Why the Demand for Catholic Priest celibacy?

[Albion]

@Albion Thank you And yet, Mary the mother of Jesus was regarded pretty highly.

True enough, but during the "Dark Ages" the way in which ordinary women were seen was at a rather low level, and this seems to have played into the decision to ban marriage for priests in the Western church.

 

[com7fy8]

@Albion That was then. So, now why? Individuals now are deciding not to have priests marry.

 

[Albion]

@Albion That was then. So, now why? Individuals now are deciding not to have priests marry.

You're right that many Catholics think it's time for that change. But there are many who are not in favor of it, too. The point that I was discussing many posts ago was whether or not the change, if it were to be made by the RCC, would pose doctrinal problems. It wouldn't do that because it's not a doctrine but just a policy...and it only applies to the Catholic Church's Western churches. The ones that use some Greek or Arabic rituals do have married priests, just as the Eastern Orthodox do.

Anyway, the bottom line here is that the Papacy will do what it chooses to do with this matter. There is a significant priest shortage in many areas, but the church tries to compensate by using immigrant priests, some members of religious orders, or deacons. All of this seems inadequate to me. However, the Vatican seems to think that the idea of setting their priest-pastors on something of a pedestal and beyond the distractions and responsibilities of family life, etc. still has some merit.

 

[com7fy8]

However, the Vatican seems to think that the idea of setting the priest-pastors above the distractions of family life and etc. still has some merit.

In 1 Corinthians 7 Paul does say how a man and wife can be distracted with each other. But I see this can change as they mature and discover real love. And then, after they have learned how to relate without so much distraction, then is when he is qualified according to the standards of 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

And being in a monastery does not mean you are a person mature in Jesus' love. And how do you learn to love any and all people and live in this world in spite of temptations . . . if you are hiding somewhere in a set circumstance? That can be depending on outward situation, instead of God's grace which made Paul able to live in the real world and still not be overcome by distractions.

As a monastic, you may have overcome depending on certain materials, but this is not the same as learning how to love in a close relationship with another person . . . so then you can love in a more real way with any and all people while staying attentive and submissive and devoted to God, in spite of anything around you.

 

[Albion]

All those arguments have been raised before and they do have merit. While I think there is room for a contrary argument--although not necessarily a better or more convincing one--it's up to the Papacy to decide. Personally, I don't care much. It's their church.

My own has married priests and that doesn't seem to cause any of the problems that Catholics who have grown up thinking that married priests would cause damaging distractions tend to fret about. OTOH, we also don't have homosexual priests and don't shift pastors around from parish to parish in order to cover up their child molestations, either.

 

[Radrook]

I was taught that God is able to make a man able to stay single, if God has chosen him to be a Catholic priest. If you are not able, then don't become a Catholic priest.

In Christ, we do have the gift of celibacy, and it is not forced on someone, nor is it hard. Paul says he wishes that all men were like him > 1 Corinthians 7:7 < to me, this verse means that celibacy and holy matrimony are gifts of God. And Paul was so deeply fulfilled as a celibate, that he wished that all men were like him.

I would say I have sampled that God's love is perfectly satisfying with almighty power to make it easy to stay single and moral, including in my mind. The fruit of the Holy Spirit, ones understand, includes self-control; and if this is in the fruit of the Holy Spirit, it is sweet and gentle and humble, not a struggle of self-imposed trying.

And I will offer that God does not give anyone a drive to want sex with someone the person does not belong with; because God's drives are in His love with His honest perception and guiding. But we all were born in sin, with lusts for pleasure; and these lusts can drive men and women crazy for sexual sensation which is a very nice-feeling and intense treasure for ones who are not being deeply fulfilled in God's love.

But God's love is better, including nicer-feeling . . . in Heaven's own goodness > Psalm 63:3, Psalm 16:11, 1 Timothy 6:17. Paul says that in God's grace he takes "pleasure" . . . during "infirmities", "reproaches", "needs", "persecutions", and "distresses". I see he means how God's grace is the effect of God's own Heaven-quality love in us, perfectly satisfying us even during hard things of circumstance.

