WoF verses Non-WoF

[Simon Peter]

6 times

Perhaps I should go back and count how many times in this thread WoF believers have criticised me?

It will be a lot more than 6 times.

peace,
Simon

 

[charityagape]

What about accusing someone who calls down curses, threatens, intimidates? And besides, they were accusing people of criticising their ministry. So then it's OK for me to accuse them by your logic.

Is it OK to accuse an accuser but not a false teacher?

And once you start accusing an accuser, doesn't that make you an accuser? And so then it's OK to accuse you?

It sounds like you want different rules for yourself than for others. I assume you learned that from WoF leadership.

peace,
Simon

That's some dizzying logic and conclusions. For the sake of argument. If WOF was completely wrong and had taken the message God gave them, twisted it and was now following their own program instead of God's program and if those Christians that oppose WOF (who are Christians btw) were gods chosen and announted to carry on the true message of the gospel. If any of that were true. You would still be in the wrong. Even if kenneth Copeland himself told you personally that you would die of a stroke tomorrow because you called him a false teacher. You would still be wrong.



Do you understand. I'm not trying to be harsh or snarky. I'm not trying to cOnvert you to WOF theology. I'm hoping to help you see for the sake of your own blessing.

David truly was announted to displace king Saul. Saul was wrong and twisted on EVERY level. He tried to kill David over and over again. But David honored God and did not take Saul's life even when he could have.


It is simply not your place, Simon. This vitriol you have is simply not God's plan for you, Simon. He has a much better, more productive and certainly more positive plan for you.

Peace.

 

[dkbwarrior]

What is the WoF stand on eternal security verses 'loss of salvation'?

wof had a discussion about that in our forum once. about what we CF wof believed. and what our respected wof teachers believed.

i will try to find that thread.

it was an excellent discussion on osas vs losing your salvation.

we also had a discussion on born again JESUS.

there are some topics we are still discussing amongst ourselves.

wof is growing in a lot of things.

we are thankful for what we clearly understand. grace, faith, speaking the WORD, authority, dominion, the blessings of GOD, redeemed from the curse, GOD is ALWAYS good, the devil is always bad, etc.

our sof is the things we have settled but there is still much more to settle as we diligently and deeply study the WORD.

Agreed. However, I would note that WOF is not a denomination, it is a movement, much like the Charismatic movement before it. And like the Charismatic movement it is not monolithic, and crosses denominational lines.

This means that there are WOF people in nearly all denominations. Therefore they can have and often do have differing doctrinal beliefs on a great variety of issues outside of the core WOF principles. In our statement of faith, we tried to keep the statement focused on those core principles that most WOF have in common, or share. That is not to say, that some WOF may disagree slightly with some of them, but by and large, it uncapsulates well, (I believe), the main stream of WOF belief.

However, issues such as OSAS, predestination, and others do not necessarily have definitive core WOF stances.

Peace...

 

[probinson]

For me personally, the reason I call myself "WoF" is not because of what Hagin, or Copeland, or anyone else says. It's because of one simple Truth that is at the core of everything I believe and can be summed up in 2 simple sentences;

God is good.
Satan is bad.
​

This is an incredibly simple revelation that I believe much of the church lacks. While the WoF movement has its flaws (as does every movement), this is one Truth that is absolutely rooted in the movement.

Now inevitably, someone will be along shortly to tell me that "good" doesn't necessarily mean "good", at least not the way any rational person would think when they think of the word "good". These are people that conclude because something "good" results from a "bad" thing, the "bad" thing must have been God's doing.

For example, I once heard a testimony where this man stood up and thanked God for making him wreck his car. His reasoning? Because while he was in the hospital after the accident, he witnessed to the man in the bed next to him and that guy got saved.

Now PRAISE GOD that man was able to witness to a guy who accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior. But I find it theologically troubling that someone would thank God for making them wreck their car, as if God reached down from heaven and pushed the car off the road. Instead, I believe that God took what was meant for evil (a car accident) and turned it for good (an opportunity for salvation).

In other sects of Christianity, it seems to me like people want to make God the author of their problems and suffering. Indeed, I've had people on this very forum tell me plainly that they believe God is the author of the evil in their lives. I have no idea why people would find comfort in a belief that. To me, that's a bit like a husband who beats his wife and then asks her to come to him for comfort. To the contrary, I believe God is an ever-present HELP in time of need.

