destroyed the new garment when you cut it up to patch up the old....

JESUS also said that ANYONE who has tasted the old wine.... says the old wine is better.... and the new wine is bitter.....

it is very hard for people to let go of the old.... they are comfortable with the old.... they want to keep patching up the holes in it.... the old "tastes" better.... familiar.... but JESUS tried to warn us to.... just let go of the old.... and fully embrace the new.... no matter how hard or bittersweet that may seem....

it's hard to change.... but JESUS makes it clear that we must.... you keep trying to patch up the old.... you are NOT seeing the power of the NEW.... you think the NEW needs to be CONVERGED with the old.... but you just can't do it....

that is why many new creation believers don't study the old.... they don't know how to sew the 2 together.... they misunderstand..... the old has it's place.... but you can't create a new/old middle ground.....

righteousness by faith.... or righteousness by works.... that is the only 2 choices we are given....

and the blessings are attached solidly to righteousness.... without righteousness.... you can't have ANY of GOD'S blessings.... you can't pull those apart....

you are trying to sew the old and new covenant together.... which JESUS says not to....

and you are trying to pull/cut righteousness and blessings apart.... which JESUS welded together in the new.... and GOD welded together in the old....

and you keep slamming wof.... you talk about us like we are a bunch of sinners living unrighteously.... let's be fair...

there are just as many "pretender" christians in ANY/EVERY faith branch.... wof does not have more "pretenders" than other churches/denominations.... you are still villianizing us.... do you genuinely believe that i and my fellow woffers here at cf are more sinful than any other believers here on CF?... a lower quality of godliness than you or others?....

you are still holding something against us... you have a blind spot concerning us.... you seem to assume that... most or all of us are automatically compromisers... because we are wof.... you have some kind of unrelenting deep-rooted judgement against us wof.... it MIGHT hinder your objectivity in these discussions... if you de-personalize us... see us as lesser than you... you won't give what we say a proper regard/consideration....

 

[Yahu]

awesome testimony of GOD'S power....

Yes and I can't claim the credit. It was His leading while I was ignorant of what was going on. I was just in the right place at the right time as a willing vessel. Anyone can be used of Yah if they are open to the Spirit's leading.

You may never realize the impact you can have if you just allow the Spirit to lead you.

I have been accused of pride in the past for giving my testimony. Actually I am humbled by the awesome power of Yah that could do such things through me. If He can use a 'talking donkey' He could use even me with all my faults. I oppose putting any man on a pedestal and hate it when people have tried to do that to me. That will lead to pride. That just makes you a bigger target for the enemy to take you out at the knees so those that looked up to you lose faith.

I did fall into some error in that conflict. It is kind of hard to be super self-righteous and prideful when you have 4 illegitimate sons all fathered by during that conflict.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Hi Yahu,

I realize now this is YOUR thread, not for anybody to post in.
Sorry I read Wof, vs. Non-wof wrong. I thought it was okay to post here,
because of what you named it. - Too all these looooong posts are additionally comfuzling, yet you enjoy it, so have fun

 

[dkbwarrior]

I agree, they are different examples.

I'm glad you disagree with his curses, and I don't blame you for trying to distance Hinn from WoF, but the fact is that he is Prosperity Gospel/ WoF, and this is widely, almost universally, accepted.

Which parts of the CF WoF Statement of Faith do you think Hinn disagrees with?

What a silly comparison. That is like saying that I am a Baptist, because I agree with the Baptist statement of faith, which I do. But I am far from a Baptist. There are alot of groups that would agree with the WOF statement of faith, that are not WOF. Just to name a few, The Apostolic Movement, Latter Rain, Dominionist, etc. But they are not WOF.

I didn't say Copeland was putting a curse on anyone. I was giving examples of WoF leaders using:

This is a clear example of a leader using a threat to intimidate.

If you consider saying that many poeple that have opposed the work of God have suffered is threat and intimidation, then by your definition God uses threats and intimidation. The Bible is full os examples of exactly that.

Let's look at what Hagin said:


"If I give you a message for an individual, a church, or a pastor and they don’t accept it, you will not be responsible. They will be responsible. There will be ministers who don’t accept it and will fall dead in the pulpit."


Clearly, not just individuals, but whole churches should accept what Hagin says as 'thus says the Lord', or suffer potential consequences.

