Why does Christ tell the churches he's coming "soon" in Revelation?

[LittleLambofJesus]

There has recently been a long debate on the dating of Revelation on CF. There is no consensus regarding an early or later date amongst reputable Christian scholars.

Nothing posted here will sweep the floor with the opposing views.

John
NZ

Nice!

Zep 1:3
“I will sweep away man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea,
and the rubble with the wicked.
I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth,” declares the LORD.

Sweeping the Earth Under the Rug

 

[The Outlier]

Soon is a relative term- especially if you are comparing God's definition of soon to ours. We define soon as now. 1000 years is but a day to Him. But as far as we are concerned, "soon" is a maximum of the end of our life. When we die, that is the end of the world for us.

 

[Achilles6129]

The expectation of a soon return of Christ - was very motivating - just like the expectation on Palm Sunday of Jesus taking his seat in Jerusalem was much more motivating - then Jesus coming to die on the cross.

in Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob,

Again, Christ's statements either mean something or they don't (as already brought up on this thread). I believe they mean something; the question is what.

I find the 4th assembly the most intriguing.
This is where Jesus actually proclaims Himself as the Son of God.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

Reve 2:18
And to the Messenger of the in Thyatira Assembly write!
Now-this is saying the Son of the GOD,
the one having the eyes of Him as flame of fire and the feet of Him like as burnish copper


The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches.......Thyatira means "sweet perfume of sacrifice"

Interesting points. Notice also that the 4th assembly is also the middle of the 7 assemblies.

 

[Achilles6129]

Also, another very interesting thing I noticed about the 7 churches:

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants[a] what must soon take place; he made[b] it known by sending his angel to his servant[c] John," Rev. 1:1 (NRSV)

Now, notice that the purpose of the Revelation is to show his servants the things which must shortly come to pass. Now notice this next passage in Revelation (something I never noticed before):

" 10 I was in the spirit[h] on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11 saying, “Write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamum, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”" Rev. 1:10-11 (NRSV)

Notice how "to show his servants" in v.1 is parallel to "write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches" in v.11. This means that the "servants" in v.1 are the "seven churches" of v.11 and thus that the seven churches of v.11 in fact comprise all the servants throughout the entire church age: in other words, they are the church universal.

 

[A New World]

Also, another very interesting thing I noticed about the 7 churches: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants[a] what must soon take place; he made[b] it known by sending his angel to his servant[c] John," Rev. 1:1 (NRSV) Now, notice that the purpose of the Revelation is to show his servants the things which must shortly come to pass. Now notice this next passage in Revelation (something I never noticed before): " 10 I was in the spirit[h] on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11 saying, “Write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamum, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”" Rev. 1:10-11 (NRSV) Notice how "to show his servants" in v.1 is parallel to "write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches" in v.11. This means that the "servants" in v.1 are the "seven churches" of v.11 and thus that the seven churches of v.11 in fact comprise all the servants throughout the entire church age: in other words, they are the church universal.

If you truly have an open mind and want to consider an out of the traditional box answer, visit the unorthodox theology area. Search the Preterist view which is discussed in various threads. This view understands John's words to be literal considering the time of the fulfillment of the Revelation. You bring up the principle of considering the perspective of the original audiences, the seven churches that existed in the first century. If one takes the time statements literally, it creates a challenge. Preterists have taken that challenge seriously and developed it toward its logical conclusion. Finally, consider the time statements of the passages you mentioned plus the following: Rev. 1:19; 3:10; 22:6-12 from Young's Literal Translation.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Would you rather Jesus just say this? I am going to come in the year 2016.


That would not serve the purpose of the Book of Revelation. All generations are to think that Jesus is coming soon. In fact Jesus preached this message in his life as man.

Matthew 3:2 saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

Matthew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

Matthew 10:7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’

I will give credit to the Baptists for understanding this concept/command.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Would you rather Jesus just say this? I am going to come in the year 2016.

Oh wait didn't Jesus say he does not know the day of his coming?

 

[A New World]

It is very interesting that Christ says at the end of the book of Revelation that he is coming soon (or quickly) three times (Rev. 22:7, 12, 20).

I find it even more interesting that the book of Revelation consistently posits the time of the events as "about to be, near and soon."

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that MUST SOON take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for THE TIME IS NEAR.

Revelation 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that ARE [ABOUT] TO take place after this.