I believe that because of this fallen world and because of our own choices and the choices of others, we will have struggles and suffering. Jesus told us bluntly that in this world, we would have troubles of all kinds. But in the next breath, He said, "Take heart, for I have overcome the world!" That's the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel that I believe has been perverted in much of Christianity.

That is why I call myself "WoF". It's not because I agree with Hagin and Copeland, or even really care what they have to say. It's not because of the SoF in the WoF forum (which I have minor issues with). It's because I believe that God is good and the devil is bad. Period.

 

[HolySpiritWOF2]

powerful post probinson.

 

[Simon Peter]

David truly was announted to displace king Saul. Saul was wrong and twisted on EVERY level. He tried to kill David over and over again. But David honored God and did not take Saul's life even when he could have.

I'm not trying to kill anyone, I'm just pointing out the curses and threats that prosperty gospel/WoF leaders have used.

In fact the prosperty gospel/WoF leaders are the ones who are using death threats, not me.

It is simply not your place, Simon. This vitriol you have is simply not God's plan for you, Simon. He has a much better, more productive and certainly more positive plan for you.

But it is God's plan for you, and for prosperty gospel/WoF leaders (talking of vitriol)?

Besides, I'm the one who's only posted 1,900 CF posts in 8 years remember, I have a productive life outside of CF, and I have a long and remarkable history of God's hand on my life.

Pointing out the threats and intimidation of WoF leaders is a minor part of my life.


peace,
Simon

 

[charityagape]

K

 

[charityagape]

Missed the point completely, but okay.

 

[Yahu]

For me personally, the reason I call myself "WoF" is not because of what Hagin, or Copeland, or anyone else says. It's because of one simple Truth that is at the core of everything I believe and can be summed up in 2 simple sentences;

God is good.
Satan is bad.
​

This is an incredibly simple revelation that I believe much of the church lacks. While the WoF movement has its flaws (as does every movement), this is one Truth that is absolutely rooted in the movement.

Now inevitably, someone will be along shortly to tell me that "good" doesn't necessarily mean "good", at least not the way any rational person would think when they think of the word "good". These are people that conclude because something "good" results from a "bad" thing, the "bad" thing must have been God's doing.

For example, I once heard a testimony where this man stood up and thanked God for making him wreck his car. His reasoning? Because while he was in the hospital after the accident, he witnessed to the man in the bed next to him and that guy got saved.

Now PRAISE GOD that man was able to witness to a guy who accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior. But I find it theologically troubling that someone would thank God for making them wreck their car, as if God reached down from heaven and pushed the car off the road. Instead, I believe that God took what was meant for evil (a car accident) and turned it for good (an opportunity for salvation).

In other sects of Christianity, it seems to me like people want to make God the author of their problems and suffering. Indeed, I've had people on this very forum tell me plainly that they believe God is the author of the evil in their lives. I have no idea why people would find comfort in a belief that. To me, that's a bit like a husband who beats his wife and then asks her to come to him for comfort. To the contrary, I believe God is an ever-present HELP in time of need.

I believe that because of this fallen world and because of our own choices and the choices of others, we will have struggles and suffering. Jesus told us bluntly that in this world, we would have troubles of all kinds. But in the next breath, He said, "Take heart, for I have overcome the world!" That's the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel that I believe has been perverted in much of Christianity.

That is why I call myself "WoF". It's not because I agree with Hagin and Copeland, or even really care what they have to say. It's not because of the SoF in the WoF forum (which I have minor issues with). It's because I believe that God is good and the devil is bad. Period.

Is the Old Testament not even in your bible?

What righteous father does not punish rebellious children? You don't equate Yah to a abusive husband, but to a correcting Father. You just plain don't understand the Wrath of Yah. If you don't correct and punish your children, I fear for how they will turn out.

22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.
23 If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry;
24 And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.


De 9:7 Remember, and forget not, how thou provokedst the LORD thy God to wrath in the wilderness: from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the LORD.

De 9:8 Also in Horeb ye provoked the LORD to wrath, so that the LORD was angry with you to have destroyed you.

2Ch 30:8 Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you.

2Ch 34:21 Go, enquire of the LORD for me, and for them that are left in Israel and in Judah, concerning the words of the book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is poured out upon us, because our fathers have not kept the word of the LORD, to do after all that is written in this book.

It is not Satan that destroys the world during the tribulation, it is the Wrath of Yah that falls on the wickedness of man. His wrath is against those that disobey His instructions.