So, in God's love it is easy to do without toys for boys stuff. Every Christian needs to grow up, married or single. We, if married, need to mature so we are ready for real loving when our bodies might not be able to do sexual things. And if we do things in God's grace, "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

But a number of Catholic men possibly have become priests without first maturing in God's grace of celibacy. If they have not learned how to walk with Jesus so they have "rest for your souls", you should not judge celibacy by their failure.

I understand that God allows us the choice of celibacy and that some are and some are not cut out for that kind of lifestyle. I also am aware that God can provide the necessary strength for the required self control because I at one time as a very young adult I had imposed that kind of lifestyle on myself and totally depended on God's holy spirit and prayer in order to stay true to my decision.

What I am referring to is the limiting of the church or as Catholics refer to it-Parish shepherding position to only those who are willing to impose celibacy upon themselves. I find no scriptural justification for that requirement.

All that is expected of a Christian shepherd Is that he be a devoted Christian. In fact, as was previously pointed out by another person here on the forum-Paul mentioned that he should be husband of one wife.

Furthermore, if indeed the scripture concerning the foretold prohibition to marry wasn't speaking of Catholic demands for clergy celibacy, then what exactly was the prophecy referring to?

 

[Albion]

All that is expected of a Christian shepherd Is that he be a devoted Christian. In fact, as was previously pointed out by another person here on the forum-Paul mentioned that he should be husband of one wife.

Almost everyone recognizes that passage as asserting that the candidate is to be of high moral character and not an adulterer, serial marry-er, or polygamist. The idea that it requires that he be married, though, is without an historical basis. There were indeed unmarried church leaders in antiquity, even though there were also married ones, such as Peter.

IMHO it's really not possible to craft a convincing argument that clergy MUST be married; and BTW, even the Eastern churches which just about make their priests get married before ordination do not do so for the reason you and com7fy8 presented to us.

 

[Radrook]

Almost everyone recognizes that passage as asserting that the candidate is to be of high moral character and not an adulterer, serial marry-er, or polygamist. The idea that it requires that he be married, though, is without an historical basis. There were indeed unmarried church leaders in antiquity, even though there were also married ones, such as Peter.

IMHO it's really not possible to craft a convincing argument that clergy MUST be married; and BTW, even the Eastern churches which just about make their priests get married before ordination do not do so for the reason you presented to us.

I merely said that a previous poster had mentioned it. As a former member of a denomination which does NOT require its overseers or elders to be married I have never entertained that idea.

 

[Albion]

I merely said that a previous poster had mentioned it. As a former member of a denomination which does NOT require its overseers or elders to be married I have never entertained that idea.

Thanks. I was thinking that I might be mixing the ideas of different posters there.

 

[Galilee63]

Jesus Christ our Merciful Saviour was not married and celibate.
Jesus' Disciples left home travelling with Jesus and were not married and celibate. This continued throughout each Century with Jesus' religious - His Nuns/Saints and His Priests celibate yet married to Christ our Merciful Saviour, God and The Holy Spirit.

Jesus and His Disciples walked and lived in our Lord's Righteousness, one being celibacy. Jesus' Priests and Nuns were taught to do the same through Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit, Saint Peter, Saint Paul, Saint Thomas, and Jesus' other Disciples to date.

…28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of My name will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.…

And Jesus' Disciples left their families and followed Jesus, walking in His Righteousness and teaching His Righteousness.