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is [ABOUT TO BE] coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what MUST SOON take place."

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for THE TIME IS NEAR.

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming SOON, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done."

Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming SOON." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

For John and his audiences the time is CONSISTENTLY and ONLY posited as near, there is never a hint of the time being far off.

Does that mean God communicates time only using ambiguous and vague language as some imagine?

He was certainly able to inform Daniel and his audience the time was NOT near, not to be fulfilled in their lifetime:

Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

Daniel 12:9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

Daniel 12:13 "But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days."

Conclusion: Daniel's words were sealed until "the time of the end." However, "the end of days" had drawn near at the time John penned the words of the Revelation. Remember, the book of Revelation was NOT sealed because the time was NEAR (22:10). "The shattering of the power of the holy people" and the end of the Mosaic age arrived in AD 70!

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.

 

[A New World]

Oh wait didn't Jesus say he does not know the day of his coming?

We know Jesus said:
"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only" (Mt. 24:36).

But, does that mean no one could ever know the time when that day or hour would draw near? It could be that Jesus was saying no one currently KNOWS but I am giving you signs so you WILL KNOW as the day draws near.

Later on in that generation the inspired writers seemed to indicate the time had drawn near:

Peter: "The end of all things is near; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers" (1 Pet. 4:7).

James: "You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near" (James 5:8).

John: "Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour" (1 John 2:18).

Paul: "The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light" (Rom. 13:12).

 

[Bible2]

ShouldaWouldaCoulda said in post 6:

Scripture tells us no man knows the coming of the Lord.

Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36); he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and preterist views), then how can we also claim he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim the first verse means no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim the second verse means no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

 

[Bible2]

Achilles6129 said in post 1:

"3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you." Rev. 3:3 (NIV)

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3:3 was addressed to the literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Sardis (Revelation 3:1) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) regarding Jesus visiting that congregation spiritually (not physically) in judgment if it didn't repent. Compare 1 Corinthians 5:3, where the apostle Paul said he had judged someone in a congregation by his spiritual presence despite his being absent from that congregation physically. Revelation 2:5 and Revelation 2:16 can be understood in this same, spiritual sense with regard to the literal, local church congregations in Ephesus and Pergamos.

Also, regarding Revelation 2:25, it didn't require Jesus would ever actually come physically before the first century AD members of the literal, local church congregation in Thyatira died off, just as, for example, Matthew 5:18 didn't require heaven and earth had to pass away before Jesus abolished the letter of the Old Covenant law, which he did on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6). Also, the first century AD city of Thyatira still exists today as a thriving city in Turkey, where Christians still live. So Revelation 2:25 can include an encouragement to Christians living in that city still today to keep the faith until Jesus' physical, 2nd coming, whether or not they die before it actually happens.

Achilles6129 said in post 1:

"11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown." Rev. 3:11 (NIV)

Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

While Revelation 3:10 (like Revelation 2:10) was fulfilled in the 1st century AD, Jesus' 2nd coming spoken of in Revelation 3:11 hasn't yet been fulfilled. For it won't occur until Revelation 19:7-21, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Also, even though some 2,000 years will have passed between the time that Revelation 3:11 was spoken in the 1st century AD and the time of the fulfillment of the 2nd coming in our future, Jesus will still come "quickly" (Revelation 3:11), just as all of the preceding events of the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after the apostle John saw his Revelation vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only 2 days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

Achilles6129 said in post 1:

Several of the passages (Rev. 3:11, Rev. 2:24-25) seem to be referring to his second coming . . .

Regarding his 2nd coming, Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his first coming he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be physically resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[Bible2]

A New World said in post 26:

How can anyone claim the end was not near for John and his audiences when he informed them that the appointed time was near?

In Revelation 1:1,3, as in Revelation 22:6,10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming. I.e., shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

Also, from the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only 2 days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

--

A New World said in post 30:

The term "thousand years" appears in the midst of other figurative terms. "The key of the bottomless pit," the "great chain in his hand," . . .

Amillennialism mistakenly claims that the "thousand" in Revelation 20:4-6 can't be literal, but must be only symbolic of fullness/completion, like in Psalms 50:10. But in the Bible, "thousand" can be literal (e.g. Numbers 31:4-6, Numbers 35:4, Judges 20:10; 2 Kings 15:19; 1 Chronicles 19:6, Song of Songs 8:11, Revelation 20:2-7).

Amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of full preterism (2 Timothy 2:18). For claiming that the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 is already present requires that Jesus' 2nd coming has already happened. For the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 won't happen until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Also, amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of partial preterism. For claiming that the resurrection of those beheaded by the Antichrist during the future tribulation and their subsequent reigning on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) is already present, requires that the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year worldwide reign during the tribulation (Revelation 13:4-18) has already happened. Also, amillennialism is mistaken because it requires that the devil is currently bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-6), when in fact he is currently walking around on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8), and he won't be bound until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19 to 20:3).

A New World said in post 30:

The term "thousand years" appears in the midst of other figurative terms. "The key of the bottomless pit," the "great chain in his hand," . . .

The binding of Satan by an angel in Revelation 20:1-3, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3), will involve Satan being bound with a literal, spiritual chain, just as the bottomless pit, which at that time Satan will be cast down into and locked within, is a literal, spiritual place.

In Job 33:22, the original Hebrew word (shachath: H7845) translated as "the grave" can be translated as "the pit" (Job 33:28,30), meaning the extremely deep pit which is in hell/sheol (Isaiah 14:15, Psalms 30:3, Job 11:8), in the sides of which pit are the graves of the conscious souls of the unsaved dead (Isaiah 14:15,9,10, Ezekiel 32:21-23), who experience pain there (Psalms 116:3). This pit is in the "nether" (the lowermost, Hebrew: tachtiy: H8482) parts of the earth (Ezekiel 32:18-32, Psalms 63:9), and so it could reach down to the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). And it could continue past the center of the earth and continue on in a straight line up the other side of the earth almost to the surface, so that the pit is "bottomless" in that its lowest point is empty space at the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). Satan/Lucifer will be cast into this literal "bottomless pit" by an angel at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Isaiah 14:15,12).

The bottomless pit may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the bottomless pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). At one point during the first half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, strange locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10).

A New World said in post 30:

. . . "the dragon," "the old serpent," "the seal on him," "the beast," "the mark on their forehead and their hand," etc. should not be taken literally.

Satan is a literal, 7-headed, red, serpentine dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), also called Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1, Psalms 74:14, Job 41:1,34), who could have begun his existence as a dinosaur born some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. Over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved (or been miraculously granted by God) to have consciousness as we know it. And his 7-headedness, which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world. As he grew up as a conscious dinosaur, Leviathan could have come to know and worship God with all of his heart. God could have then granted him immortality and taken him into heaven to serve God as a cherub. Cherubim are a type of angelic being (Ezekiel 10) which could include individuals shaped like different animals, like how seraphim are a different type of angelic being (Isaiah 6:2-3) which includes individuals shaped like different animals (Revelation 4:7-8). As a cherub in heaven, Leviathan could have been assigned to the office of "the morning star", and so been given the name "Lucifer" (which means "the morning star").

After spending some 66 million years in heaven as a very contented cherub, perhaps even as one of the greatest angelic beings in heaven, Lucifer could have been assigned by God to go to the earth to be a "covering cherub" over the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-14), to watch over that special, local garden and its special, individual humans named Adam and Eve miraculously created by God only some 6,000 years ago. God could have also at that time given the as-yet-unfallen Lucifer authority over all the rest of the earth (cf. Luke 4:5-6). But Lucifer could have chafed at his new assignment, seeing it as wholly beneath his dignity. He could have felt like a long-time chief of staff of a U.S. President would feel if he were suddenly assigned by the President to leave his high position in the White House to go baby-sit two pet salamanders in a hothouse in Alaska.

From Eden, Lucifer could have repeatedly requested God to let him return to his high position in heaven, only to be refused, until Lucifer in his heart fell into rebellion against God, and vowed to himself that eventually he would ascend back into heaven and take rule over all the angelic beings there, regardless of what God wanted (Isaiah 14:13-14). And so the fallen Lucifer became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18), which means the "Adversary". While still in Eden, as possibly his first act of open rebellion against God, Satan decided to deceive Eve into disobeying God (Genesis 3), knowing that this would result in her (and her offspring) becoming mortal (Genesis 2:17).

A New World said in post 30:

. . . "the dragon," "the old serpent," "the seal on him," "the beast," "the mark on their forehead and their hand," etc. should not be taken literally.