Satan can bring blessings to those that do his will. Yah will bring correction, punishment and even death against those that go against His instruction. Who is the source of your 'revelation'?

 

[hislegacy]

I'm not trying to kill anyone, I'm just pointing out the curses and threats that prosperty gospel/WoF leaders have used.

In fact the prosperty gospel/WoF leaders are the ones who are using death threats, not me.


peace,
Simon

7 times

 

[hislegacy]

Perhaps I should go back and count how many times in this thread WoF believers have criticised me?

It will be a lot more than 6 times.

peace,
Simon

There is a difference between criticizing and repeating something that has been shown to be false. (bearing false witness)

You're free to criticize the Word of Faith movement all you like. And it's evidence that it is something you enjoy - that's all well and good, if that is how you get your jollies.

But When four people who have close to 100 years experience with the Word of Faith have unanimously shown you the accusations are false, and you keep saying them over and over. Well that is just not righteous.

Combine that with the FACT you don't know who is and is not a Word of Faith minister, well just ramble on my friend.

I'd pray God's best for you, but your doctrine wouldn't accept it, so I'll pray God's will be done in your life. God loves you, and believe it or not, so do I.

 

[HolySpiritWOF2]

Is the Old Testament not even in your bible?

What righteous father does not punish rebellious children? You don't equate Yah to a abusive husband, but to a correcting Father. You just plain don't understand the Wrath of Yah. If you don't correct and punish your children, I fear for how they will turn out.

22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.
23 If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry;
24 And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.


De 9:7 Remember, and forget not, how thou provokedst the LORD thy God to wrath in the wilderness: from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the LORD.

De 9:8 Also in Horeb ye provoked the LORD to wrath, so that the LORD was angry with you to have destroyed you.

2Ch 30:8 Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you.

2Ch 34:21 Go, enquire of the LORD for me, and for them that are left in Israel and in Judah, concerning the words of the book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is poured out upon us, because our fathers have not kept the word of the LORD, to do after all that is written in this book.

It is not Satan that destroys the world during the tribulation, it is the Wrath of Yah that falls on the wickedness of man. His wrath is against those that disobey His instructions.

Satan can bring blessings to those that do his will. Yah will bring correction, punishment and even death against those that go against His instruction. Who is the source of your 'revelation'?

if we disciple our children the same way the LORD discipled HIS 12, we wouldn't need to be punishing. some people have a harsh method of training children. they give strict rules and punish disobedience. but they see their children as little people that need to be trained that way.

other people train their children with instruction training correction nurture. they correct a child the way a pilot corrects his course. he "steers" it on course. they see children as precious gifts from GOD.

other people don't train their children at all. no nurture or instruction or correction. they abandon and neglect their children. and we all suffer the consequences of those kind of children. because when the untrained undisciplined child grows up into an undisciplined untrained adult they cause trouble in society one way or another. some of the trouble they cause can be quite serious.

also some children that are "strongly" disciplined can grow up bitter and damaged and then take out their anger and frustration on society too.

the new creation believer has the HOLY SPIRIT permanently dwelling inside. HIS job is to train us. and HE uses the same wonderful training methods JESUS used with HIS disciples - love, truth, verbal correction, instruction, etc.

JESUS never needed to punish HIS disciples because HE trained them very well. and i think we would all have to admit that NONE of them were shining examples of a good student. JESUS had to correct them a lot. but HIS training for even difficult people like HIS disciples WORKED well.

likewise the HOLY SPIRIT is VERY good at HIS job. that is why scripture says that HE WHO began a good work in us WILL complete it. WOF believe that JESUS is GOD'S truest example of HIS will and ways. the way JESUS trained up disciples is the way the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD trains us.

the old testament believers did NOT have the HOLY SPIRIT dwelling inside them. ALL they had was the WORD of GOD that THEY had to live out by their own human ability - their flesh ability. and we see the trouble they had living it out. they had consequences galor, and it still couldn't keep many of them on track.

that is why the HOLY SPIRIT living inside AND the WORD of GOD mixed with grace and faith works waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than what the OT believers had. that is one reason wof are soooo happy. the training we undergo is love of GOD based. we study the NT mostly because that is where the new and living way to learn and grow and live and talk is found. the OT only prophecies these NT better ways.

