Why will every knee bow?

[Ken-1122]

Apparently you have a different view of this than God does. Will He change due to your superior wisdom?

So are you saying anyone who believes Jesus is the christ will behave morally?

Um, yes it does. That's the whole point

There are Gang members who murder via drive-by shootings who believe in your God.

So you're saying you could decide to believe the earth is flat and on the back of giant turtles? I don't believe you.

No I am saying providing proof that Jesus is lord will not force anyone to worship Jesus as lord; they will still have the option to reject him.

What if God isn't as worried about this "wrong God" concept as you are?

If God doesn't have a problem with people worshiping other Gods, then I guess my point would be mute.

Ken

 

[ViaCrucis]

I hear people saying there will come a time when every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is lord. My question is why??? Will they do this because they are forced to against their will? Or will they choose to do so after God presents them with the truth. If for another reason, please explain. If for any of the reasons mentioned, why doesn’t God do it now before it is too late?

Ken

I don't think there's any reason to believe there will be some invisible force causing one's knee to hit the ground against their will. Rather it seems that St. Paul envisions everyone admitting what is real and true, and that is that Jesus is Lord and therefore bending the knee as is fitting.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Iakobos]

If this is the case then hypothetically couldn't this be changed? What if despite seeing evidence of God you refuse to bow to him and thus leave scripture unfulfilled?

 

[oi_antz]

I'm not saying Christians are exempt from judgment, I'm saying you can be as good as can be, but if you don't believe, you will be judged the same as Hitler, Omin, and all the other evil people who deserve hell. But if proof were provided, good people would be making an informed decision, thus they wouldn't be judged harshly as a result of their ignorance. That's how I see it; do you see it differently?

Ken

Those underlined sections are presumptuous, I would like to see biblical evidence of these ideas. It is true that we have lost a lot of information through the centuries, that could probably have assisted you to make a better informed decision about Jesus. It is also true that there have been umpteen perversions of the gospel to confuse the seekers. But it is also important to acknowledge that the portion of information that survived is perfectly sufficient for faith when handled correctly. And also the gravity of Jesus' impact on earth according to the information we have, is proof enough when viewed in the appropriate context. Of course, if someone is so intent on being ignorant then who is able to change their mind?

Yes, I do see it differently. I see that there are two distinct types of people (yes I know, another dichotomy): there are those who love truth and those who hate it. What makes one person love truth and another hate it? That is a good topic for debate, perhaps a topic you might like to think about. Whatever the reason, there are clearly those two types of people in the world: those who when pressed hard enough by Jesus would shout "crucify him" and those who would say "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!". It shouldn't be a surprise from witnessing condescension in various factions of Christianity that there are some who call themselves Christian today, who if rebuked by Jesus would actually hate Him.

Jesus said this to Pontius Pilate: You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.

He also said this:

Matthew 10:34
[ Christ Brings Division ] “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

Christianity is a very complex matter. There are many reasons why someone would want to be Christian: fear, greed, loneliness, love of truth, free soup, fashion and probably many others. There are many who don't consider themselves Christian who are more like Christ than some who claim to be Christian. There are Christian Nicolaitans, false prophets, false teachers, liars and swindlers in churches all around the world. They are those who Jesus hates. I've said it before and I'll say it again for your information that there are many who belong to Jesus who have been led astray. Jesus said this though:

Luke 15:4
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

And He also said this:

John 10:1
[ Jesus the True Shepherd ] “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Another thing He said which is directly relevant to your OP, is this:

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

So if you have insecurities about your salvation, or you don't have love for the one who gave you life (which is how it appears), then the onus is on you to investigate why. As I already said, the precious little information that remains about Jesus is sufficient to make an informed decision whether you will honor Him.

As for your embedded question why does God not provide proof that Jesus is Lord to the whole world, it is not the first time this question has been asked. In fact Jesus was asked that very question. This is what He said:

John 14:22-24
New King James Version (NKJV)
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

So we're all in the same boat, it is just that some happen to love Jesus and others happen to hate Him. I want to ask you how you feel about Jesus, I know that being atheist doesn't exclude you from honoring Him. In fact the biggest grievances I've seen among atheist's are due to actions of the religious and not Jesus Himself.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If this is the case then hypothetically couldn't this be changed? What if despite seeing evidence of God you refuse to bow to him and thus leave scripture unfulfilled?

I'm not sure that it's the "evidence of God" that leads to the bowing. It's probably more the universal acceptance of the reality of Jesus' universal lordship over the whole of creation.

