Why the Trinity is a False Doctrine

[cgaviria]

Where in the Bible are we told that every believer has their own, individual Holy Spirit? Jesus told his disciples he would send the Holy Spirit to them - one Spirit, not one each

Seems to me that you've built a doctrine on one verse.

Nope, if you read what I posted you'll see why. The identity of holy spirit is that it is indeed an angel that is made into a spirit. It is an angel that inhabits the body of believers.

 

[Strong in Him]

Nope, if you read what I posted you'll see why. The identity of holy spirit is that it is indeed an angel that is made into a spirit. It is an angel that inhabits the body of believers.

That's not Scriptural either.

 

[Albion]

Frankly, I don't see any discussion developing here, just the recitation of a very strange set of ideas borrowed from (probably) a number of different religious groups commonly identified as cults.

And as for "controversial theology," there must have been about a dozen very "controversial" notions packed into the recent run of posts, such that there'd be no way to discuss all of them in a single thread anyway.

 

[cgaviria]

That's not Scriptural either.

It is,

[13] And to which of the angels said he at some time or other? Sit down at my right, until whenever I should put your enemies as a footstool of your feet! [14] Are they not all ministering spirits, being sent in service on account of the ones being about to inherit deliverance?
(Hebrews 1:13-14 [ABP])

And also,

the one making his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire; (Psalms 104:4 [ABP])

And even also, the angel that was sent before the Hebrews was also a holy spirit,

See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; hewill not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him.
(Exodus 23:20-21 [NIV])

But then in Isaiah we read,

But they resisted persuasion, and provoked his holy spirit. And the LORD turned against them for enmity; he waged war against them. (Isaiah 63:10 [ABP])

And even that same type of angel that did not forgive sins is the same type of angel that is holy spirit that also does not forgive sins now.

 

[Strong in Him]

It is,

Angels are created beings. An angel is a messenger from God - I think the word means messenger. They serve God, by ministering to, communicating with, and helping those whom God has created - us.
Gideon saw an angel of the Lord when he was in the winepress. The angel had a message for him about going into battle against the Midianites. Angels visited Mary and Joseph to tell them that Jesus would be born; many angels appeared to the shepherds, to announce that he had been born. In Revelation, each of the churches has an angel, and there are angels around the throne of God.

An angel is not the Holy Spirit; an angel is an angel. The Holy Spirit is always referred to as the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not say that every believer would have their own, individual Holy Spirit, and the Spirit of God is never called an angel.

God's Spirit was with him in the beginning, i.e. the beginning of the universe, not his beginning. God has no beginning. He created everything in the power of the Spirit - including angels.

And even also, the angel that was sent before the Hebrews was also a holy spirit,

God says in this verse that he is sending an angel, not a Holy Spirit. A messenger could be a human being sent by God, not necessarily a celestial being with wings.

 

[Tiny Bible]

It's good to know there's a forum where this topic can be discussed.

I would agree the Trinity is a false teaching. In the Old Testament we're told "our God is one." And that God is a spirit. And Jesus said that when "we" have seen him we have seen the Father.

Of course you realize the teaching is so old that you won't persuade anyone that is deeply enmeshed in that teaching to change their mind. Largely because , and regardless of the fact that Trinity does not appear in scripture, as there is no scripture that says, our God is three, of the fear to change what has been held true for so long.

And that is where God in his grace and mercy will I believe step in and save those who cleave to this falsehood. God knows. And he knows that people have been led wrong for centuries. I believe he will pardon that when people have him in their mind and are indwelt by his Holy Spirit.

Great brave post.

 

[Wgw]

In response to the OP:

As has been mentioned before, and will be mentioned again:

• The doctrine of the Trinity does not depend on the Comma Johanneum, which most Trinitarian theologians regard as spurious.
• There is no manuscript evidence to suggest that Matthew 28:19 has been tampered with; a paraphrase in Eusebius, and a 14th century Rabinnical Jewish translation, do not count.

I will thank the OP for reinforcing my point, however, that the rejection of the Trinity is contrary to canonical Scripture.

 

[cgaviria]

It's good to know there's a forum where this topic can be discussed.

I would agree the Trinity is a false teaching. In the Old Testament we're told "our God is one." And that God is a spirit. And Jesus said that when "we" have seen him we have seen the Father.