The "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2) will be a literal, physical mark which will be visible to people, so they can easily tell in every situation whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17). It will be visible also because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads. Also, it will be placed on people probably by scarification. For in Revelation 13:16, one of the definitions of the original Greek word (charagma: G5480) translated as the "mark" is "a scratch or etching" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), and scarification is the scratching or etching (i.e. the cutting) of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason that people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had just been shown previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they are loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

The mark will consist of only the Antichrist's name "or" some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and a representation of the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hand (probably on the palm) "or" on the forehead (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hand of some people and on the forehead of other people.

Those who refuse to receive the Antichrist's mark won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the Antichrist's mark or worship him or his image, for those people who agree to do these things, even if they are Christians, will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), while those Christians who refuse to do these things, even though they will be beheaded, will subsequently be physically resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the obedient church of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death, their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palm, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have their loved ones' initials placed by scarification on their palm (cf. also Isaiah 49:16, Jeremiah 48:37, Leviticus 19:28, Leviticus 21:5). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their forehead, thinking (mistakenly) that they are fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the forehead of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one to cause everyone to be marked with the Antichrist's mark (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned. (But he won't say that he is Christ, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)

Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hand or forehead, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hand or forehead. But because some people could refuse to have "666" placed on their body, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", or "111", or "WWW", or "VVV", or "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", or a "1", and it is transliterated into English as either a "W" or a "V". Also, 2 thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" has a numerical value of 6 in English gematria.

In an awful coincidence (or maybe it is not just a coincidence), "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb which the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will employ to burn up the cities of the nations at the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 17:12,16,17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?

The "WWW" which has been placed on many internet addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has been placed across many UPC codes on products (i.e. they have a "||" at the beginning, middle, and end of their UPC codes), are harbingers of when Lucifer will give the Antichrist ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2b; cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist placing his "brand" on everything, like how a rancher places his "brand" on all of his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name: 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some internet addresses having a "WWW", nor by some products having "|| || ||" on their UPC codes. For Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people will be given the Antichrist's mark, on either their right hand or forehead.

 

[Bible2]

A New World said in post 30:

IMHO the best way to interpret Revelation is to see all of the prophesied events from the time statements in chapter one to those in chapter twenty two as occurring within their generation just as Jesus said. (Mt. 24:34)

Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation, and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34; cf. Matthew 21:19,43, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b; 1 Peter 2:9, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

--

A New World said in post 39:

Since Revelation is about the judgment of the harlot, OC Israel, it is about the works of satan in the last days. The context is the end of the age which arrived in AD 70.

Note that while the corrupt aspects of 1st century Israel are included in what Revelation's symbolic harlot "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of 1st century Israel. For 1st century Israel just by itself didn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor was 1st century Israel the only place where people bought merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor had 1st century Israel just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor had 1st century Israel been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

In Revelation 11:8, the great city is Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified. But in Revelation 21:10, the great city is New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven. And in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18, and Revelation 18:10-21, the great city is the symbolic harlot/city of Babylon. When it is destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3), unlike Jerusalem, which was found again after its only-temporary destruction in 70 AD.

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

A New World said in post 39:

The context is the end of the age which arrived in AD 70.

"... what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matthew 24:3).

In Matthew 24:3, the original Greek word (aion: G0165) translated as "world" can be translated as "age" (Ephesians 2:7, Colossians 1:26).

It is sometimes claimed the end of the age refers to the end of the Old-Covenant age in 70 AD. But the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended not at the destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a), and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

Also, while the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur at the destruction of the 2nd temple, or (as is sometimes claimed) before the future tribulation, or even at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

A New World said in post 39:

Later, James confirmed His Word in a parallel passage (James 5:7-9).

The holy scripture of James 5:8-9 must be understood from the viewpoint of God, not of any man (2 Peter 3:8-9; 2 Peter 1:20-21), because Jesus' 2nd coming has never happened.

-

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation coming of Jesus and rapture (gathering together) of the church, which won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-21). But the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 wasn't so much countering pre-tribulation rapturism as he was countering full preterism. Full preterism mistakenly says the day of the Lord (Christ) is already at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2), in the sense of already present, that the 2nd coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the church is already a present reality (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism, for it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some believers (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

--

A New World said in post 69:

Peter: "The end of all things is near; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers" (1 Pet. 4:7).