when NT believers study the OT too much they get confused. they start trying to live it out the way it is written. they forget what manner of man they are - a HOLY SPIRIT indwelt believer with tremendous HOLY SPIRIT ability available to live out a life GREATLY pleasing to GOD.

when wof struggle with a stubborn anti-BIBLE anti-holy behavior or thought or feeling - we go to war using the WORD of GOD. we speak to that mountain of un-godliness and FORCE it to change. wof have learned that wrestling with our own flesh and blood is an unprofitable losing battle. what was started by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT M U S T be lived out and completed by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT.

wof also use the WORD of GOD to call in a GODLY behavior. if we want to be more loving or patient or wise we speak GOD'S WORD over ourselves to force GODLY changes. these are just some of the things wof do to comply with GOD'S HOLY nature and commands. (kinda like david speaking to his soul and telling it to praise GOD.) speaking colossians and ephesians over ourselves is one of our favorite HOLY SPIRIT powered resources.

that is why we LOVE to make confessions. they are very much like an OT blessing that abraham isaac jacob joseph and others spoke over their children. we BLESS ourselves and change our behavior thoughts feelings with these methods. and they truly do work. that is why we talk about it soooo much.

 

[probinson]

Is the Old Testament not even in your bible?

Sure it is.

Is the New Testament and the good news of how Jesus Christ took our punishment even in your Bible? Apparently not.

 

[probinson]

Yah will bring correction, punishment and even death against those that go against His instruction.

Yikes! So according to you, God 'discilpines' people who are in sin and/or rebellion to Him by KILLING them? Isn't the purpose of discipline to teach someone, or more accurately, disciple them? It's going to be awfully hard to learn something from this alleged 'discipline' if you're dead.

Anyway, the Bible says that it is the goodness of God that draws men to repentance. I guess that's not in your Bible either.

 

[Simon Peter]

Ok, so obviously you have not read the book.

Thanks for demonstrating that so clearly.

If you had read the book, or listened to the sermon it came from, you would not be able to honestly connect the sentence taken from two pages and make it say what you are saying.

Ok, you have not read the book and will not. And you don't care if your cut and paste quotes are in context or not.

Here's the context (pages 108-110):

When the Lord dealt with me concerning the prophet's
ministry, He said that if a church wouldn't accept my ministry,
I should go my way and shake the dust off my feet against them, so to speak.
He told me time is short, and His work must be done quickly in these last days.

Quoting First Peter 4 Jesus said, "... judgment must begin at
the house of God ... And if the righteous scarcely be saved,
where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" (vv. 17,18).

He went on to say that if a church wouldn't accept the
ministry of a prophet, they wouldn't accept His Word either. He
added that if a pastor wouldn't accept this message, judgment
would come upon him.

The Lord said that if He gave me a message or a revelation
for a pastor, I should deliver it; and if He gave me a message for
a church or an individual, I should deliver it. Some do not
believe that personal prophecy is scriptural. They do not believe
that a prophet may have a message for an individual. This is
what Luke has to say, however, in Acts 21:

ACTS 21:8-11
8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company
departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into
the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the
seven; and abode with him.
9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which
did prophesy.
10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down
from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle,
and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the
Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man
that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the
hands of the Gentiles.

One phase of the prophet's ministry is that he speaks for
God. In the Scripture quoted above, Agabus didn't tell Paul not
to go to Jerusalem; he merely told him what would happen there,
and it came to pass.

By the word of wisdom operating through prophecy, a
prophet many times has the ability to help people and to prepare
them for things that are ahead. Many times God has shown me
things along this line that have blessed and helped individuals.

We need this kind of manifestation of the Spirit today.

The Lord said to me, "If I give you a message for an
individual, a church, or a pastor, and they don't accept it, you
will not be responsible. They will be responsible. There will be
ministers who won't accept it and who will fall dead in the pulpit."

I say this with reluctance, but this actually happened in one
place where I preached. Two weeks from the day I closed the
meeting, the pastor fell dead in the pulpit. When I left that church, I left crying.

I told the pastor in the next church where I went to hold a
meeting, "That man will fall dead in the pulpit." And just a short
time later he did. Why? Because he didn't accept the message
God's Spirit gave me to give him.

Some people think we don't need a prophet's ministry in the
New Testament Dispensation because we all have the Holy
Spirit (we have a measure of the Holy Spirit when we are born
again).
---



The context is clearly 'prophecy'. If an individual, church or pastor does not accept Hagin's ministry, and later says his prophetic ministry, they will come under judgment and may fall dead.

