Why does Christ tell the churches he's coming "soon" in Revelation?

[clemenslee]

Yes, the time was at hand 2,000 years ago for saint John and it was not yet the time of the end for saint Daniel the prophet 2,500 years ago. Leaves one wondering how long "at hand" and "soon" can get doesn't it?

Still, God is faithful and true and soon means soon in an eternity of timelessness rather than soon in a 70 to 80 year life span ...

I do agree, I believe Daniel was sealed till a time appointed. so that we in our time can look at what history has laid out for us to see to our current time and know when not the Day of Christ return but even when its at the door. To give warning and spread the message of Christs return. Now for me I look at the way God has dealt with man in the following ages. Era Before the flood, Flood -->Christ, Christ-->to his return. The last includes what I believe the time of the gentiles, which I believe is over, and that leaves only 1 other time period and thats the Time of the end as the Book of Daniel proclaimed. John in the Book of Revelation was not sealed because it dealt in broad strokes the time from Christ to His return. Which is why John was told not to seal the book up!

 

[Bible2]

A New World said in post 77:

I don't think the question is how we define "soon." It's how those to whom the imminent time statements were made defined it.

Note that what even the original writers-down of the "Jesus is coming back soon" scriptures may have mistakenly thought was meant by "soon" wasn't determinative of what those scriptures actually mean, because of 2 Peter 1:20-21 and 2 Peter 3:8-9.

 

[Bible2]

clemenslee said in post 78:

Daniel 12 he is told to seal the book (the book of Daniel) till the time of the end!

The "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time that Revelation was written in the 1st century AD. Therefore, "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' first coming and his crucifixion for our sins.

So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' first coming and the writing of Revelation, going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what is going to happen in our future by seeing how much these 2 books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) contradict that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers only to the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" which Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which haven't been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the church's physical resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), while Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the 1st century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).

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clemenslee said in post 81:

The last includes what I believe the time of the gentiles, which I believe is over . . .

The treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos: G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 refers to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos: G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Similarly, when Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the tribulation, right before Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Romans 11:26).

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

 

[clemenslee]

The treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos: G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 refers to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos: G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

While I don't think this is the probably the proper place to debate this topic, I do think what you stated raises some points I believe needs a honest look. I agree "Times" in Luke 21:24 is Kairos, but it gives no set definition for how long, it just means set-time, opportune time, season. Now when you look at Daniel 7, and Daniel 12, especially in Daniel 12, he himself did not understand what the time, times and half meant. If Daniel understood what time, times and half meant he would have been able to understand that the time, times and half would 3.5 years, assuming that Daniel understood the 70th week to be 7 years but he didn't and asked the angle the meaning of it, but no he was told to seal it up, till the time of the end. Daniel is written in two different languages (I'm no linguistic expert by any means lol) Aramaic and Hebrew. In Daniel 7 is in Aramaic and Time is Iddan - set-time, moment. , Daniel 12 is Moed in hebrew - appointed time or set time. So why do we assume that time automatically refers to a year, none of those words give it that definition, but can we find a definition of "time", I believe we can. I find it quite interesting you referenced 2 peter 3:8 in a previous post, in 2 Peter 3:8, a day with Lord is as a thousand years. Day is hemera in greek- it can mean day, moment, period, season and time. The translators chose the word day because it was commonly used during that time period. No commentary I'v read agrees that it should be day, but they all agree that it is a Time in length as a 1000 years, look it up. Some even say a unspecified amount of time is a thousand years. So, i'm sure you see were I'm going, time=1000yrs. Now time and times, and dividing of time is quite interesting in the way its written. Its called a idiom, which is a peculiar phrase related to a certain language or culture. Example would be I feel under the the weather, if you know english you would know that I'm saying I'm sick, but to somebody who doesn't know english very well, they would give you the crazy eye LOL. Its the same as the following Hebrew idioms: Job 33:14- For God speaketh once, yea twice yet man perceive it not., Job 40:5 - Once I have spoken, but I will not answer: yeah twice, but I will proceed no further, Psalms 62:11 - God has spoken once, twice I have heard this, that power belongeth to God. As you can see they folllow the same idiomatic style, so you would not have 1+2+.5=3.5, you would have 1+1+.5=2.5, "times" in Daniel 7, and 12 is only one more not 2 more. and if time=1000, then we would have 1000+1000+500=2500 years.