Of course you realize the teaching is so old that you won't persuade anyone that is deeply enmeshed in that teaching to change their mind. Largely because , and regardless of the fact that Trinity does not appear in scripture, as there is no scripture that says, our God is three, of the fear to change what has been held true for so long.

And that is where God in his grace and mercy will I believe step in and save those who cleave to this falsehood. God knows. And he knows that people have been led wrong for centuries. I believe he will pardon that when people have him in their mind and are indwelt by his Holy Spirit.

Great brave post.

Yea it is indeed very difficult to get people out of that doctrine. Very sad.

 

[Tiny Bible]

Yea it is indeed very difficult to get people out of that doctrine. Very sad.

I think it's fear that causes people to not want to recognize what scripture actually says because of what they've been told is there instead.
That, if I don't believe exactly so I'll go to Hell, kind of thinking. Yes, very sad.

 

[Fireinfolding]

It is,


And also,


And even also, the angel that was sent before the Hebrews was also a holy spirit,


But then in Isaiah we read,


And even that same type of angel that did not forgive sins is the same type of angel that is holy spirit that also does not forgive sins now.

Just a question, to better understand what you believe is speaking in agreement
(well, in respects to the Holy Spirit)?

Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

Exodus 23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Exodus 23:23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

Isaiah 63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

I didnt see you mention that last one, but is that how you might understand the Holy Spirit (as His or Mine Angel or messenger) to be as He that testifys to Jesus Christ (in the churches)?

Or reflecting that particular one who keeps thee "in the way" (even as Jesus Christ is the way)

If looking here, the wording around this one

Zech 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

How might you consider that one?

Just trying to catch how you might be putting things together.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yea it is indeed very difficult to get people out of that doctrine. Very sad.

Sad?
To believe that the Father is God; that Jesus, his Son, became flesh and walked among us - so that God was walking in our shoes. That we were sinners, godless people, separated from our Creator with no way back; the price we had to pay for our sin was very great and we were spiritually bankrupt, so Jesus offered his own, spotless, life instead. God himself paid the price for our sin, so that we could be clean, forgiven, set free and reconciled to him again. That if we believe this, confess our sins and accept Jesus, we can have God's Holy Spirit - God himself - living inside us; and if we are in Christ, we have every spiritual blessing as well. That one day, when we have finished with this, temporary, decaying, mortal body we will die, but the spiritual life, that has already started in us will continue and we will be with God, in his presence forever?

I think you'll find it's called the Gospel, and is very far from sad; it's the most wonderful, life-changing news ever. I'm not saying that you don't believe the essence of the Gospel, but how does it work without the Trinity? We don't have 3 gods.
If Jesus wasn't God, then it was only a man who died on the cross for us - so how do we know he was dying for us, for our sins, and not his own? If Jesus was only a righteous man and a great teacher, what of his claims that he was one with the Father and that he was crucified for blasphemy, for using the name of God? If Jesus was just a man, or an angel or some kind of spirit, then we have no mediator and no one to intercede for us when we pray - in fact, why even pray? If God is sitting in heaven, untouched by human suffering, indifferent to our needs and only knowing in some theoretical way what it means to be human, how can he help us when we are suffering and being tempted? How can he understand or know what it is like?
If the Spirit isn't God, then the prophets were all lying when they called him "the Spirit of the Lord", as was Jesus when he said that he would send HIS Spirit to live in us. If the Spirit isn't divine and eternal, then he, not it, is created and mortal. Which means that he has no power to tell, or reveal to us, the things of God, or assure us that we are children of God, or enable us to be born again and receive the new birth and new life that Jesus said is necessary to enter the Kingdom of God. It means he hasn't the power to transform us into Jesus' image and likeness (2 Corinthians 3:18), and cannot be the deposit which guarantees our future spiritual inheritance, as taught by Paul, (2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5; Ephesians 1:14.) It means he can't produce godly fruit, or qualities, in us.

God did not create the world, and us in his image, and then leave us to get on with it; He, himself, took on flesh, was born on earth, in Jesus. He Himself experienced all our temptations, hardships, loneliness, betrayals and sufferings and that we were lost in our sin. He did not come among us with a big whip saying "work harder, be better and you might get to God," he came knowing that we would never be perfect and reach God on our own, so he laid down his life for us. Because of Jesus, we can now be "ransomed , healed, restored, forgiven" and have God himself living IN us.
I don't call that sad - if it was, then why would Jesus have told us to go into the world and take that Good News to other nations?