Another clear example of intimidation by threat.

Kenneth Hagin was quoting what God said to him during a vision regarding particular prophetic words that God may give him for individuals or groups when standing in the office of prophet. This is very biblical for the office of the prophet and has much precedence in the scriptures. He certainly wasn't talking about all things that he taught in general, or to doctrinal disputes. You would know that if you had read this quote in context, and hadn't just lifted the quote from an accuser of the brethren web site.

Yes, Christians can die at the hand of God, Ananias and Sapphira are the classic example; but ironically, WoF believers (like you DKB ) usually say that God does not kill people, that God is a God of love peace and mercy and would never harm anyone!!!

peace,
Simon

I wonder if you can ever read sometimes. Hagin didn't say anywhere that God said He would kill anyone. Nor did Copeland. People in this category are given over to satan for the destruction of the flesh according to 1 Corinthians 5. They bring judgement on themselves from the accuser of the brethren Himself, as they begin to reap what they sow. Those that live by the sword, die by the sword.

I might add, that the Bible doesn't say that God killed Annanias and Saphira either. That is simply you reading into the text what you believe, not what it actually says.

Peace...

 

[hislegacy]

I'm glad you disagree with his curses, and I don't blame you for trying to distance Hinn from WoF, but the fact is that he is Prosperity Gospel/ WoF, and this is widely, almost universally, accepted.


peace,
Simon

Widely, almost universally accepted where?

CF IS THE ONLY PLACE I HAVE SEEN IT.

example:

A number of people in our graduating class at Rhema thought Benny Hinn would be a good commencement speaker and independently wrote him and then asked the dean of Rhema.

Both the dean of Rhema AND Benny Hinn gave them the same reply. It really wouldn't be appropriate to have a minister who is not Word of Faith address the graduating class ata Word of Faith school.

I really think in some eyes, Word of Faith is a catch all for every ministry they don't agree with.

 

[hislegacy]

Let's look at what Hagin said:


"If I give you a message for an individual, a church, or a pastor and they don’t accept it, you will not be responsible. They will be responsible. There will be ministers who don’t accept it and will fall dead in the pulpit."


Clearly, not just individuals, but whole churches should accept what Hagin says as 'thus says the Lord', or suffer potential consequences.


peace,
Simon

Ok, so obviously you have not read the book.

Thanks for demonstrating that so clearly.

If you had read the book, or listened to the sermon it came from, you would not be able to honestly connect the sentence taken from two pages and make it say what you are saying.

 

[Yahu]

i hear what you are saying... but look at romans and galatians and hebrews.... study those 3 books.... they clearly state that there is no middle ground.... there is righteousness by faith.... OR.... righteousness by the law.... you are trying to create a middle ground by mixing the old and the new....

JESUS said the new wine can NOT go into old wineskins.... because the old wineskin will break... and the new wine will run out.... HE also said that you can't cut a patch out of a new garment and patch up a hole in the old garment.... the new material will destroy the old garment when it pulls away... and you have destroyed the new garment when you cut it up to patch up the old....

JESUS also said that ANYONE who has tasted the old wine.... says the old wine is better.... and the new wine is bitter.....

it is very hard for people to let go of the old.... they are comfortable with the old.... they want to keep patching up the holes in it.... the old "tastes" better.... familiar.... but JESUS tried to warn us to.... just let go of the old.... and fully embrace the new.... no matter how hard or bittersweet that may seem....

it's hard to change.... but JESUS makes it clear that we must.... you keep trying to patch up the old.... you are NOT seeing the power of the NEW.... you think the NEW needs to be CONVERGED with the old.... but you just can't do it....

that is why many new creation believers don't study the old.... they don't know how to sew the 2 together.... they misunderstand..... the old has it's place.... but you can't create a new/old middle ground.....

righteousness by faith.... or righteousness by works.... that is the only 2 choices we are given....

and the blessings are attached solidly to righteousness.... without righteousness.... you can't have ANY of GOD'S blessings.... you can't pull those apart....

you are trying to sew the old and new covenant together.... which JESUS says not to....

and you are trying to pull/cut righteousness and blessings apart.... which JESUS welded together in the new.... and GOD welded together in the old....

and you keep slamming wof.... you talk about us like we are a bunch of sinners living unrighteously.... let's be fair...