I Daniel 7 its the 1st year of Belshazzar reign in 552bc. Daniel is given the visions of the 4 Gentile beasts/kingdoms that would occupy the Holy Land Israel and the middle east. And also its mainly concerning the Jews, and in verse 25 we come to the first time, times, and half or 2500 years. In 1948 Israel became a nation for the first time in 2500 years. 1948-2500=552BC. you might think that is just coincidence, but I think not. for 2500 years the holy land was ruled by Gentile kingdom, and overnight after WW2 the became a nation no longer under Gentile Kingdoms. I believe history proves Gods word. Lets look at the second time, times and half. Daniel 12 is now concerning the Holy city and capital Jerusalem, and also the scattering of the power of the Holy people the JEWS. Daniel 12 was in the third year of Cyrus. 533BC. In 1967 the Jews recalaimed Jerusalem as their Capital and holy city. and now is no longer under Gentile rule! That was the first time in 2500 yrs. 1967-2500=533 BC. Again I believe history proves Gods word. We cant argue about what has taken place in 1948, and 1967 as fulfilled prophecy. They are no longer under Gentile Governmental Rule. The Jews, and their power were scattered through out the nations for 2500 yrs.

So to conclude for me at least, i'm thoroughly convinced that's why Daniel was sealed till the time of the Gentiles was over. So that we in our time can see it in our history as marker to let us know that we are in the time of the end and that our Lord is knocking at the Door in his Return! We might not agree, but i would like everybody to keep searching and looking for his return. For Blessed are they that keep watch, and read and listen and search out about his coming AMEN!

 

[Achilles6129]

The only thing that I can think of is that humanity's definition of "time" must be way off in order for the book of Revelation to be true. I don't find this to be implausible at all, particularly considering Einstein's Theory of Relativity.

 

[thecolorsblend]

It is amusing that the branch of Christianity most associated with literalism has redefined so many straight forward words. "Soon" means "later", "quickly" means "slowly", "near" means "distant" and so on. Ironic, really.

 

[A New World]

The only thing that I can think of is that humanity's definition of "time" must be way off in order for the book of Revelation to be true. I don't find this to be implausible at all, particularly considering Einstein's Theory of Relativity.

I don't think it's humanity's definition of time we should be considering. If we're attempting to interpret Scripture we should be thinking in terms of the relevance to the original audiences. It seems apparent to me that God was communicating to people through inspired writers. So, God was informing specific people during a specific time that the end of the Mosaic age had drawn near. The destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, and everything associated with the Old Covenant came to a cataclysmic end in AD 70. That's the context of Revelation...it was related to their covenant world not the physical planet.

 

[Achilles6129]

What about the physical return of Christ and the final judgment shown in Revelation?

 

[A New World]

What about the physical return of Christ and the final judgment shown in Revelation?

Because of the time frame and the spiritual nature of the New Covenant kingdom there was no intention of a physical return. Revelation is about the end of the Old Covenant age, the judgment of the harlot, and the revelation of the New Jerusalem, the bride (body) of Christ, the church. This was all accomplished by AD 70.

 

[Achilles6129]

Because of the time frame and the spiritual nature of the New Covenant kingdom there was no intention of a physical return. Revelation is about the end of the Old Covenant age, the judgment of the harlot, and the revelation of the New Jerusalem, the bride (body) of Christ, the church. This was all accomplished by AD 70.

I see. And when exactly were the plagues in the book of Revelation poured out? Why doesn't Revelation specify that it's talking only about the Jews in 70 AD? And why does Christ's Olivet Discourse predict a physical return?

 

[Achilles6129]

It is amusing that the branch of Christianity most associated with literalism has redefined so many straight forward words. "Soon" means "later", "quickly" means "slowly", "near" means "distant" and so on. Ironic, really.

Not the case at all. The fact of the matter is that time is literally relative. If I'm out at the surface of a black hole and I look down at my watch, what 10 minutes is to me might be thousands of years back here on earth. So it would be "soon" by my version of time, but a long time by someone else's timepiece.

 

[thecolorsblend]

So it would be "soon" by my version of time, but a long time by someone else's timepiece.

To continue your metaphor, if you're making a guesstimate as to your time arrival for that person, your own frame of reference is the most irrelevant, particularly if you don't outright say so in plain literal terms in the context of promises made in other plain literal terms... especially when that's the most salient piece of information in the entire discourse.

 

[Achilles6129]

To continue your metaphor, if you're making a guesstimate as to your time arrival for that person, your own frame of reference is the most irrelevant, particularly if you don't outright say so in plain literal terms in the context of promises made in other plain literal terms... especially when that's the most salient piece of information in the entire discourse.

I would argue that he does say so. Remember that the 1000 years are a part of the "soon" mentioned in the book.

Another interesting thing is that the "soon" language echoes similar language in the Old Testament.

 

[A New World]

I would argue that he does say so. Remember that the 1000 years are a part of the "soon" mentioned in the book.

Another interesting thing is that the "soon" language echoes similar language in the Old Testament.