The Father, the Son and the Spirit are all divine, all equal, all eternal, and there is only ONE God? How is that possible unless all 3 are one?

 

[Strong in Him]

I think it's fear that causes people to not want to recognize what scripture actually says because of what they've been told is there instead.

Most of us believe in the Trinity because we know what Scripture says - about the Father, Son and Spirit all being divine and yet there is only One God - and we do believe it.

 

[Goatee]

As i stated before, people twist scripture to suit their beliefs!

 

[Fireinfolding]

Maybe people are still forming their beliefs and are sincere and just because they havent come to the heights of the glory of your particular brand of wisdom doesnt mean they are trying to twist.

Sometimes something might be a reach, or incomplete yet.

I would tell them to go off alone and look at it before the Lord because people will go nuts on them.

I love to see how someone puts together the scripture (even if I might disagree) its beautiful to watch, if there are other forums where people do this I want to be invited its rare around here.

 

[cgaviria]

Just a question, to better understand what you believe is speaking in agreement
(well, in respects to the Holy Spirit)?

Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

Exodus 23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Exodus 23:23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

Isaiah 63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

I didnt see you mention that last one, but is that how you might understand the Holy Spirit (as His or Mine Angel or messenger) to be as He that testifys to Jesus Christ (in the churches)?

Or reflecting that particular one who keeps thee "in the way" (even as Jesus Christ is the way)

If looking here, the wording around this one

Zech 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

How might you consider that one?

Just trying to catch how you might be putting things together.

These angels are holy spirits, that is how I interpret those scriptures. What the trinitarians foolishly don't realize, is that "holy spirit" is a generic name for a being, as like when you call an individual a "person", or call a certain kind a spirit a "demon", or an "unclean spirit", or even an "angel". These are all titles of the kind of being that it is, but the being itself always has a name, the same with holy spirit, it always has an actual name because it pertains to someone specifically, and holy spirit is an angel. This is how holy spirit is able to inhabit the bodies of many men at the same time, not because holy spirit is an omnipresent being, which is a foolish notion for a being that is clearly finite as any created being is, and does not know all things, as it has need to "search the things of God", and "it is also told what to say", and also doesn't know the hour of the coming of Jesus, but because a distinct holy spirit is given to each believer guiding him and catering to his specific needs. And even so, gaining true understanding of what "holy spirit" truly is, do you also gain understanding as to the identity of even other matters, as to who the "spirit of God" that bore upon the water was. What many do not understand is that in the passage of the "spirit of God" being upon the water, is mentioned a great mystery of a being that existed in the beginning of creation that had the form of a "spirit", but the identity of that spirit was not revealed until thousands of years later, when this spirit became incarnate, and we now know this spirit of God that existed beforehand as Jesus Christ, and this spirit of God spoke things in the heaven and on the earth into existence, and also gave breath to man, so Jesus was indeed the "word" of God, but also the giver of life of man as he also breathed into man the breath of life, because Jesus was indeed also a "life giving spirit" beforehand as well. Spirit in fact means "moving air" in the original languages, so these beings are beings of "moving air", they have no form, no shape, and are invisible. This is how they are also able to inhabit the bodies of men, and even also animals, because these two types of flesh inhale breath to live, so these spirits of "moving air" enter into the body through the breath. Our bodies were in fact made to be habitable. At the time of the resurrection of the just, we also, will have this new type of spirit body, which is an angelic body, as Paul even makes mention of this in one of his epistles, and also Jesus says that those of the resurrection of the just will be "like angels", which is why they do not marry, so this coincides with this Zechariah 12:8 prophecy, that indeed those who are chosen for eonian life, will indeed be as angels of the LORD. Yet even so, our new spiritual bodies will have a physical form, not a form of wind, as we are said to inhabit the earth for a thousand years, and we will be seen by those who remain on the earth still in their fleshly mortal form, so this therefore indicates that the form of our new spiritual bodies will be physical, it it will also be immortal, and it will also be glorified.

 

[Imagican]

You do know, at the Council at Nicaea, Arius was 'not' the only Bishop that held the same views of Christ? And these were reading the same scriptures as those that insisted that their views were wrong.