Yikes! So according to you, God 'discilpines' people who are in sin and/or rebellion to Him by KILLING them? Isn't the purpose of discipline to teach someone, or more accurately, disciple them? It's going to be awfully hard to learn something from this alleged 'discipline' if you're dead.

peace,
Simon

 

[hislegacy]

OK, so since English is your first language - Let's use your quote:

By the word of wisdom operating through prophecy, a
prophet many times has the ability to help people and to prepare
them for things that are ahead. Many times God has shown me
things along this line that have blessed and helped individuals.

We need this kind of manifestation of the Spirit today.

The Lord said to me,

Notice that the author is sharing what he believes God spoke to him.

"If I give you a message for an individual, a church, or a pastor, and they don't accept it, you will not be responsible.

IOW the only thing he was to do is give the message. He wasn't responsible for anything else but delivery

They will be responsible. There will be
ministers who won't accept it and who will fall dead in the pulpit."

That is what he heard God say -

I say this with reluctance, but this actually happened in one
place where I preached. Two weeks from the day I closed the
meeting, the pastor fell dead in the pulpit. When I left that church, I left crying.

Gee, exactly what he heard God say would happen - did in fact happen.

I told the pastor in the next church where I went to hold a
meeting, "That man will fall dead in the pulpit." And just a short
time later he did. Why? Because he didn't accept the message
God's Spirit gave me to give him.

Not because Hagin placed a curse, but because the man didn't heed the warning from the Spirit of God.

There is no place there that Hagin said that he cursed the man for the reasons you've stated seven times now.

Ummm. do you not have the OT in your Bible?

ever read about the prophet warning the King to hear what God was saying and when the King repented God gave him 15 more years to live.

or perhaps reading Daniel 5 would help you.

Daniel didn't curse the King - he warned him. That is what Hagin was talking about.

Hope that helps you see the truth for what it is and helps you to stop bearing false witness.

 

[Yahu]

if we disciple our children the same way the LORD discipled HIS 12, we wouldn't need to be punishing. some people have a harsh method of training children. they give strict rules and punish disobedience. but they see their children as little people that need to be trained that way.

other people train their children with instruction training correction nurture. they correct a child the way a pilot corrects his course. he "steers" it on course. they see children as precious gifts from GOD.

other people don't train their children at all. no nurture or instruction or correction. they abandon and neglect their children. and we all suffer the consequences of those kind of children. because when the untrained undisciplined child grows up into an undisciplined untrained adult they cause trouble in society one way or another. some of the trouble they cause can be quite serious.

also some children that are "strongly" disciplined can grow up bitter and damaged and then take out their anger and frustration on society too.

the new creation believer has the HOLY SPIRIT permanently dwelling inside. HIS job is to train us. and HE uses the same wonderful training methods JESUS used with HIS disciples - love, truth, verbal correction, instruction, etc.

JESUS never needed to punish HIS disciples because HE trained them very well. and i think we would all have to admit that NONE of them were shining examples of a good student. JESUS had to correct them a lot. but HIS training for even difficult people like HIS disciples WORKED well.

likewise the HOLY SPIRIT is VERY good at HIS job. that is why scripture says that HE WHO began a good work in us WILL complete it. WOF believe that JESUS is GOD'S truest example of HIS will and ways. the way JESUS trained up disciples is the way the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD trains us.

the old testament believers did NOT have the HOLY SPIRIT dwelling inside them. ALL they had was the WORD of GOD that THEY had to live out by their own human ability - their flesh ability. and we see the trouble they had living it out. they had consequences galor, and it still couldn't keep many of them on track.

that is why the HOLY SPIRIT living inside AND the WORD of GOD mixed with grace and faith works waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than what the OT believers had. that is one reason wof are soooo happy. the training we undergo is love of GOD based. we study the NT mostly because that is where the new and living way to learn and grow and live and talk is found. the OT only prophecies these NT better ways.

when NT believers study the OT too much they get confused. they start trying to live it out the way it is written. they forget what manner of man they are - a HOLY SPIRIT indwelt believer with tremendous HOLY SPIRIT ability available to live out a life GREATLY pleasing to GOD.