Ostensibly one can could imagine that it doesn't happen all at once, or one could imagine that we're talking about something so profoundly bigger and more amazing then simply seeing "evidence of God", but a total overwhelming of the Divine Presence that even the hardest of hearts are softened and even the devil himself lay prostrate.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Iakobos]

I'm not sure that it's the "evidence of God" that leads to the bowing. It's probably more the universal acceptance of the reality of Jesus' universal lordship over the whole of creation.

Ostensibly one can could imagine that it doesn't happen all at once, or one could imagine that we're talking about something so profoundly bigger and more amazing then simply seeing "evidence of God", but a total overwhelming of the Divine Presence that even the hardest of hearts are softened and even the devil himself lay prostrate.

-CryptoLutheran

Ahhh overwhelming someone is the same as hardening their hearts, just like pharoah! Not fair.

 

[someguy14]

I think you are misunderstanding me. I'm not talking about saying your God is bad, I'm saying there are Muslims, Hindu's etc. who believe in their God and are as moral as Christians. These people who worship what you might consider a false God, but behave good will be judged as harshly as Hitler; am I wrong?

Ken

Essentially, the core is, that God is all the "good".
It is for all creation, all life, to give credit to the truth. Good is good, this is a fact and can only be disagreed with by lieing. Im saying, God is all that good. All creation is invited. Perhaps man made traditions and rules seperate different humans, that is not the focus here though. God is all. The Creator of all. God is THE good. If any creature agree's with goodness, that creature automatically agree's with God or else they don't actually agree with goodness. God is all goodness. Without God, goodness doesn't exist.

As far as judgement is concerned.
God, The Creator, is the judge of every creature, great and small.
If you do a search through scripture, you can find where it is mentioned about God judging every man according to his works. None can escape that judgement. That judgement is between each individual and God alone. To stand before God alone. Revealing everything. God judges each individual and is worthy to say and do all that God desires with His creation. Hitler will recieve his judgement before God. Each person will recieve their judgement before God, The Creator of all. God is wise and just, perfect and blameless. God loves each and everyone of us very much and desires a relationship with each of us. He is my best friend. He is your best friend. The fact is, He is everybodies best friend. He alone, desires the best for each of us. He understands every heart fully, entirely. Regardless of "religions", or traditions set in place by men. God sent His son(His Word), to give us a chance, to cleanse us from error and destruction, to bring us into a relationship with Him. He desires that all come to know Him, for He alone, is Love. He alone, is the goodness itself.

Jesus loves each and every one of you. That isn't only some catchy phrase, it is an actual fact.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Ken-1122. Why not now? why later? because God loves us and wants as many as possible to hear the Good-News, and then bow their knees, and show their Love and Allegiance. Jesus is always ready to lead us: He is the WAY. I say this with love, Ken. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[bling]

There are “Days of the Lord” (this is like the sentencing point of a judgment of God that is coming down) in scripture describing the destruction of empires and kingdoms. At these times people cannot rely on their great walls, great armies, wealth, power, intellect, or nation to protect them. The only thing left is God so they bow to him, but it is too late.

The last part of your question is much more complex:

First: God is not looking for us to acknowledge his existence. If you truly do not want to accept God’s free gift than knowing He exists is only going to upset you in this life.

“Knowledge” of God’s existence can actually work against the nonbeliever, because it eliminates the need for faith in the existence of a benevolent creator.

 

[Ken-1122]

I don't think there's any reason to believe there will be some invisible force causing one's knee to hit the ground against their will. Rather it seems that St. Paul envisions everyone admitting what is real and true, and that is that Jesus is Lord and therefore bending the knee as is fitting.

-CryptoLutheran

So what event will happen to cause everyone to admit what is real and true? What will cause this and why not have it happen now before it is too late?

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Those underlined sections are presumptuous, I would like to see biblical evidence of these ideas. It is true that we have lost a lot of information through the centuries, that could probably have assisted you to make a better informed decision about Jesus. It is also true that there have been umpteen perversions of the gospel to confuse the seekers. But it is also important to acknowledge that the portion of information that survived is perfectly sufficient for faith when handled correctly. And also the gravity of Jesus' impact on earth according to the information we have, is proof enough when viewed in the appropriate context. Of course, if someone is so intent on being ignorant then who is able to change their mind?

I was just going by what I hear other christians say. So are you saying you don't have to be christian to go to heaven? That people who worship other Gods or even no God at all will go to heaven if they are nice to one another? If I am minunderstanding you please explain

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Essentially, the core is, that God is all the "good".
It is for all creation, all life, to give credit to the truth. Good is good, this is a fact and can only be disagreed with by lieing. Im saying, God is all that good. All creation is invited. Perhaps man made traditions and rules seperate different humans, that is not the focus here though. God is all. The Creator of all. God is THE good. If any creature agree's with goodness, that creature automatically agree's with God or else they don't actually agree with goodness. God is all goodness. Without God, goodness doesn't exist.

