Why we don't have women as priests (Moved from TAW)

[rusmeister]

What no one mentioned here is that being a priest or any clergy for that matter is not a "job" in the secular sense as in a truck driver, a secretary, a policeman, etc. All these "jobs", the Church does not dogmatically say a woman cannot or should not do those jobs. Some cultures and societies may believe it is inappropriate for a woman to be in certain types of jobs, but that's cultural, not doctrine.
So, being an "elder" (this is what the word "priest" actually means) isn't a job in the secular sense, but a vocation that the Church in her wisdom with Jesus Christ as our high priest, has declare that is only for men.

And you know what? that needs to be enough for anyone who is Orthodox. You can tell your friend that we do not come into the Church and bring the world with us and demand that the Church change and mold to it, but that we are to mold ourselves to the Church.

To the comment about Khouria Frederica, I go to her parish and know her personally. I'm sure that your email is one of many, many, many emails that she gets on a day to day basis. I do know that while she may have her opinions, she does uphold the teachings of the Church in regards to marriage and appropriate sexual activity.

Please do not post such things that paint anyone that you do not know personally in a bad light on a public forum such as this. You can email her personally if you have an issue with how you think she should be responding to you.

Just because you can put something on the internet, it doesn't mean you should.

Hi, Greg,
I didn't say anything bad about her.
And if she is too busy to respond to e-mails (which wouldn't surprise me in the least), then what good would e-mails complaining about it do?

She has a relatively broad platform to express her opinions on. I'm sure she is mature enough to handle respectful disagreement, and ought to expect getting some once in a while (as I am sure she does).

I think you've read my post in a darker light than I intended.

 

[Kristos]

Protestants tend to respect CS Lewis - would offering his thoughts on the matter help?
Priestesses in the Church?

It's quite Orthodox from our standpoint.

Lewis is good. I am thinking that the root of the question is what really needs to be addressed, not necessarily the question itself. I would suspect that the root of the question is primarily a modernist understanding of equality and personal freedom. For many people, this is the only understanding they are aware of. Awareness of other understandings is perhaps the first step in introducing doubt and encouraging a search for truth. Therefore, I also recommend "The Abolition of Man" also by Lewis.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Hello all,

Just looking for some help with resources. I met a guy who is interested in the church, but his wife isn't for the main reason of not wanting to be a part of something that "discriminates against women". We've been emailing back and forth a little bit about it and I wrote what I thought was a very thoughtful (and very long!) missive about the history and theology behind it and the incredible roles that women DO play in the church. I didn't hear back for months, but just last night got another email, asking for more information. I've googled my little heart out and don't know where else to go from here. Books? Links you think I might not've seen? Anything? Thanks.

The priest acts en persona Christi(as the person of Christ) during the consecration. Christ was male.

Also, Jesus only chose male apostles.

 

[Cappadocious]

None of the answers provided so far seem very persuasive. Does anyone agree with me?

 

[Cappadocious]

Is it also possible that women assuming authority over men is a result of the fall?

According to St. John Chrysostom, the opposite is true; men having authority over women is a result of the Fall.

 

[rusmeister]

None of the answers provided so far seem very persuasive. Does anyone agree with me?

Lewis is VERY, VERY persuasive.
On that alone I cannot agree, though what everyone else has said is also true.

A person who will not be persuaded cannot be persuaded. They must first be genuinely open to the possibility.

 

[graceandpeace]

None of the answers provided so far seem very persuasive. Does anyone agree with me?

I am not Orthodox but I feel the same...

Of course, coming from Methodist traditions, I've always support women to be ordained; however, in my church journey I've tried to keep myself open to different views on this subject.

What I am wondering is if gender is criteria, then why not also ethnicity? Jesus only called Jewish apostles, right - of the Middle East? Yet race has never been a criteria, has it?

I really am open to learning & while I am leaning towards Anglicanism I am still fond of Orthodoxy.

 

[Kristos]

I am not Orthodox but I feel the same...

Of course, coming from Methodist traditions, I've always support women to be ordained; however, in my church journey I've tried to keep myself open to different views on this subject.

What I am wondering is if gender is criteria, then why not also ethnicity? Jesus only called Jewish apostles, right - of the Middle East? Yet race has never been a criteria, has it?

I really am open to learning & while I am leaning towards Anglicanism I am still fond of Orthodoxy.

Not really. It's all very clear when you stop trying to reduce the priest to a secular vocation that only needs a neuter cog to operate. A priest is ordained by God to represent Him to the people. God the Father - Father, not Mother. God the Son - is Son not Daughter. Jesus Christ was a man. Why? It's not entirely clear - and that is the part of the argument which remains opaque and what I assuming is being referred to as not persuasive. But there is no doubt that a Christian priest is male, and must be male as ordained by God Himself so that he represent God to the people, as the Bridegroom to the Bride. The two are NOT interchangeable contrary to modern thought - nor can you have two Brides or two Bridegrooms.