All the best in our Lord Jesus Christ our Merciful Saviour and our Blessed Virgin Mother of God and Mother

 

[Paidiske]

I can see how a number of pastors now are very involved in politics, meetings, building management, and other items not actually involved in caring for God's people. A number can be administrators, and not really pastors. Ones have been taught a lot of seminary theory about people; it can be hard to practically counsel people to fit with their humanly taught ideas, worthy just tell people they are ok the way they are, or that their deep problems have nothing to do with sin and therefore God is not concerned with correcting their personality troubles. And certain ones might have to work pretty hard to get together a message. And it can be a major disruption of their schedule to have a midweek service with Bible study and prayer. But they can be well trained in pointing out how others are mistaken.

It's a complex role. Just to give you an idea, I currently work a notional four-day week. I also keep pretty close records of how I spend my time. On a recent typical not-very-busy week, I spent:

- About eight hours taking services, including set up and the casual conversations afterwards (three of those were mid-week).

- About six hours in one-on-one pastoral conversation

- About six hours in administration

- Two hours in a parish council meeting and one and a half hours in a staff meeting

- Two hours at a farewell lunch for a colleague

- One hour at the parish book club

- A bit over two hours in sermon preparation

- Two hours to see my spiritual director

- and almost four hours to attend a meeting of a diocesan committee on which I serve.

From what I can tell that's probably not an atypical split of how people end up spending their time. I know when I speak to colleagues all of us are frustrated with the amount of time we spend on admin vs. pastoral care, but the admin doesn't go away just because we would like it to... (and I am reminded of a dear friend and lecturer of mine who used to remind us that good administration is an act of pastoral care; and if we doubted it, we needed only to see how it felt to have our emails ignored or phone calls unreturned. He does have a point!)

Honestly I don't think being married or not is what makes a huge difference to how we are able to deal with the work. However... and it is a big however... cultural norms around clergy spouses have shifted an enormous amount in the last generation or so. Time was when the clergy spouse was the unpaid extra worker in the parish, as well as looking after the children and domestic side of things to free up the clergy person to focus on ministry. These days, the clergy spouse is just as likely to have his/her own career and to expect equal sharing of child rearing and domestic responsibilities, and not to have much time over to give to the parish. This makes the dynamic very very different for my generation of clergy than it was pretty much any time before us, and is, I think, something churches are only just starting to come to grips with.

 

[victorinus]

I think I read that in earlier Roman Catholic history they had married priests.

this post is a good explanation -
it is all about money and time -
a single man is cheaper
a single man has more time for spiritual matters

 

[JacksBratt]

Since marriage is not a sin, why were Catholic priests forced into such a precarious situation? Doesn't common sense tell us that most men who feel forced to accept such a situation will have trouble?

They missed copied the word in the text when the scribe was re writing... it was supposed to be celebrate.....

I know I know.... old joke.

 

[JacksBratt]

Since marriage is not a sin, why were Catholic priests forced into such a precarious situation? Doesn't common sense tell us that most men who feel forced to accept such a situation will have trouble?

In my understanding Paul said that if you are going to work fully for the Lord in your ministry for God and you won't have time to properly function as a responsible husband and/or father, it would be best not to marry. However, if you cannot control our "human" urges for sexual satisfaction, you should be married.

 

[Radrook]

They missed copied the word in the text when the scribe was re writing... it was supposed to be celebrate.....

I know I know.... old joke.

They missed and then copied?
Never herd it before but it's never too late to guff awe. LOL!

 

[com7fy8]

First > @Paidiske Thank you for you effort of accountability and clarification with us

I would care to offer an issue >

- About six hours in one-on-one pastoral conversation

Yes, it can be very good to have one-on-one time with someone who is needy. But it also can be isolating and limiting, where the counseled person is getting attention only during a scheduled time and with the counselor possibly going by general ideas and rules and not truly getting to know the person counseled. And the person needs ongoing sharing with mature Christians as real-life role models >

Peter says, for leaders >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

People being pastored and counseled need God's "examples", so they can feed on the example of our leaders. We need to know someone personally, in public but also in private in order to know their example. Jesus spent time each day with people in their real lives. For only one example, He had Mary who sat at His feet > I would say they had a special relationship, including so she could know Him personally and feed on His example Jesus did things with intimacy, not with a safety pin cushion of professional and theoretical distance. But Jesus is strong enough to be close to people, without becoming emotionally wasted and burnt-out. So we need to first become "strong in the Lord and in the power of His might", as our Apostle Paul does say, in Ephesians 6:10, so we can be stable enough to not let others get the better of us in close involvement. And I understand this is what he means, by saying a man needs to grow up in his own home with his own wife, before he may be just considered for ordination; in close sharing with his wife, he can grow and mature so he knows how to love in close involvement with people > in our Father's family caring and sharing way.