As far as judgement is concerned.
God, The Creator, is the judge of every creature, great and small.
If you do a search through scripture, you can find where it is mentioned about God judging every man according to his works. None can escape that judgement. That judgement is between each individual and God alone. To stand before God alone. Revealing everything. God judges each individual and is worthy to say and do all that God desires with His creation. Hitler will recieve his judgement before God. Each person will recieve their judgement before God, The Creator of all. God is wise and just, perfect and blameless. God loves each and everyone of us very much and desires a relationship with each of us. He is my best friend. He is your best friend. The fact is, He is everybodies best friend. He alone, desires the best for each of us. He understands every heart fully, entirely. Regardless of "religions", or traditions set in place by men. God sent His son(His Word), to give us a chance, to cleanse us from error and destruction, to bring us into a relationship with Him. He desires that all come to know Him, for He alone, is Love. He alone, is the goodness itself.

Jesus loves each and every one of you. That isn't only some catchy phrase, it is an actual fact.

I was just going by what I hear other christians say. So are you saying you don't have to be christian to go to heaven? That people who worship other Gods or even no God at all will go to heaven if they are nice to one another? If I am minunderstanding you please explain

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Dear Ken-1122. Why not now? why later? because God loves us and wants as many as possible to hear the Good-News, and then bow their knees, and show their Love and Allegiance. Jesus is always ready to lead us: He is the WAY. I say this with love, Ken. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Actually when I asked "why not now" that was in the context of why not provide proof of his existence now; rather than later after it is too late. Do you have an answer to the question in that context?

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

There are “Days of the Lord” (this is like the sentencing point of a judgment of God that is coming down) in scripture describing the destruction of empires and kingdoms. At these times people cannot rely on their great walls, great armies, wealth, power, intellect, or nation to protect them.

So are you saying when God comes back he will destroy everything and the nations armies can't protect it's citizens against Gods destruction?

The only thing left is God so they bow to him, but it is too late.

But why would the defeated nations bow to him? During war a nation may bow to their conquors because they are forced to; will this be the case with God? What about those who still refuse?

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

I'm not sure that it's the "evidence of God" that leads to the bowing. It's probably more the universal acceptance of the reality of Jesus' universal lordship over the whole of creation.

Ostensibly one can could imagine that it doesn't happen all at once, or one could imagine that we're talking about something so profoundly bigger and more amazing then simply seeing "evidence of God", but a total overwhelming of the Divine Presence that even the hardest of hearts are softened and even the devil himself lay prostrate.

-CryptoLutheran

So why not have this happen now before it is too late?

Ken

 

[Hupomone10]

Thanks, Ken.

I'll address these in reverse if that's ok.

Seems to me there is a big difference between "convert or I will kill you" and "here are the facts, convert if you wish" don't you agree?

That's a good point. But where they are similar is that neither one involves conversion by faith in Christ alone. Both of them involve a mental decision based on what one sees, not on faith in the Lord one believes in. The one who sees Christ reveal Himself in the sky as truly God's Son and commands obedience is in that light will feign belief because he feels he has no other choice, not because of a heart change. That was my point. From that perspective it's the same conversion as the one who does an outward conversion because of threat of soldiers. Neither is from the heart, neither is real.

"if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved;" (Romans 10:9) Either one of the above two groups can do the first part, but you cannot fake the heart-motives, especially when we're dealing with God, Who knows the hearts.

How about those who turn from sin to God but they turn to the wrong God? They turn to the only God they know; the one they were brought up around?

If someone already told you this, I apologize, but Christianity is not just about 'turning to God' as you say, but about our having fallen from the Creator's grace and needing forgiveness for our wrongs. If it were only about a mental belief in a Creator, I could see how all beliefs would be more or less equal.

But when it comes to forgiveness, converting and 'turning to God' so to speak, doesn't get the job done any more than if someone guilty of murder were to say, "well, yesterday I didn't even believe in the court or the judge, but today I think he's real." That doesn't solve the problem of his breaking the law or the penalty because of it.

All religions except Christianity teach a way of getting that penalty taken care of by good works. In other words, by things you do, as though anyone could undo murder by simply not murdering the next hundred people they come across.

Christianity tells us that we are guilty of sin against God. It is far worse than any guilt against the state. The greatest commandment is: "love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength" (Matthew 22:37). Any who have not done that, and that's all of us, is guilty of breaking the greatest law of the universe.

The only way out is to pay for the sin, or for someone else to pay the penalty in your place.

