Why the Trinity is a False Doctrine

[Goatee]

Have you not read....


The law was indeed given by angels. And then even in the burning bush passage,


This being in the burning bush, was indeed an angel, and he was indeed the being named YHWH, as then it is written,


This angel, named YHWH, saw, called, and spoke to Moses. And then this angel goes to say,


So this angel is indeed identified as God, with the name of YHWH, yet is lesser than the one being, Jesus, who is higher and is also called God, that spoke all beings into existence, including this angel, which is why we now do all things in the name of Jesus, because this is the highest name given to us in order to be saved,

Sorry but i disagree with your interpretations.

 

[cgaviria]

Sorry but i disagree with your interpretations.

On what basis, your own interpretations? I have given you the scriptures clearly indicating that YHWH is the name of an angel.

 

[Strong in Him]

I suggest you read a study I did on predetermination.

That's not the subject of this thread and I don't want to get sidetracked - especially by something that I don't agree with.

 

[cgaviria]

That's not the subject of this thread and I don't want to get sidetracked - especially by something that I don't agree with.

So be it. God will draw whom he draws.

 

[Strong in Him]

When God, or rather, Jesus, said let "us make man in our image", he wasn't speaking to the Father, as Jesus already had the directive from the Father to create man,

So if "Jesus had a directive from the Father to create man" - which is not what Genesis says so you have no way of knowing, but anyway - then Jesus must have been with God at creation. Which is what John says, but which you previously disagreed with.

 

[Strong in Him]

So be it. God will draw whom he draws.

Yes, he already has.

 

[cgaviria]

So if "Jesus had a directive from the Father to create man" - which is not what Genesis says so you have no way of knowing, but anyway - then Jesus must have been with God at creation. Which is what John says, but which you previously disagreed with.

When have I disagreed with Jesus present in the beginning? And yes we have a way of knowing that the words spoken by Jesus were directed by the Father, because it is the Father who indeed created, and he spoke through Jesus, as it is said,

but to us there is one God the father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by him. (I Corinthians 8:6 [ABP])

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

When God, or rather, Jesus, said let "us make man in our image", he wasn't speaking to the Father, as Jesus already had the directive from the Father to create man, he was instead speaking to an angel, commanding him to form man and to breath in him the breath of life. If you notice in the Genesis account, the first utterances in Genesis 1, including this one, were made by "God" alone, but then when you come to Genesis 2, in the more detailed account of the 6th day of the creation of man, you then read that man was formed by "LORD God", which is distinct from just "God" in Genesis 1. This "LORD God", is actually an angel by whom even thousands of years later the Law of Moses was passed down by, as it is said that the Law was indeed given by angels. "LORD" is not the name of the Father, because the Father does not have a name, as he is uncreated, and is referred to as I AM, but rather, the LORD God refers to the highest ranking angel concerning the old covenant of Moses, and then "God" in Genesis 1, refers to Jesus, who is higher than even LORD God, because LORD God himself came into existence by the speech of Jesus, who is referred to as God. So in Jesus saying, "let us", he is indeed referring to himself and to an angel, both of which are also images of the Father. This is why the name of the LORD was no longer used by Jesus, nor even the apostles, because it isn't the name of the Father, but rather, "Jesus", is the new name given to us that is highest above all names, even higher than the name of YHWH, which was given to Moses and is rendered as "LORD".

I went to the links you posted and none of them say Lord God. All i saw was Jehovah God.

I think I will remove myself from this. what i have said I said and I found it in the Holy Scripture. I don't know where you've gotten your information, but from your own links it can't be verified. I am not a theologist but I know when something doesn't sound right so I will wish you the best and listen to the rest of this discussion from the peanut gallery.

 

[cgaviria]

I went to the links you posted and none of them say Lord God. All i saw was Jehovah God.

I think I will remove myself from this. what i have said I said and I found it in the Holy Scripture. I don't know where you've gotten your information, but from your own links it can't be verified. I am not a theologist but I know when something doesn't sound right so I will wish you the best and listen to the rest of this discussion from the peanut gallery.

"LORD God" is how most bibles render the name of God, as you can even see here, http://biblehub.com/genesis/2-7.htm . It is referring to the name of YHWH, which is indeed the name of an angel.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

"LORD God" is how most bibles render the name of God, as you can even see here, http://biblehub.com/genesis/2-7.htm . It is referring to the name of YHWH, which is indeed the name of an angel.

I went to the links you posted and none of them say Lord God. All i saw was Jehovah God.

I think I will remove myself from this. what i have said I said and I found it in the Holy Scripture. I don't know where you've gotten your information, but from your own links it can't be verified. I am not a theologist but I know when something doesn't sound right so I will wish you the best and listen to the rest of this discussion from the peanut gallery.

 

[cgaviria]

I went to the links you posted and none of them say Lord God. All i saw was Jehovah God.

I think I will remove myself from this. what i have said I said and I found it in the Holy Scripture. I don't know where you've gotten your information, but from your own links it can't be verified. I am not a theologist but I know when something doesn't sound right so I will wish you the best and listen to the rest of this discussion from the peanut gallery.