I have found not one line of scripture that would condemn anyone that believes Christ was a 'created' entity. As a matter of 'fact', it's merely a matter of accepting the use of the term 'Son' that points to a time 'before' Christ existed.

While Christ has existed since 'in the beginning', it's obvious that there was a time 'before in the beginning' referred to in the Bible. For if God is eternal, there was obviously 'no in the beginning' pertaining to God.

So, 'in the beginning' is an obvious reference to 'that which pertains to us'. God offers a 'story' about that which took place in the creation of 'that which pertains to us'. And it starts with 'in the beginning'. Which could better be offered as: "In the beginning of that which pertains to the reader". For the story was offered to those 'reading it'.

The idea that Christ was 'created', 'begotten', 'sired', 'made' or whatever term one chooses is not 'made up' by those opposed to either God or Christ. The Bible actually states that Christ was 'begotten'. It was 'men' that came along and tried to alter the meaning of the word 'begotten'.

Christ Himself states that one of the attributes of Himself is: "The beginning of the creation of God". The: 'firstborn' of every creature.

And then consider that Christ is the "Light" of this world. And the first act of creation performed by God was: "Let there be Light".

So it's really not that difficult to see where the idea of Christ, The Son of God, being 'begotten' or 'created' or 'made'. It's actually more Biblical than the idea that Christ is 'equal' to God without a 'beginning'. Men made up this idea of Christ being equal to God. And a pagan Emperor decided that in his Empire, from the day it was determined, all those in his Empire would accept what these 'men' decided to set down on paper as 'law' and requiring all to believe that Christ is equal to God.

So it's not about certain people 'twisting' scripture in order to believe in a 'created' Christ, (begotten if you choose). It's a matter of some simply accepting scripture over what a 'group of men' insisted they were able to determine by actually altering scripture to suit their desired beliefs. "Begotten" means 'begotten' in every use of the term in the entire Bible. It took a certain 'group of men' to come along and insist that it has a 'different meaning' as concerns Christ. The Bible doesn't say that, men created the 'new' definition of 'begotten'. The use of the term in reference to Christ is no different than the use of the term in regards to Cain or Abel being 'begotten'. The only difference would be the manner in which Christ was begotten. The Bible indicates that God simply 'spoke' the Son into existence.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[cgaviria]

You do know, at the Council at Nicaea, Arius was 'not' the only Bishop that held the same views of Christ? And these were reading the same scriptures as those that insisted that their views were wrong.

I have found not one line of scripture that would condemn anyone that believes Christ was a 'created' entity. As a matter of 'fact', it's merely a matter of accepting the use of the term 'Son' that points to a time 'before' Christ existed.

While Christ has existed since 'in the beginning', it's obvious that there was a time 'before in the beginning' referred to in the Bible. For if God is eternal, there was obviously 'no in the beginning' pertaining to God.

So, 'in the beginning' is an obvious reference to 'that which pertains to us'. God offers a 'story' about that which took place in the creation of 'that which pertains to us'. And it starts with 'in the beginning'. Which could better be offered as: "In the beginning of that which pertains to the reader". For the story was offered to those 'reading it'.

The idea that Christ was 'created', 'begotten', 'sired', 'made' or whatever term one chooses is not 'made up' by those opposed to either God or Christ. The Bible actually states that Christ was 'begotten'. It was 'men' that came along and tried to alter the meaning of the word 'begotten'.

Christ Himself states that one of the attributes of Himself is: "The beginning of the creation of God". The: 'firstborn' of every creature.

And then consider that Christ is the "Light" of this world. And the first act of creation performed by God was: "Let there be Light".

So it's really not that difficult to see where the idea of Christ, The Son of God, being 'begotten' or 'created' or 'made'. It's actually more Biblical than the idea that Christ is 'equal' to God without a 'beginning'. Men made up this idea of Christ being equal to God. And a pagan Emperor decided that in his Empire, from the day it was determined, all those in his Empire would accept what these 'men' decided to set down on paper as 'law' and requiring all to believe that Christ is equal to God.