I hope this was not too long and makes sense. It isn't about believing in God. It's about sin against God and the way He set up for forgiveness.

Blessings,
H.

 

[oi_antz]

I was just going by what I hear other christians say. So are you saying you don't have to be christian to go to heaven? That people who worship other Gods or even no God at all will go to heaven if they are nice to one another? If I am minunderstanding you please explain

Ken

You shouldn't put so much weight on hear-say, instead get your information straight from the source. Jesus promises that when we come to Him thirsty He will give us water that springs up into everlasting life. That is what you need.

You are right though, that I don't believe only Christians will be drafted sheep and I don't believe all Christians will be drafted sheep. That is my understanding of what Jesus describes in Matthew 25. I will lead you through it as I understand it, and please correct me if you think I am reading it wrong:

THE FINAL JUDGMENT
31 "But when the Son of Man* comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne.32 All the nations* will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.

Notice here that all the "nations" will be gathered before Him. Note that the word "nation" means to describe a type of people. This to me could mean those of a type of belief, a type of hair color, a type of anything. The point is that everyone is gathered before Him. Then He sorts them, the sheep on the right and the goats on the left.

So you wonder now what is the criteria for being drafted a sheep or goat, if it is not due to your "nationality" or the "type" of person you are? Jesus did stipulate this clearly within the same story:

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home.36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.'
37 "Then these righteous ones will reply, 'Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink?38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing?39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?'
40 "And the King will say, 'I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,* you were doing it to me!'
41 "Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.*42 For I was hungry, and you didn't feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn't give me a drink.43 I was a stranger, and you didn't invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn't give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn't visit me.'
44 "Then they will reply, 'Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?'
45 "And he will answer, 'I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.'
46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life."

The parts I bolded say it all. That God has blessed the righteous and cursed the sinners. This is a consistent theme in Christianity, the second most important commandment according to Jesus:

36 "Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?"
37 Jesus replied, "'You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.'*38 This is the first and greatest commandment.39 A second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'*40 The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments."

Note that "righteousness" according to God demands that we love and honor Him and each other.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Ahhh overwhelming someone is the same as hardening their hearts, just like pharoah! Not fair.

Or like the way the spring rain overwhelms the earth and feeds life into the soil.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

So why not have this happen now before it is too late?

Ken

Too late for what?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[God's Word]

Ken-1122:

You've already been shown one place where "every knee shall bow" appears in scripture (Romans 14:11-12, see also Philippians 2:9-11), but here is where it originally appears in scripture:

Isaiah 45:18-23

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. I HAVE NOT SPOKEN IN SECRET, IN A DARK PLACE OF THE EARTH: I SAID NOT UNTO THE SEED OF JACOB, SEEK YE ME IN VAIN: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. LOOK UNTO ME, AND BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH; FOR I AM GOD, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE. I HAVE SWORN BY MYSELF, THE WORD IS GONE OUT OF MY MOUTH IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND SHALL NOT RETURN, THAT UNTO ME EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR."

God hasn't "spoken in secret" and yet you seem to insist that multitudes don't know of Him. He's given us each a conscience and the very word itself means "with knowledge". He's continually depicted as striving with us via the Holy Spirit, creation itself points to its Creator and then there's the variable of those who are obedient to His Word and preach the gospel unto others. I mean, you've heard of God, haven't you? He says unto you, "Look unto me, and be saved". He also doesn't call you to "seek Him in vain", but promises that if you truly seek, then you shall find. IOW, whereas you seem to insist that you're waiting on God's timing, it's been God's timing all along, for we read:

II Corinthians 6:1-2

"We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation)."

Again, Paul is quoting from the Old Testament prophet Isaiah, where we read:

Isaiah 49:8

"Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages."

If I were to cite the verses which precede this one and some of those which follow, then it would be apparent that the Father is actually having a conversation with the Son here and that Jesus Christ is ultimately our salvation and our help. Anyhow, my point is this:

It was the acceptable time of God's salvation in Isaiah's day, it was also the acceptable time of God's salvation many years later in Paul's day and it is still the acceptable time of God's salvation FOR YOU today.

You've heard the call...will YOU answer it? If you do, then you could be part of the solution to the problem which you perceive. IOW, if you truly submit yourself to God, then God can use you to help reach OTHERS.

Matthew 9:36-38

"But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest."

I don't want to question your motives, as they very well may be totally sincere, but if you're truly concerned about those who allegedly have no "proof" as of yet, then do something about it. Give your life to the Lord and become a living epistle, "known and read of men" (II Corinthians 3:1-3). Afterall, it could only help BOTH them and you.