when wof struggle with a stubborn anti-BIBLE anti-holy behavior or thought or feeling - we go to war using the WORD of GOD. we speak to that mountain of un-godliness and FORCE it to change. wof have learned that wrestling with our own flesh and blood is an unprofitable losing battle. what was started by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT M U S T be lived out and completed by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT.

wof also use the WORD of GOD to call in a GODLY behavior. if we want to be more loving or patient or wise we speak GOD'S WORD over ourselves to force GODLY changes. these are just some of the things wof do to comply with GOD'S HOLY nature and commands. speaking colossians and ephesians over ourselves is one of our favorite HOLY SPIRIT powered resources.

that is why we LOVE to make confessions. they are very much like an OT blessing that abraham isaac jacob joseph and others spoke over their children. we BLESS ourselves and change our behavior thoughts feelings with these methods. and they truly do work. that is why we talk about it soooo much.

My point is you have to have a balance in your understanding of Yah to see His loving nature AND His wrath on those that do evil.

Don't you think a loving Father would defend His children when others do evil to them or one child does evil to another?

Here is an example. My wife was stalked, drugged, kidnapped, tormented, gang raped and pregnant from that rape. If you think that Yah's wrath didn't fall on those involve, you best rethink your doctrine. Many of the individuals involved are dead now.

Yes, there is the difference between having the Holy Spirit now and not in the old testament but the nature of Yah hasn't changed one bit. He is still the god that sent the flood. He is still the god that sent the plagues on Egypt. He is still the god that sent plagues onto His own people for disobedience. He is a loving god to those that follow His ways. He is a jealous god towards those that follow a false god. He is a Just god that will have His vengeance fall on those that hurt His children. He is a Righteous god that will not abide by or condone unrighteous acts. You can't separate out one aspect of His nature and say I follow this god of 'xxxx'. He has all the attributes.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

Le 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.
23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
26 And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.


Now that applies even today if you walk contrary to the leading of the Holy Spirit in your life.

I have already posted what Yeshua says He will do to a Jezebel and her followers. That is new testament and it is individuals IN THE CHURCH! Being cast into 'great tribulation' is NOT gentle correction by words alone.

Whether Yah actually sends sickness, tribulation as punishment or you open the door to the enemy because of sin in your life that prevents Yah's protection, the outcome is the same. Sin has consequences. He told you 'not to touch the stove'. WoF is like putting on oven mitts so you can play in the fire.

WoF teaches we just overcome those consequences by faith in the grace and love of Yah instead of correcting the root cause.

WoF focuses on seeking the blessings, not seeking righteousness that brings blessings while denying His wrath. It removes accountability for your actions and focuses on what you SPEAK.

The potshard doesn't tell the potter what to do! The wife doesn't tell the husband what to do. The child doesn't tell the parent what to do.

If I was Yah and typical WoF followers were my wife. I would divorce her if she wouldn't listen to instruction while demanding I do everything for her.

 

[dkbwarrior]

My point is you have to have a balance in your understanding of Yah to see His loving nature AND His wrath on those that do evil.

Don't you think a loving Father would defend His children when others do evil to them or one child does evil to another?


7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

Le 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.
23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
26 And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.

There are mutliplied scores of times in the Bible that it says that God did something that most christians know is not in the character of the God we serve. If that is the only evidence we had, we would still know that God does not do such things, because we believe that God is good. However, the verses that state that God is good, often seem to contradict those places that say or imply that He does evil. For those who wish to remain faithful to the Word, one choice is to believe that God does both good and evil, but that the evil He does is for the greater good. But then, this flies in the face of Jesus statement that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. So what to do, what to do?

Yet the solution is simple, really. The Bible give us the answer, if we search, if we seek him with all of our hearts. I am going to give you a key, I am going to reveal to you a mystery. Do with it what you will.

The Bible says that God killed the firstborn in Egypt, does it not?

29And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote
all the firstborn in the land of Egypt,
from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne
unto the firstborn of the captive
that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
-Exodus 12:29​

But the obvious interpretation of that cannot be all of the truth, because another passage tells us that the destroyer killed the firstborn:

23For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians;
and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts,
the LORD will pass over the door,
and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
-Exodus 12:23​

Now, we know that the destroyer is not God. Jesus said that the thief is the destroyer, in John 10:10, who would be satan.

