Why will every knee bow?

[razeontherock]

So are you saying anyone who believes Jesus is the christ will behave morally?

Not at all. You're misunderstanding (or misusing) the word and concept. Maybe it's just due to the modern usage of the words? "Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ" is a loaded phrase, and you don't seem to be doing it justice here. (Not that I can blame you; it's complex, and not usually very well taught)

There are Gang members who murder via drive-by shootings who believe in your God.

I have to suspect you think you're making some point here? Somebody else beat you to it by quite a few years:

"the devils also believe, and tremble." (James 2:19)

Let's see if we can put the pieces together to help you see what you're missing ...

No I am saying providing proof that Jesus is lord will not force anyone to worship Jesus as lord; they will still have the option to reject him.

Not according to the passage you cite in your thread title. (This really is the point of that verse, which is what you started this thread to discover)

If God doesn't have a problem with people worshiping other Gods, then I guess my point would be mute.

The word is "moot," but anyway; just because someone grows up in and adheres to another religion or belief system, doesn't mean that God automatically perceives that person as worshiping a different god, or an idol.

God looks on the heart.

That's one of the more powerful and profound points you'll find in the Bible, IMHO.

Now a person that hears the Truth about Jesus and forsakes Him to follow something else, be it religious or not? I think that would qualify for what you're getting at here.

 

[Hupomone10]

Ken,

You have had much feedback already about why God doesn't reveal Himself from heaven now. If that isn't sufficient to help you resolve this, it may be that it isn't going to be resolved for whatever reason.

Either our responses, although good enough for us individually, aren't good enough for you, or else you may not realize that something is biasing you against what is being said and blinding you to it because of the perceived enormity of this question in your own mind.

I remember an AA meeting one time where a lady who was still drinking and using drugs, came in and asked "if God is real, where is He; I've prayed to him with no results." Various people around the room gave their experience and perspective, but she kept over and over repeating the same question "where is He?" as though the very question itself was an answer of sorts, and apparently oblivious to all that was said.

It would seem that this question is exactly that for you. I'm not saying that you're oblivious to what is being said, but that maybe this one issue looms so big that it may be hard to hear and objectively evaluate what others are saying. I know of issues that have that effect on me.

So, moving beyond the reason God waits to reveal Himself - for the real issue is whether God is real or not, since if He is real then He can decide to reveal Himself how and when He desires and we have no say in it - moving beyond that, what is the real issue you have with God or with the gospel?

Do you understand the gospel, what it is?

Sincerely,
H.

 

[ldelporte]

If God does it now (send Jesus back), then that would be the time when it's too late for unbelievers.

Every knee will bow because they will want to when they see the glory, power, and authority of Jesus.

But, that doesn't mean that every knee that bows on that day is saved. I suspect Satan himself will bow.

 

[Theofane]

I hear people saying there will come a time when every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is lord. My question is why??? Will they do this because they are forced to against their will? Or will they choose to do so after God presents them with the truth. If for another reason, please explain. If for any of the reasons mentioned, why doesn’t God do it now before it is too late?

Ken

Hi, Ken.

The verse you refer to is one of my least favourite because on its face it seems dark and threatening. Does it mean that Christianity will take over world and dominate mankind to such an extent that literally no living person will not believe on Jesus Christ?

I'm not sure I like the sound of that.

 

[bling]

So are you saying when God comes back he will destroy everything and the nations armies can't protect it's citizens against Gods destruction?

This is more of a warning, a “saying”, a description of the ultimate enemy, a matter of fact and not the “objective” of God.

But why would the defeated nations bow to him? During war a nation may bow to their conquors because they are forced to; will this be the case with God? What about those who still refuse?

What is there left to take pride in?

It is a figure of speech and does not mean literally bowing.

 

[cimbk]

I hear people saying there will come a time when every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is lord. My question is why??? Will they do this because they are forced to against their will? Or will they choose to do so after God presents them with the truth. If for another reason, please explain. If for any of the reasons mentioned, why doesn’t God do it now before it is too late?

Ken

I can only give you my opinion based on what happened to me, I was shown every sin I ever committed and it was the equivelent of looking up at a Montana night sky and the stars were my sins,

and I have no words to describe how this could even be possible but my mind was able to fathem each and everyone of them at the same time, and the weight and sheer greatness of my sin's literally forced me to my knee's,

and I cried out to God "Oh my God you are real! please forgive me, help me to stop sinning" (and I really meant it) and it was like a invisable hand reached inside my heart and pulled every sin I've ever committed right out of me, I've never been the same since

why me and not the whole world?....I don't know I was told my little 10 yr old niece was praying for me and thats why I was shown what I was. God bless the prayers of little innocent girls!

 

[elman]

I hear people saying there will come a time when every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is lord. My question is why??? Will they do this because they are forced to against their will? Or will they choose to do so after God presents them with the truth. If for another reason, please explain. If for any of the reasons mentioned, why doesn’t God do it now before it is too late?

Ken

I think all other knees that do not bow will be dead and non existent. I don't think anyone will be forced to bow.

 

[cimbk]

I think all other knees that do not bow will be dead and non existent. I don't think anyone will be forced to bow.

we see the all the nations of the earth mourning when just the sign of the Son of Man appears in the sky, I think there is a little more to this sign that would make people cry, (while the bible doesn't say)

I think peoples eyes will be opened, and their minds will function at a level they've never known, they will have the ability to see their sins.

(somthing has to happen to atheist who don't believe otherwise they would not mourn) all the nations of the earth will mourn when they see the sign of His coming

 

[Ken-1122]

Thanks, Ken.

I'll address these in reverse if that's ok.