What links that I posted say "Jehovah God"? Jehovah is not the name of YHWH and nothing I have posted affirms this.

 

[civilwarbuff]

When God, or rather, Jesus, said let "us make man in our image", he wasn't speaking to the Father, as Jesus already had the directive from the Father to create man, he was instead speaking to an angel, commanding him to form man and to breath in him the breath of life.

YHWH, which is indeed the name of an angel.

In what translation, your personal one? Yaweh is Elohim, the Lord God not some angel as some such as JW's believe....

 

[cgaviria]

In what translation, your personal one? Yaweh is Elohim, the Lord God not some angel as some such as JW's believe....

I use the apostolic bible polyglot for personal use. Yihweh is indeed God because he was made God by God, but this is not the name of the Father. The Father has no name, and he is referred to as I AM, because he is not created that he should have a name like all created beings do. This is certainly not the teaching of Jehovah's witnesses, as I am certain that they believe "Jehovah" is the name of the Father, which is why they put so much emphasis on using that name, not knowing that it is only referring to a specific angel.

 

[civilwarbuff]

ihweh is indeed God because he was made God by God,

And I am man because I was made man by man.....makes as much sense.

The Father has no name,

Uh....try God

because he is not created that he should have a name like all created beings do.

Which is what JW's teach and you have many times gone down that same path....
If I am wrong then I ask you to state here and now that Jesus was not created, has always existed, and is God. If you will do that, you will have my abject apology.

 

[cgaviria]

And I am man because I was made man by man.....makes as much sense.
Uh....try God


Which is what JW's teach and you have many times gone down that same path....
If I am wrong then I ask you to state here and now that Jesus was not created, has always existed, and is God. If you will do that, you will have my abject apology.

God is not the name of the Father. "God" is a title, not a name. If I call you a "person", that is what you are, but that is not your name. God the Father does not have a name, which is why he is referred to as I AM. The Jehovah's witnesses teach that Jehovah is the name of the Father, which is not true.

However, Jesus was indeed created, hence why he is even called a son of God, a son is birthed, and does not precede a father in existence, nor does a son come at the same time as a father, and since the Father has always existed, therefore the next natural order of sonship is that Jesus did indeed begin, yet he began in the beginning, which is why he was in the beginning, and is called "only son", because he was the only being created directly by the Father, and then all life came through Jesus.

 

[civilwarbuff]

God is not the name of the Father. "God" is a title, not a name. If I call you a "person", that is what you are, but that is not your name. God the Father does not have a name, which is why he is referred to as I AM. The Jehovah's witnesses teach that Jehovah is the name of the Father, which is not true.

However, Jesus was indeed created, hence why he is even called a son of God, a son is birthed, and does not precede a father in existence, nor does a son come at the same time as a father, and since the Father has always existed, therefore the next natural order of sonship is that Jesus did indeed begin, yet he began in the beginning, which is why he was in the beginning, and is called "only son", because he was the only being created directly by the Father, and then all life came through Jesus.

So, you deny the deity of Jesus because no created being can be God....they can only be a created being such as angels or ourselves?

 

[cgaviria]

So, you deny the deity of Jesus because no created being can be God....they can only be a created being such as angels or ourselves?

I am not denying the deity of Jesus, as he is created above all created beings, even angels, hence why his name is the one we use and not the name of YHWH in reference to salvation.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I am not denying the deity of Jesus, as he is created above all created beings, even angels, hence why his name is the one we use and not the name of YHWH in reference to salvation.

A created being cannot be God....are you God....am I....are the angels....no because only God can be God....He cannot create "God" as you suggest.

 

[cgaviria]

A created being cannot be God....are you God....am I....are the angels....no because only God can be God....He cannot create "God" as you suggest.

Created beings can be made God. Just as any son can be given charge over all the affairs of a father. In fact, even Moses was made God by God, as we see in this scripture,

And the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. (Exodus 7:1 [ESV])

So if Moses was made as God over the things concerning the Law, how much more is Jesus made as God since all life came through him?

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

So, you deny the deity of Jesus because no created being can be God....they can only be a created being such as angels or ourselves?

He seems to be a modern day Arian.

However, Jesus was indeed created, hence why he is even called a son of God, a son is birthed, and does not precede a father in existence, nor does a son come at the same time as a father, and since the Father has always existed, therefore the next natural order of sonship is that Jesus did indeed begin, yet he began in the beginning, which is why he was in the beginning, and is called "only son", because he was the only being created directly by the Father, and then all life came through Jesus.

A more correct understanding of the Trinity is that the Father eternally begets the Son in the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 8:6 being a reworked Shema says that "for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist". The language used here is one which opens up the Shema (Hear Oh Israel, the Lord your God the Lord is One) into two persons within the monotheistic landscape. The earliest Christians held what appears to be a Binitarianism. God is eternally the Father in relation to the Son who is eternally begotten of the Father.