Further more, (and this is an even more clear example), the Bible says that the Lord moved David to number Isreal:

1And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
2For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba,
and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.
-2 Samuel 24:1-2​

But again, the obvious interpretation of that cannot be all of the truth, because the account in Chronicles of this same event tells us that satan moved David:

1And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
2And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan;
and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.
-1 Chronicles 21:1-2​

Now we know that satan is not God. But it is interesting to note here that satan is called the anger of the Lord. This is womething that we need to keep in mind when we read of the anger or the wrath of God. Whatever you do with your theology, it has to give account of these passages.

It is obvious to me that satan is the enforcer of death. When the Bible says that God did some act of evil, it is because God takes direct responsibilty for these things, as they were all within the allowable parameters of His creation when He gave creatures within it free-will. In other words, they are within His permissive will. But He is not the one responsible for the individual events. We are, or satan and his hosts are. Satan is an angel of the Lord. He may be a fallen one, but the angel of the Lord he still is.

I know you are not doing it on purpose, but the interpretation that you are giving makes God the enforcer of evil. And He is not. If He was the enforcer of evil, then that would make Him evil. In addition, the verses I gave above show clearly that when the Bible says that God did evil, that it really means that satan did evil under the permissive will of God. This brings all statements in the Bible of this kind into a different light, as they all have to be interpreted in this context. And I do not serve an evil God. I serve a good God.

Peace...

 

[dkbwarrior]

Whether Yah actually sends sickness, tribulation as punishment or you open the door to the enemy because of sin in your life that prevents Yah's protection, the outcome is the same. Sin has consequences. He told you 'not to touch the stove'.

This is a wise statement. I said as much in another recent post.

WoF is like putting on oven mitts so you can play in the fire.

WoF teaches we just overcome those consequences by faith in the grace and love of Yah instead of correcting the root cause.

WoF focuses on seeking the blessings, not seeking righteousness that brings blessings while denying His wrath. It removes accountability for your actions and focuses on what you SPEAK.

This is where you lose me. WOF does not excuse sin at all. In fact, we are often accused of saying "You didn't get healed because you lack faith, or because you have sin in your life". This is very oversimplified, and innacurate, but it is something that we are often cirticized for.

So for you to say that WOF thinks that one can receive blessing by faith, without dealing with sin in our lives first, is simply a misunderstanding of the message I think. Because it is far from the truth. Now to be fair, it isn't talked about alot in WOF circles, because it is assumed that everyone already understands that if one is walking in sin, they cannot operate in faith. Mabey this should be emphasized more, I don't know, but that is beside the point. I can assure you that your assessment of this is simply a misunderstanding.

Finally, WOF doesn't believe that we can simply SPEAK things and have them happen. We believe that we can BELIEVE things, (specifically the promises of God), and have them happen, primarily through SPEAKING words. But SPEAKING words without BELIEVING them wont get you anywhere.

The problem with sin, is that it brings condemnation, and therefore blocks one from believing:

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments,
and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
-1 John 3:20-22

This is a primary tenet of WOF. As you said above, and I agree, it really doesn't matter if you believe it is the wrath of God, or being turned over to satan, the effect is the same. We agree on the outcome, mabey just not on the mechanics.

The wife doesn't tell the husband what to do.

How long have you been married?

Peace...

 

[Yahu]

Yikes! So according to you, God 'discilpines' people who are in sin and/or rebellion to Him by KILLING them? Isn't the purpose of discipline to teach someone, or more accurately, disciple them? It's going to be awfully hard to learn something from this alleged 'discipline' if you're dead.

Anyway, the Bible says that it is the goodness of God that draws men to repentance. I guess that's not in your Bible either.

He will send death to those that are harming His other children. Others learn by the example. You seem to forget, death is NOT the end. It is only the end of our test period. How you live your life determines your eternal position. Death just stops the opportunities to gain in spiritual growth and eternal rewards for a Christian. All death is a consequence of our sin. Even Yeshua's death was the consequence of our sins that He was carrying.

If you stopping growing and are doing great harm to others, why wouldn't you expect death? So no WoF follower ever dies?

My elder sister-in-law spent two years dying of cancer while hundreds prayed for her healing. She was also a super self-righteous meddlesome busy body that did great harm to my life and many others. She refused to even acknowledge any error on her part. She died at the age of 52 while her family claimed that God loved her so much he called her home early. What ridiculous nonsense!

I don't care how much faith you have in Yah's grace if you don't follow the Holy Spirit because you have been side tracked into false doctrine. If you are harming others or leading them into error, expect consequences. Yah has the final authority over life and death.