Why we don't have women as priests (Moved from TAW)

[Orthosdoxa]

Hello all,

Just looking for some help with resources. I met a guy who is interested in the church, but his wife isn't for the main reason of not wanting to be a part of something that "discriminates against women". We've been emailing back and forth a little bit about it and I wrote what I thought was a very thoughtful (and very long!) missive about the history and theology behind it and the incredible roles that women DO play in the church. I didn't hear back for months, but just last night got another email, asking for more information. I've googled my little heart out and don't know where else to go from here. Books? Links you think I might not've seen? Anything? Thanks.

 

[Lukaris]

Have not seen you for a long time. I saw Q & A section on the OCA website tiled: Ordination of Women. I am on an andoid & do not know how to post the link. I will try to type it: https://oca.org/questions/priesthoodmonasticism/ordination-of-women


also: www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/SchmemannOrdination.php

 

[truefiction1]

I don't know, but somehow I don't think that the Church discriminates against women.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

Right. It doesn't. But explaining this to a progressive Protestant who is used to women being "priestesses" and such is proving difficult for me.

 

[truefiction1]

I'm wondering if this man's wife is educated enough in modern science to at least concede that there are important differences in male and female psychology, accordingly creating unique developmental needs for each, and that the progressives may have become largely ignorant of this and other truths about the human psyche to the spiritual detriment of many.

 

[inconsequential]

I like to cheese them off by stating that "women and men are NOT equal..." I pause to let their BP rise, then continue, "...they are complementary."

I've met women who came close to being my equal. As Phil Robertson said, "Women with whiskers...it's a bummer."

 

[truefiction1]

The truth is (and it is a truth seldom realized within even our own Church today) that individual women have a much greater leadership role within the church that must be actualized by them. There role is greater than that of a priest in several important ways, and I would ask any woman who thinks she is interested in becoming a priest why she would settle for becoming less than who she truly is. The failure to become oneself is truly a tragic thing in human existence, and it is the very thing that prevents the Church from becoming the force of goodness in the world that She is capable of being.

 

[Antony in Tx]

I would consider having them contact Khouria Frederica Matthewes-Greene in Baltimore. I'm sure she would enlighten them greatly on the role of women in the Orthodox Church. She does respond to emails, as I have corresponded with her in the past, and is quite personable.

 

[Antony in Tx]

Actually went to Khouria Frederica's webpage and found this.

 

[Bunnelby]

Again, going by what I was taught; the Church is referred to as feminine, and the priest marries the Church by going into the priesthood. A woman can't do it for that reason.

Kind of like how a man cannot be a consecrated virgin in the Catholic Church, because they cannot be a bride of Christ.

Do with that what you will.

 

[ArmyMatt]

you could tell her that in one sense women are priests, being members of the royal priesthood of believers. she makes the same offering at the chalice that the priest does.

and if she has any qualms about women being discriminated by not being ordained, I would ask her to have a sit down with an Abbess. plus, in my experience, the healthiest parishes I have been to not only have a loving and prayerful priest, but a loving and active priest's wife as well. men and women are called to different roles within the Church, but all are equal in dignity before God.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I know this is not helpful as an arguing point, but in my 13 years in Orthodoxy I have felt much less division between the sexes than anywhere else. Men are not exalted over women or vice-versa. We are all appreciated as members of the parish, and we all just bring whatever we have to help the parish in any way needed. I've said this before, but I think what is different in the Orthodox faith is that we understand that each person - no matter his/her role or title in the Church, is struggling towards salvation in exactly the same way as every other person.

Mary

 

[prodromos]

Is it also possible that women assuming authority over men is a result of the fall? After all, Adam and Eve lived in perfect harmony with each other and with God. What was the first thing she did after eating of the forbidden fruit? She gave the same fruit to Adam!
In the creation account, Eve was created as a suitable helper for Adam because none of the animals were found to be suitable, so it would seem that the right place for women in the Church is to help and complement their husbands or priests, not to actually take the role of priest as in a sense that would mirror the second sin of Eve.

I'm no theologian so take everything I say with a grain of salt and a side serving of salad (no dressing, its Lent)

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

To borrow a Catholic term (please, no one shoot me! LOL), the priest stands in persona christi in the place of Christ. During the Divine Liturgy, he is Christ for us serving up Himself as a perfect recapitulation to the Father in Heaven. He stands as Christ, our Brother. He re-presents the Divine Gifts in a very special, unique way. And when the priest stands as a witness to our confession to our Lord, our priest calls us "my spiritual child." When the priest delivers the sacramental graces to us, it is uniquely male. He is our spiritual FATHER, not mother! A Father cannot be a Mother.