1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Because the end of all things has never happened, the "at hand" in 1 Peter 4:7 can be understood from the viewpoint of God, for whom a thousand years are like a day (2 Peter 3:8-9).

The end of all things (1 Peter 4:7) won't occur until about 3,000 AD, when, after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), heaven (the 1st heaven, the sky/atmosphere) and the earth (its surface) will be literally burned up (2 Peter 3:10) before the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) and the subsequent creation of a new heaven (atmosphere) and earth (surface) (Revelation 21:1-8).

1 Peter 4:7 means Christians living at any time before this happens should live godly lives (2 Peter 3:11-18).

A New World said in post 69:

John: "Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour" (1 John 2:18).

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 2:18's last time, or "hour" (original Greek), has been going on for the last 2,000 years, just as the "hour" of everyone's still-future, physical resurrection (John 5:28-29) will span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'd like you to consider the following passages:

"16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth." Rev. 2:16 (NIV)

"24 Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, 25 except to hold on to what you have until I come.’" Rev. 2:24-25 (NIV)

The above passage is extremely interesting because Christ is clearly talking personally to the historical church of Thyatira (though it may also represent the church universal) due to the fact that he has personal things to say to that church that could only apply to it historically. Yet here he is telling the church to hold on until he comes. This is a very interesting passage.

"3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you." Rev. 3:3 (NIV)

"11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown." Rev. 3:11 (NIV)

Exactly what "coming" is Christ referring to? Several of the passages (Rev. 3:11, Rev. 2:24-25) seem to be referring to his second coming, though the others might be able to be taken has a coming in judgment or something like that. We then have the fact that at the end of the book of Revelation Christ clearly says he is coming soon (Rev. 22:12). Regardless, the passages are perplexing.

Thoughts?

I wonder if the NIV may not be misleading for Rev 2:16 and Rev 3:11. Consider how those verses are translated in the NAB.

Revelation 2:16 NAB Therefore, repent. Otherwise, I will come to you quickly and wage war against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 3:11 NAB I am coming quickly. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one may take your crown.​

The first appears to be Christ coming to judge and punish the errant members of the church. The second is ambiguous because it could mean the Christ will come to rescue the persecuted faithful christians in the church or it could be Christ coming to bring the time of trial that will come to the world. It is not clear if either passage is intended to mean the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ which marks the end of this world and the last judgement of mankind.

 

[A New World]

It's been a while since I've posted to the forum. I mistakingly posted my response here thinking I was in the controversial or unorthodox area. If you will allow me I will only respond to one point made by Bible2.

I don't agree with the idea that we can dismiss the multiple time statements made throughout the New Testament by quoting 2 Peter 3:8 -But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Peter previously informed this same audience:
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

To me, it's illogical to think that Peter would tell those of the Diaspora that the end was near, then later imply that his words were possibly irrelevant to them but were actually from God's perspective.

The purpose of 2 Peter 3 was to remind his audience of the words of the prophets and apostles concerning the last days and the coming of the Lord (3,4). It was the scoffers who denied the imminent judgment and the end of the age. Peter and his audience knew they were living in the last days (1 Pet. 1:5,20).

When Peter indicated that with God one day is as a thousand years a thousand years as one day, he directed that toward the scoffers. Though the promise of God's judgment on Israel had been given to the fathers many years prior, the time had then drawn near (1 Pet. 4:17).

Question: Will we stand with Peter (1 Pet. 4:7,17), or with the scoffers (2 Pet. 3:4)?

 

[Bible2]

A New World said in post 75:

The purpose of 2 Peter 3 was to remind his audience of the words of the prophets and apostles concerning the last days and the coming of the Lord (3,4).

The "last days" began in the 1st century AD with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

-

Regarding 2 Peter 3:10-13, in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the 1st heaven: the sky/atmosphere) and the earth (its surface) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3).

But the day of the Lord won't immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface. For the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his 2nd coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least 7 more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' 2nd coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord. For it is not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

A New World said in post 75:

Peter and his audience knew they were living in the last days (1 Pet. 1:5,20).

Regarding 1 Peter 1:5, note that the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

Similarly, regarding 1 Peter 1:20, note that the original Greek word (chronos: G5550) translated there as "times" can also refer to quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in Acts 17:30 and Galatians 4:4 to refer to the "times" or "time" before the preaching of the gospel, which was thousands of years.