So it's not about certain people 'twisting' scripture in order to believe in a 'created' Christ, (begotten if you choose). It's a matter of some simply accepting scripture over what a 'group of men' insisted they were able to determine by actually altering scripture to suit their desired beliefs. "Begotten" means 'begotten' in every use of the term in the entire Bible. It took a certain 'group of men' to come along and insist that it has a 'different meaning' as concerns Christ. The Bible doesn't say that, men created the 'new' definition of 'begotten'. The use of the term in reference to Christ is no different than the use of the term in regards to Cain or Abel being 'begotten'. The only difference would be the manner in which Christ was begotten. The Bible indicates that God simply 'spoke' the Son into existence.

Blessings,

MEC

You have spoken well on this.

 

[Fireinfolding]

These angels are holy spirits, that is how I interpret those scriptures. What the trinitarians foolishly don't realize, is that "holy spirit" is a generic name for a being, as like when you call an individual a "person", or call a certain kind a spirit a "demon", or an "unclean spirit", or even an "angel". These are all titles of the kind of being that it is, but the being itself always has a name, the same with holy spirit, it always has an actual name because it pertains to someone specifically, and holy spirit is an angel. This is how holy spirit is able to inhabit the bodies of many men at the same time, not because holy spirit is an omnipresent being, which is a foolish notion for a being that is clearly finite as any created being is, and does not know all things, as it has need to "search the things of God", and "it is also told what to say", and also doesn't know the hour of the coming of Jesus, but because a distinct holy spirit is given to each believer guiding him and catering to his specific needs. And even so, gaining true understanding of what "holy spirit" truly is, do you also gain understanding as to the identity of even other matters, as to who the "spirit of God" that bore upon the water was. What many do not understand is that in the passage of the "spirit of God" being upon the water, is mentioned a great mystery of a being that existed in the beginning of creation that had the form of a "spirit", but the identity of that spirit was not revealed until thousands of years later, when this spirit became incarnate, and we now know this spirit of God that existed beforehand as Jesus Christ, and this spirit of God spoke things in the heaven and on the earth into existence, and also gave breath to man, so Jesus was indeed the "word" of God, but also the giver of life of man as he also breathed into man the breath of life, because Jesus was indeed also a "life giving spirit" beforehand as well. Spirit in fact means "moving air" in the original languages, so these beings are beings of "moving air", they have no form, no shape, and are invisible. This is how they are also able to inhabit the bodies of men, and even also animals, because these two types of flesh inhale breath to live, so these spirits of "moving air" enter into the body through the breath. Our bodies were in fact made to be habitable. At the time of the resurrection of the just, we also, will have this new type of spirit body, which is an angelic body, as Paul even makes mention of this in one of his epistles, and also Jesus says that those of the resurrection of the just will be "like angels", which is why they do not marry, so this coincides with this Zechariah 12:8 prophecy, that indeed those who are chosen for eonian life, will indeed be as angels of the LORD. Yet even so, our new spiritual bodies will have a physical form, not a form of wind, as we are said to inhabit the earth for a thousand years, and we will be seen by those who remain on the earth still in their fleshly mortal form, so this therefore indicates that the form of our new spiritual bodies will be physical, it it will also be immortal, and it will also be glorified.

Thanks for sharing that, I will try to look that over, I probably do better with comparisons, that always helps me so much better.

Just say you were comparing (your way) would you compare these (or see these confirming)?

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Im trying to get a feeling for how you compare, I know that might sound weird but would you hear these together?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Someone could critique the nicene creed over a word of two I suppose, for example, this is a partial clip over a word, and it wouldnt be a big deal if it didnt stress the no no in the word, but it would really depend how it was used I would think because both were used in relation to the Lord

(snipped there)

 

[cgaviria]

Thanks for sharing that, I will try to look that over, I probably do better with comparisons, that always helps me so much better.

Just say you were comparing (your way) would you compare these (or see these confirming)?

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Im trying to get a feeling for how you compare, I know that might sound weird but would you hear these together?

Yes, different angels have different commands and different purposes. Not every angel inhabits every man, as there are angels that are given charge to help in other matters that do not require for the angel to be inside the body. We see examples of this in the book of Acts, where while even Paul had a holy spirit inside him, there was another angel that freed him from his prison. There are angels that are given charge over assemblies of God as a whole, and also assigned to people as well. I suspect that the amount of angels probably exists in the billions, which is how the authorities in the heavens, which also now includes Jesus Christ sitting at the right hand of the power, can keep up in being aware of what's going on with the billions of men that exist on the earth, through the hand of these angels that are constantly all around the earth, observing the actions of men, and if any indeed do follow after God.