- About six hours in administration

I offer for evaluation >

During administration, then, you can be a good example in spirit, so others can benefit from interacting with you. Also, even if top-heavy hierarchical power is the norm for certain groups and local churches, you can be an example of humility with ministers who are top-heavy-ish > you can reach them with your example of "the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God" (in 1 Peter 3:4), and how you do things in Jesus Christ's "rest for your souls" (in Matthew 11:28-30).

 

[JacksBratt]

They missed and then copied?
Never herd it before but it's never too late to guff awe. LOL!

Sorry should have been miss-copied. Anyway........................a weak attempt at humor.

 

[pdudgeon]

And yet ones have come out and claimed they have been so abused by not being able to marry. So, it would be interesting to go through a re-run of what has really been going on in each of these men's minds . . . starting from when they were clearly told what is the Catholic celibacy thing, to what they were thinking during their at least six years of seminary when they were hearing about this, and to what ever they now are really thinking while claiming they should be allowed to marry.
Each person is unique, though; so I would say each one's mind would reveal some unique things

people do make mistakes. just because someone admires a priest is no call for them to become one themselves.
God creates us and He shapes us according to His wishes.
To some He gives the sacrificial grace to remain celibate, while to others he gives the sacrificial grace to marry. Those who recognize both states as a continual sacrifice are the ones who succeed in their individual callings--whether to remain faithfully celibate or to remain faithfully married.

Where the problem comes in is when those who have been given those gifts begin to listen to the siren song of satan, who tells them that they are made for more, and that the boundaries of either celibacy or of marriage are restricting their free will. And if they listen to that song, then shipwreck of their lives and of those who trusted them is in the offing.
Just because a person fails at one state
does not automatically guarantee that they would succeed in the other.

what most people don't get is that the two--marriage and celibacy--are both connected,
and not opposites at all.
It's not a choice of either/or but of fidelity in both cases that wins God's approval and His blessing.

 

[com7fy8]

@pdudgeon Thank you for your meticulous and caring sharing

just because someone admires a priest is no call for them to become one themselves.

And you are a female, according to your avatar. Too bad some men have not been wise enough to see this. We Jesus men need our ladies, for their tenderly caring and compassionate and patient perspective. So, if you isolate men who are in ministry, by keeping out the abilities and perspective of real Jesus ladies . . . this can be a major mistake!! All members of Jesus' body need all the others; so isolating the men or women can be a problem. I now understand how, by the way, the man needs his lady to help him mature and get real correction so he can become qualified to "take care of the church of God" > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. By having a lady like this who has so helped him . . . when he is pastoring, he will be able to greatly and deeply appreciate how much the women can have to offer!

But I perceive you have been maturing so you can understand things like this. I suspect young ones do not need to be making their choices, on their own.

"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you." (Hebrews 13:17)

By first growing in love with his wife, a man can get her personal input into him and his life and way of relating and ministering in our Father's way of family caring and sharing love > so then he is ready to pastor in our Father's family caring and sharing way . . . like Paul and Silvanus and Timothy did > 1 Thessalonians 2:7 with 1 Thessalonians 2:11.

Of course, Paul and Silvanus and Timothy were not married, that we know of, which feeds into what

To some He gives the sacrificial grace to remain celibate, while to others he gives the sacrificial grace to marry.