A New World said in post 75:

Though the promise of God's judgment on Israel had been given to the fathers many years prior, the time had then drawn near (1 Pet. 4:17).

Note that in 1 Peter 4:17, the judgment of the house of God refers not to a judgment of unbelieving Israel, but the judgment of "us", the church, which won't occur until Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming.

Some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

A New World said in post 75:

Though the promise of God's judgment on Israel had been given to the fathers many years prior, the time had then drawn near (1 Pet. 4:17).

Regarding 1 Peter 4:17, note again (as was pointed out above) that the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to quite a long period.

A New World said in post 75:

Question: Will we stand with Peter (1 Pet. 4:7,17), or with the scoffers (2 Pet. 3:4)?

2 Peter 3:3-4 refers to those who would, for example, mockingly point to Jesus' 1st century AD promise in Revelation 22:20 to return quickly, not realizing that from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only 2 days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Jesus' 2nd coming from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

Also, just as the heaven and earth which "were of old" (2 Peter 3:5-6) were the literal 1st "heaven" (the sky/atmosphere, in which the birds fly: Genesis 1:20) and the literal "earth" (the dry land) which God created in Genesis 1:7-10, and which "perished" in Noah's flood (2 Peter 3:5-6, Genesis 6:13-21), so the heaven and earth "which are now" (2 Peter 3:7), and which will perish in our future by fire instead of flood (2 Peter 3:7-12), are the earth's present atmosphere and surface. And so the new heaven and earth, which the church is still waiting for (2 Peter 3:13) -- because the new heaven and earth (Revelation 21:1) won't be made until after the never-fulfilled events of Revelation chapters 6 to 20 -- will be a new atmosphere and surface for the earth.

That is, the "old" heaven and earth perished at the time of Noah's flood (2 Peter 3:5-6), which was over 1,000 years before the Old Covenant Mosaic law was established in Exodus. The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments was abolished the moment Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). Matthew 5:18 refers to the literal heaven and earth "which are now" (2 Peter 3:7), and which will be literally burned up in our future (2 Peter 3:7-12).

So the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 are physical, just as the heaven and earth in 2 Peter 3:10,12 are physical. 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the New Testament where the Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the New Testament where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all.

 

[A New World]

Soon is a relative term- especially if you are comparing God's definition of soon to ours. We define soon as now. 1000 years is but a day to Him. But as far as we are concerned, "soon" is a maximum of the end of our life. When we die, that is the end of the world for us.

But the inspired writers almost always identified their audiences! They didn't appear to be speaking or writing in general terms of events that may or may not be imminent.

I don't think the question is how we define "soon." It's how those to whom the imminent time statements were made defined it.

The New Testament is not the Father communicating with the Son, or the trinity discussing the distant future amongst themselves. As far as I can tell, by applying any rule of interpretation, God was communicating to specific audiences through His inspired messengers.

 

[clemenslee]

I will use this as my input, really just for maybe some insight not that it really answers the question. I find it quite interesting that John in rev. 1 V3 says the time is at hand , and Rev. 22v10 says not to seal the book for the time is at hand. Now, nobody studies revelation without also studying the book of Daniel. Daniel 12 he is told to seal the book (the book of Daniel) till the time of the end!

 

[MoreCoffee]

I will use this as my input, really just for maybe some insight not that it really answers the question. I find it quite interesting that John in rev. 1 V3 says the time is at hand , and Rev. 22v10 says not to seal the book for the time is at hand. Now, nobody studies revelation without also studying the book of Daniel. Daniel 12 he is told to seal the book (the book of Daniel) till the time of the end!

Yes, the time was at hand 2,000 years ago for saint John and it was not yet the time of the end for saint Daniel the prophet 2,500 years ago. Leaves one wondering how long "at hand" and "soon" can get doesn't it?

Still, God is faithful and true and soon means soon in an eternity of timelessness rather than soon in a 70 to 80 year life span ...

 

[A New World]

Still, God is faithful and true and soon means soon in an eternity of timelessness rather than soon in a 70 to 80 year life span ...

Or...God was faithful to those to whom the imminent messages were given and soon meant soon in the normal sense to that generation...

It's a perspective that's at least worth pursuing instead of rejecting it without consideration...

Even if one eliminates it as a possibility it's a very interesting study.