That's a good point. But where they are similar is that neither one involves conversion by faith in Christ alone. Both of them involve a mental decision based on what one sees, not on faith in the Lord one believes in. The one who sees Christ reveal Himself in the sky as truly God's Son and commands obedience is in that light will feign belief because he feels he has no other choice, not because of a heart change. That was my point. From that perspective it's the same conversion as the one who does an outward conversion because of threat of soldiers. Neither is from the heart, neither is real.

Okay here is how I see it; If a person sees Christ revealed from the sky as God's son, yeah he will believe he exists; but that doesn't mean he will follow him, it doesn't mean he will respect him, it doesn't mean he will even love him; all it means is he knows Jesus is God's son and he will still have the option to reject him. Now if he sees Christ revealed that way and loves him, that love will come from the heart.
Do you agree? If not show me where I've gone wrong.

ken

 

[Ken-1122]

When I said:
So are you saying you don't have to be christian to go to heaven? That people who worship other Gods or even no God at all will go to heaven if they are nice to one another?

Oi antz replied:
(quote)”
You are right though, that I don't believe only Christians will be drafted sheep and I don't believe all Christians will be drafted sheep. That is my understanding of what Jesus describes in Matthew 25.”

(reply) If by “drafted sheep” you mean the group who gets to go to heaven; if you are saying an Atheist, a Muslim, or someone of another religion can still go to heaven as long as they are good to one another, then that clears things up a bit. Thanks for your perspective

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Too late for what?

-CryptoLutheran

Why not provide proof of God's existence so non believers can make an informed decision before it is too late to convert.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Not at all. You're misunderstanding (or misusing) the word and concept. Maybe it's just due to the modern usage of the words? "Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ" is a loaded phrase, and you don't seem to be doing it justice here. (Not that I can blame you; it's complex, and not usually very well taught)



I have to suspect you think you're making some point here? Somebody else beat you to it by quite a few years:


"the devils also believe, and tremble." (James 2:19)

Let's see if we can put the pieces together to help you see what you're missing ...

On 2/03/12 at 8:53pm I said "Just because a person believes by faith doesnt mean they will have a change of heart; it just means they believe." To which you disagreed. Are you changing your opinion now?

Not according to the passage you cite in your thread title. (This really is the point of that verse, which is what you started this thread to discover)

Really? Which passage did I cite that said providing proof that Jesus is lord will force people to worship him against their will?

The word is "moot," but anyway; just because someone grows up in and adheres to another religion or belief system, doesn't mean that God automatically perceives that person as worshiping a different god, or an idol.

God looks on the heart.

That's one of the more powerful and profound points you'll find in the Bible, IMHO.

Now a person that hears the Truth about Jesus and forsakes Him to follow something else, be it religious or not? I think that would qualify for what you're getting at here.

So if I understand you correctly, you say you don't have to be christian to get to Heaven, you don't have to believe Jesus is lord because God looks at the heart; and as long as your heart is good you get in. Is that your opinion?

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

What is there left to take pride in?

If a person refuses to bow, it may not have anything to do with pride; it could be because they have no respect to the one over him.

It is a figure of speech and does not mean literally bowing.

So knee bowing and tongue confessing does not mean bowing and confessing? Then what does it mean?
Ken

 

[AvgJoe]

Providing proof does not force anyone to do anything; they will still have the option to reject or not, to obey or not.

God has already provided all the proof we need. Many people refuse to see it.

 

[razeontherock]

On 2/03/12 at 8:53pm I said "Just because a person believes by faith doesnt mean they will have a change of heart; it just means they believe." To which you disagreed. Are you changing your opinion now?

Nope. Your semantics are all over the place. Believing by Faith = change of heart. This is distinct from make believe.

Really? Which passage did I cite that said providing proof that Jesus is lord will force people to worship him against their will?

To think that one can "worship against their will," just means you don't know what worship is.

So if I understand you correctly, you say you don't have to be christian to get to Heaven, you don't have to believe Jesus is lord because God looks at the heart; and as long as your heart is good you get in. Is that your opinion?

Ken

Not in the least. Again, the words "get (into) heaven" is not a Scriptural term, so I'd feel pretty silly talking about them.

All Judgment is given unto the Son. If we want to make up some set of rules we think we can play by, that's the rule. He is the ruler. You are not w/o exposure to His existence, so concocting some hypothetical scenario doesn't serve any purpose here.

 

[razeontherock]

If a person refuses to bow, it may not have anything to do with pride; it could be because they have no respect to the one over him.

That an awfully good working definition of pride, Ken.

 

[Ken-1122]

God has already provided all the proof we need. Many people refuse to see it.

If that were true, people would be able to provide proof that God exists. Thus far nobody has been able to do that.

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

That's where you're wrong. What prevents you from accepting the proof that is enough for everyone else?

 

[Ken-1122]

Nope. Your semantics are all over the place. Believing by Faith = change of heart. This is distinct from make believe.

To believe weather it be by faith, evidence, proof, brainwashing, etc. does not mean a change in anything; it only means you are convinced of it.

To think that one can "worship against their will," just means you don't know what worship is.

You are the one who made that claim, not me. You changing your mind now?

Not in the least. Again, the words "get (into) heaven" is not a Scriptural term, so I'd feel pretty silly talking about them.

All Judgment is given unto the Son. If we want to make up some set of rules we think we can play by, that's the rule. He is the ruler. You are not w/o exposure to His existence, so concocting some hypothetical scenario doesn't serve any purpose here.

I was just looking for your opinion that's all

K

 

[razeontherock]

To believe weather it be by faith, evidence, proof, brainwashing, etc. does not mean a change in anything; it only means you are convinced of it.

Yup. And there are certain things, that being convinced of - changes you. It is the Holy spirit that convinces us of sin, righteousness, and Judgment. These things change us (by His Spirit, of course)

Hopefully you see my opinion re: your last comment?