 

[Bunnelby]

Jesus Christ was a man. Why? It's not entirely clear -

Yes it is. The second Person of the Holy Trinity became male because He is the new Adam. The role of new Eve was given to His Mother.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What I am wondering is if gender is criteria, then why not also ethnicity? Jesus only called Jewish apostles, right - of the Middle East? Yet race has never been a criteria, has it?

because the Apostles ordained male clergy of any race, they never ordained women. the priesthood in modern times is seen too much like some kind of social status. holiness and being Christlike is the status that matters, not where you stand or how you are addressed in Church. there are many lay women out there who have taught me a lot about theology and spirituality, even though they were not ordained (Mother Magdalena from Holy Transfiguration Monastery comes to mind, for any of you out there who know her), and I could sit at their feet and listen for hours if allowed to.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

And just look at how St. Macrina schooled her younger brother!

because the Apostles ordained male clergy of any race, they never ordained women. the priesthood in modern times is seen too much like some kind of social status. holiness and being Christlike is the status that matters, not where you stand or how you are addressed in Church. there are many lay women out there who have taught me a lot about theology and spirituality, even though they were not ordained (Mother Magdalena from Holy Transfiguration Monastery comes to mind, for any of you out there who know her), and I could sit at their feet and listen for hours if allowed to.

 

[ArmyMatt]

And just look at how St. Macrina schooled her younger brother!

or St Monica with her son St Augustine. or St Mary of Egypt with St Zosimas.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

Thanks to everyone for posting. I have comments on several posts but will have to do that later as I am getting ready for work. A quick question: my acquaintance is eager to talk to other men who have been in his position - looking seriously at the church, but whose wife has serious misgivings, and how to balance both sets of spiritual needs. If anyone is interested in communicating with him, pm me your email address. Thanks.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I guess a question, even if the wife has misgivings, is she okay with him pursuing this? I know many folks (and on here) where one spouse converts and the other does not right away.

 

[Cappadocious]

A person who will not be persuaded cannot be persuaded. They must first be genuinely open to the possibility.

My Church teaches that; so I am more than open to the possibility.

That said, a God Who is Truth doesn't need crappy arguments. I believe that Christ is Risen; if someone attempted to convince me that Christ is risen, by appealing to the exceptional quality of the marble columns at the Tomb of the Holy Sepulcher, I would be right not to believe based on that argument.

The arguments presented here for an all-male priesthood seem to be crappy arguments.

Not really. It's all very clear when you stop trying to reduce the priest to a secular vocation that only needs a neuter cog to operate. A priest is ordained by God to represent Him to the people. God the Father - Father, not Mother. God the Son - is Son not Daughter.

If women cannot be priests because women do not/cannot represent Christ, then we have a big, big problem. That argument implies theological horrors which no Orthodox Christian can accept.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Excuse you? That's a sorry way to dialogue, bro. I don't think anyone's arguments here are "crappy." Try "unconvincing" or something a bit more classy. But if you read these posts carefully, they're in line with Church thinking on the matter.

The arguments presented here for an all-male priesthood seem to be crappy arguments.



If women cannot be priests because women do not/cannot represent Christ, then we have a big, big problem. That argument implies theological horrors which no Orthodox Christian can accept.

 

[Lukaris]

I did not think posting links to the OCA & an article by the late Fr Alexander Schmemann would constitute something "crappy"!!!!

 

[rusmeister]

I did not think posting links to the OCA & an article by the late Fr Alexander Schmemann would constitute something "crappy"!!!!

Or the extremely well thought out article by Lewis. The only way a person could call it "crappy" is if they didn't read it.

If anything is unpersuasive, it is statements that dismiss and refuse to engage what was said in those several links.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Agreed. I can't recall a "crappy" moment from Lewis, frankly.

Or the extremely well thought out article by Lewis. The only way a person could call it "crappy" is if they didn't read it.

If anything is unpersuasive, it is statements that dismiss and refuse to engage what was said in those several links.

 

[buzuxi02]

There is a heirarchial order within the Church. The head of the wife is the husband and the head of the man is Christ, this order cannot be usurped. You cannot serve two masters

On the altar sits the eternal flame where the gifts are consecrated. In the OT an altar was a stone slab where the burnt sacrifice took place. In greek these altars were called hestias. Its where we get modern words such estiatorio for restaurant and such.

This was basically a hearthen oven and in ancient times it was the center of domestic home life of which the woman presided over. When bread is baked in one of these hearthen ovens, it is loaded with wood and fired up. When it turns to ash it is pushed aside to make room to place the bread in. As the remnants of the wood is pushed aside it still glows from the heat. This is the eternal flame of the home altar.

Thus the woman is the priestess of the home, she is the head of her children. She prepares the gifts on her altar (the estia) for her family to partake of. The male priest on the other hand prepares the gifts on the altar of the Church, for his flock to partake of. Thus when this ordering is interrupted we begin to serve two masters, where we will begin to hate the one and love the other. Its all metaphysics.