If a female could stand in the priesthood, the Lord would've surely chosen female apostles, right?

Think about it. If all that mattered was goodness, humility, and holiness, who would you choose to be apostles in the NT? Well, I for one would choose St. Mary Magdalene and the Theotokos herself!!! Perhaps Martha and Mary or both? Perhaps St. Veronica who wiped the face of Our Lord, no?

But Jesus chooses only men. That's quite telling. If anyone "deserved" it, it would be Mary Magdalene and the Theotokos! They were at the foot of the Cross! They were there when His tomb was empty and they saw Him risen! They followed His Passion, and they were with Him throughout His ministry! But alas, we don't have women priests because it is a contradiction in terms. A father can't be a mother. We are all called differently. Priesthood isn't an intrinsic "right," but a calling. I'm a male, but even I'm not priest material! I'm not called. I'm not right for it. I accept that.

a) no female apostles
b) no priestesses for 2,000 years
c) in persona Christi precludes no women
d) if Jesus had wanted women priests, HE'D HAVE HAD THEM! Our Lord was and is no shrinking violet! The very Man who wasn't afraid to flip over the money-changers' table and whip them, the Man who called the Pharisees "a brood of vipers" and "white sepulchers!" The same Man who cured on the Sabbath, the same Man who called himself "the Son of God" and totally fought the powers, this Jesus Christ I know isn't one bit afraid to buck the trends! If Jesus had wanted women priests, MY GOLLY HE'D HAVE GOTTEN THEM!

But keep in mind the HERETICS had priestesses! Look at the Gnostics!

 

[Bunnelby]

a) no female apostles

Plenty of Equal-To's though. Like St. Olga of Kiev and St. Mary Magdalene. They have Equal-To-The-Apostles status. St. Mary Magdalene is called the Apostle to the Apostles.

 

[rusmeister]

I would consider having them contact Khouria Frederica Matthewes-Greene in Baltimore. I'm sure she would enlighten them greatly on the role of women in the Orthodox Church. She does respond to emails, as I have corresponded with her in the past, and is quite personable.

I sent her a thoughtful and respectful e-mail challenging her ideas on "gender" and " gay marriage" and she never replied.
I've no doubt she's personal, but I would have appreciated at least commentary in a podcast or somewhere dealing with the things I brought up, if not a personal reply.

 

[rusmeister]

Protestants tend to respect CS Lewis - would offering his thoughts on the matter help?
Priestesses in the Church?

It's quite Orthodox from our standpoint.

 

[Shane R]

I thought of the rich tradition of women saints; of St. Mary of Egypt, St. Helen, and so many others. Often it seems the woman leads the household by example until her slow dense man comes around to the faith. Different leadership styles, different gender roles, but equal value in God's eyes.

Church tradition is a strong argument to me. Orthodoxy - and Catholicism - have never ordained women to the presbytery. There are many roles which they fill within the church and within monasticism but not that one.

 

[GregConstantine]

What no one mentioned here is that being a priest or any clergy for that matter is not a "job" in the secular sense as in a truck driver, a secretary, a policeman, etc. All these "jobs", the Church does not dogmatically say a woman cannot or should not do those jobs. Some cultures and societies may believe it is inappropriate for a woman to be in certain types of jobs, but that's cultural, not doctrine.
So, being an "elder" (this is what the word "priest" actually means) isn't a job in the secular sense, but a vocation that the Church in her wisdom with Jesus Christ as our high priest, has declare that is only for men.

And you know what? that needs to be enough for anyone who is Orthodox. You can tell your friend that we do not come into the Church and bring the world with us and demand that the Church change and mold to it, but that we are to mold ourselves to the Church.

To the comment about Khouria Frederica, I go to her parish and know her personally. I'm sure that your email is one of many, many, many emails that she gets on a day to day basis. I do know that while she may have her opinions, she does uphold the teachings of the Church in regards to marriage and appropriate sexual activity.

Please do not post such things that paint anyone that you do not know personally in a bad light on a public forum such as this. You can email her personally if you have an issue with how you think she should be responding to you.

Just because you can put something on the internet, it doesn't mean you should.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm wondering if this man's wife is educated enough in modern science to at least concede that there are important differences in male and female psychology, accordingly creating unique developmental needs for each, and that the progressives may have become largely ignorant of this and other truths about the human psyche to the spiritual detriment of many.

Why do you accuse progressives of being uneducated? This sort of essentialism of gender is something many educated individuals reject.

I would give up on this couple. Unless you want a divided marriage, it is not a good idea for them to join the orthodox church if the wife has strong feelings on this matter.