Can you provide those Old Testament passages in which the original audiences were promised something near and soon by the prophets yet the fulfillment did not actually occur for a very long time?

It should be easy since the OT was written over a period of about a thousand years while the NT was written in about twenty.

 

[Achilles6129]

Can you provide those Old Testament passages in which the original audiences were promised something near and soon by the prophets yet the fulfillment did not actually occur for a very long time?

It should be easy since the OT was written over a period of about a thousand years while the NT was written in about twenty.

"Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision." Joel 3:14 (NASB)

"6 For thus says the Lord of hosts, little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land. 7 I will shake all the nations; and they will come with the wealth of all nations, and I will fill this house with glory,’ says the Lord of hosts." Hag. 2:6 (NASB)

 

[rockytopva]

Keep in mind that 80 years is a long time for us... A very short time for the eternal beings. I believe that...

1. Sometimes before the big bang, or the creation of the universe - Lucifer rebels in heaven, taking a third of the angels with him.
2. After the big bang, or the creation of the universe - The universe expands out from a point of origin. I believe that here Lucifer senses that a species will be created to replace his vacated position.
3. At some point he sees and understands the timeline of earth...

And the devil, taking him (Christ Jesus) up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. - Luke 4:5

If Lucifer can see that far into earth's future, I believe that he saw we human's coming before the creation of Earth. And he thinks he has us human folk all figured out...

1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. 2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
4 And Satan answered the Lord, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
6 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. - Job 2

If I had to arrange things in a timeline...

15+ billion years - Lucifer rebels taking a third of the angels
15 billion years - Big bang, or creation of the universe
4000 BC - God divides the light from the darkness, the earth is formed and inhabited six days after.
0 BC - 32 AD - The life and sacrifice of Christ Jesus
2060 AD - The return of Christ with his saints (I have got to go with Isaac Newton here)
3071 AD - The final battle after a millennial of peace.

Please note... Times are approximate.

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. - Revelation 12:12

"Because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." 2000 years may be long in earth terms, but it is not so long in eternal terms... A long time for us... A very short time for the eternal beings!

 

[A New World]

"Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision." Joel 3:14 (NASB)

"6 For thus says the Lord of hosts, little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land. 7 I will shake all the nations; and they will come with the wealth of all nations, and I will fill this house with glory,’ says the Lord of hosts." Hag. 2:6 (NASB)

If you go back to the beginning of Joel chapter three it says:
"For behold, in those days and at that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem" (Joel 3:1).

Then later he writes:
"Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision" (Joel 3:14).

Joel's audience knew the time of fulfillment was not imminent for them in their day. They were told, "in those days and at that time" it would be near.

This text does not compare with the multiple imminent time statements made in the New Testament.

The book of Haggai was written in the context of the building of the second temple following the Babylonian exile. The presence of God had departed from Israel at the destruction of the temple in 586 BC.

You provided the following:
"For thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Once more (it is a little while) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land" (Hag. 2:6).

However, Haggai described the glory of God returning to Israel at the completion of the new temple:

'and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory,' says the LORD of hosts. 'The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine,' says the LORD of hosts. 'The glory of this latter temple shall be greater than the former,' says the LORD of hosts. 'And in this place I will give peace,' says the LORD of hosts" (Hag. 2:7-9).

The context is the imminent return of God's former glory to this rebuilt temple in their day.

Again, this text does not compare with the straightforward expressions of imminence made by every NT writer.

 

[A New World]

Here's an abbreviated list of imminent time statements in the New Testament

Matthew 10:23 "When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Matthew 23:36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

Matthew 24:34 "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place."

Romans 13:11-12 "And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is near. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light."

1 Corinthians 7:29 "But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none"

Hebrews 1:1-2 "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds"

James 5:7-9 "Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!"

1 Peter 4:7 "But the end of all things is near; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers."

1 Peter 4:17 "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?"

1 John 2:18 "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."

Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John"

Revelation 1:3 "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near."

Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which are about to take place after this."

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

Revelation 22:6-7 "Then he said to me, "These words are faithful and true." And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place. Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

Revelation 22:10 "And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

Revelation 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work."

 

[Rick Otto]

It is amusing that the branch of Christianity most associated with literalism has redefined so many straight forward words. "Soon" means "later", "quickly" means "slowly", "near" means "distant" and so on. Ironic, really.

I'm amused by your association of a branch with literalism.

 

[A New World]

Can you provide those Old Testament passages in which the original audiences were promised something near and soon by the prophets yet the fulfillment did not actually occur for a very long time?

It should be easy since the OT was written over a period of about a thousand years while the NT was written in about twenty.

This challenge still stands.