We are all called to the same basic way of sacrificial loving >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, our sacrificing needs to be sweet-smelling to God!!! I find, as I grow and discover God's correction, how love is very deeply pure and nicely satisfying and sweetly kind and pleasantly patient even with gentle and nicely quiet joy, even while I am dealing with how people can be wrong. I become more and more encouraging in my attitude and example, having hope in prayer for ones to become kind and personal in love, knowing that only God can make this change. So I sacrifice myself

Those who recognize both states as a continual sacrifice are the ones who succeed in their individual callings--whether to remain faithfully celibate or to remain faithfully married.

Where the problem comes in is when those who have been given those gifts begin to listen to the siren song of satan, who tells them that they are made for more, and that the boundaries of either celibacy or of marriage are restricting their free will.

In marriage and romance, I now understand, I need to leave behind my "toys for boys" interest, and grow in real love > 1 Corinthians 13:11.

And if they listen to that song, then shipwreck of their lives and of those who trusted them is in the offing.

You say, "those who trusted them" > yes, when we go the wrong way, there can be others who are effected by our example. And in case ones see through us, that we are wrong, still there can be the temptation to look down on us and give up on God . . . partly, possibly, because we were not the example they need.

Just because a person fails at one state
does not automatically guarantee that they would succeed in the other.

what most people don't get is that the two--marriage and celibacy--are both connected,
and not opposites at all.

I personally understand that celibacy is for specializing in our First Love Commandment to love the LORD our God with all we've got. And holy matrimony is the helpmate gift of our Second Love Commandment to care as well for our neighbor . . . and neighboring countries . . . as we care about our own selves and ones close to us. And each is a gift which can minister its grace > 1 Peter 4:9-10. The celibate can minister for others to get more devoted to and undistracted from seeking God for Himself. And married couples are in a research laboratory in which they can make break-through discoveries in how to love in a close involvement with another person, then minister their grace to other couples and to celibates and to ones preparing for marriage. They can benefit from the celibate, while they help the celibate in learning how to love more and more personally. Then we all grow up in Jesus who is the best of everything

It's not a choice of either/or but of fidelity in both cases that wins God's approval and His blessing.

I now think that celibates need to share with both men and women, married and single, so we can benefit from what all have to offer. One time, I had been caught up in some very nasty Internet religious posting, and I phoned a nun about it; because a certain especially flagrant flamer claimed to be a female Roman Catholic; and I wanted the perspective of a Catholic female celibate authority, about that. She said, in so many words, "I don't get involved in that; I am busy with praying for the whole world." That expression simply of her example had plenty of authority and perspective to correct and encourage me. So, I know a celibate is not necessarily isolated from reality

Thank you, and God bless you, too

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Since marriage is not a sin, why were Catholic priests forced into such a precarious situation? Doesn't common sense tell us that most men who feel forced to accept such a situation will have trouble?

Luke 18:28-30

28 Hereupon Peter said, And what of us? we have forsaken all that was ours, and followed thee.
29 Jesus said to them, I promise you, everyone who has forsaken home, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children for the sake of the kingdom of God,
30 will receive, in this present world, many times their worth, and in the world to come, everlasting life.

Mark 10:28-30

28 Hereupon Peter took occasion to say, What of us, who have forsaken all, and followed thee?
29 Jesus answered, I promise you, everyone who has forsaken home, or brothers, or sisters, or mother, or children, or lands for my sake and for the sake of the gospel,
30 will receive, now in this world, a hundred times their worth, houses, sisters, brothers, mothers, children and lands, but with persecution; and in the world to come he will receive everlasting life.

Matthew 19:27-29

27 Hereupon Peter took occasion to say, And what of us who have forsaken all, and followed thee; what is left for us?
28 Jesus said to them, I promise you, in the new birth, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of his glory, you also shall sit there on twelve thrones, you who have followed me, and shall be judges over the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every man that has forsaken home, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name’s sake, shall receive his reward a hundredfold, and obtain everlasting life.