there are just as many "pretender" christians in ANY/EVERY faith branch.... wof does not have more "pretenders" than other churches/denominations.... you are still villianizing us.... do you genuinely believe that i and my fellow woffers here at cf are more sinful than any other believers here on CF?... a lower quality of godliness than you or others?....

you are still holding something against us... you have a blind spot concerning us.... you seem to assume that... most or all of us are automatically compromisers... because we are wof.... you have some kind of unrelenting deep-rooted judgement against us wof.... it MIGHT hinder your objectivity in these discussions... if you de-personalize us... see us as lesser than you... you won't have to give what we say a proper regard/consideration.... you can do that if you wish.... it is your option....

You miss my point. I am not suggesting superior righteousness or righteousness by works. The only 'WORK' I am suggesting is to follow the direction of the Holy Spirit within us by faith. That is TORAH. That is the personalized instruction for our life. You can't be justified for salvation by the law but righteousness is by following the spirit of the law because that is the nature of Yah and is what the Holy Spirit will guide us towards.

No, you don't have to convert to a Jew like many were preaching in the New Testament era, ie circumcision party. That is the debate running through the New Testament. It is about the requirements for salvation, not on how to live your life. You can't be saved by the law. There is the area you talk about having no middle ground, mixing the old with the new! It's about SALVATION. The law can't save, only the blood of Yeshua can.

The sacrificial system has been fulfilled and replaced but the nature of Yah is the same yesterday, today and forever. His nature never changes.

Yes, Yah is a loving god but He is also a righteous, just, vengeful and jealous god. Those that follow a different personification of Yah are following a false god IMO. The 'god of love' of the Old Testament was Baal-peor. Each of the pagan gods were a god of a specific attribute. Yes YHVH is a loving father but He will discipline His children. Too many people toss out the other aspect of His nature.

I have seen the vengeful wrath of Yah fall on the wicked. I have seen His justice. I follow the god of the Old Testament that brought the flood, that sent plagues upon His own people when they fell into sin, that sent His own people into captivity for sin. I follow a god that created the universe but will also bring destruction on the wicked.

Yes, our righteousness comes from Him but we have to reflect that righteousness through our actions by following His instruction by His guidance.

I am not vilifying WoF but just exposing how and why I disagree with their doctrine in debate. There can be many good and godly people in most any denomination. My wife's family were Catholic. They have now grown out of the error within the RCC and are non-denominational charismatics now. As you grow spiritually you overcome the error within your group, denomination and go on. Just like the Baptist are good at teaching the basics of salvation, WoF is good starting point to learn and understand our spiritual authority but a solid foundation is required in the Old Testament so you don't build a house on sand.

The reward goes to the overcomers of the error within their churches.
WoF doctrine is too narrow in its focus for my understanding.

 

[Yahu]

Hi Yahu,

I realize now this is YOUR thread, not for anybody to post in.
Sorry I read Wof, vs. Non-wof wrong. I thought it was okay to post here,
because of what you named it. - Too all these looooong posts are additionally comfuzling, yet you enjoy it, so have fun

You are welcome to inject your own comments all you want!

It isn't 'my thread' just a topic I wanted to bring up. When I first came to the board, I posted in the WoF area and got run off because what I posted was against the SoF. I had not read the SoF before I posted. So I started this thread in the debate area.

If you have any comment on WoF verses non-WoF doctrines, Fire away!

 

[sk8Joyful]

You are welcome to inject your own comments all you want!

It isn't 'my thread' just a topic I wanted to bring up. When I first came to the board, I posted in the WoF area
and got run off because what I posted was against the SoF.
I had not read the SoF before I posted. So I started this thread in the debate area.

If you have any comment on WoF verses non-WoF doctrines, Fire away!

Thanks for not 'running me off', CF's all too prevalent miserable heartless M.O.
In fact, other than as a business I question
why CF exists in the 1st. place, anybody hazard a guess?

Too over at 'wof' how many are RUN OFF ?

(except demons & Temple-defilers), Jesus never ran anybody off.
Do you know God/Jesus LOVED sharing with people His Good news.
Jesus LOVED answering *sincere honest heartfelt* questions, such as I (not arguing/debating) asked in wof.
Jesus just simply LOVES.
and
my question: Who in CF (aside my Sweetie, & Andre) is also like this?