Why do the laws of the OT not apply today?

[Albion]

Somehow I'm the one creating my own interpretation when you're the one adding in years to a clear and simple 7 day creation account? I can't have this type of conversation with someone that believes these sort of things, its like trying to reason about anything with a baby. .

Why don't we just live with that fact, then, and move onto something else? There are different ways of interpreting Scripture at work here, and yours is really your own, whereas his and mine, although different from each other, are fairly common among Christians.

But that aside, it is a difference of interpretation that will not be solved by debate, so let's accept that.

 

[jerry kelso]

Somehow I'm the one creating my own interpretation when you're the one adding in years to a clear and simple 7 day creation account? I can't have this type of conversation with someone that believes these sort of things, its like trying to reason about anything with a baby. Only the Father can draw you and open your eyes. I have nothing further to say to you, as it is a waste of time to go deeper in conversation with you if you don't even understand very simple matters such as these.

cgaviria,
1. I didn't add anything to a 7 day creation. Verse 1 was; In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Isaiah 45:18 says he created it not in vain and in Hebrews he said the worlds were framed by the word of God so things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. God made the world out of nothing.

2. In verse 2 the earth is without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep, And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. This harmonizes with Isaiah 45:18 that God did not create earth without form and void. He formed the earth and hath established it and he formed it to be inhabited. Without form and void is judgement because of Satan's sin. The only way that you could try to get around this is to say without form and void is to be inhabited phrase.

3. Job 38 says that when the foundations of the earth were laid and the cornerstone was fastened the morning stars (planets) and all the sons of God shouted for joy ( angels). How could the planets be there at the foundations if they were not created until the fourth day?
Satan was on earth before man otherwise he could have not tempted man in the garden of eden in Adam and Eve's day. He ruled the earth before and defiled the sanctuaries. Ezekiel 28:1-19. From the day Lucifer was created he was sinless until sin was found in him, verse 15. Isaiah 14:12-14 shows that Lucifer was fallen from heaven and cut down to the ground which didst weaken the nations. He was cast down because he tried to ascend to heaven and usurp God in the rebellion and take over God's position and be like the Most high. This shows he had a kingdom on earth and tasted rulership authority and became selfish and full of pride. He wants earth back and this is part of the great confrontation and why he is at war against God.

4. No matter what the time frame is in the pre-adamite world when Satan ruled the earth it ended up in judgement. When the re-creation began it could have been in 7 days of 24 hour days. There is also an argument that it wasn't 7 days of 24 hour days that John Ankerberg purports. I haven't studied it enough to say one way or the other. But whether the creation of Genesis is a re-creation or an original creation doesn't interfere with being a 7 24 hour period.

5. Back to the creation of Genesis being original creation or re-creation note, the earth alone was created on the third day and were under water and God said let the dry land appear and it was so. If the worlds were framed by the word of God with things not seen or coming from something then something is definitely because God didn't make earth out of nothing but used something that already was and that could be seen. If this were true then it would be a contradiction of how God really created the original creation.

6. As far as the baby comment you ought to reconsider because I have kids older than you so respect your elders. I forgive you since you wouldn't have known.

7. You still have not answered my question and you will not and the thing wasted is that you won't believe the truth and this is why you have nothing else to say.

8. I am glad you like to study the bible but take some good advice and learn more about proper exegesis instead of learning one context that sounds like sense to you and is not in the biblical context.

9. If you believe God predestines everything then it means that God predestines christians to sin. If you believe that you have to wait until you have the Holy Spirit then you are not saved at all. Food for thought! Jerry kelso

 

[cgaviria]

cgaviria,
1. I didn't add anything to a 7 day creation. Verse 1 was; In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Isaiah 45:18 says he created it not in vain and in Hebrews he said the worlds were framed by the word of God so things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. God made the world out of nothing.

2. In verse 2 the earth is without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep, And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. This harmonizes with Isaiah 45:18 that God did not create earth without form and void. He formed the earth and hath established it and he formed it to be inhabited. Without form and void is judgement because of Satan's sin. The only way that you could try to get around this is to say without form and void is to be inhabited phrase.

3. Job 38 says that when the foundations of the earth were laid and the cornerstone was fastened the morning stars (planets) and all the sons of God shouted for joy ( angels). How could the planets be there at the foundations if they were not created until the fourth day?
Satan was on earth before man otherwise he could have not tempted man in the garden of eden in Adam and Eve's day. He ruled the earth before and defiled the sanctuaries. Ezekiel 28:1-19. From the day Lucifer was created he was sinless until sin was found in him, verse 15. Isaiah 14:12-14 shows that Lucifer was fallen from heaven and cut down to the ground which didst weaken the nations. He was cast down because he tried to ascend to heaven and usurp God in the rebellion and take over God's position and be like the Most high. This shows he had a kingdom on earth and tasted rulership authority and became selfish and full of pride. He wants earth back and this is part of the great confrontation and why he is at war against God.

4. No matter what the time frame is in the pre-adamite world when Satan ruled the earth it ended up in judgement. When the re-creation began it could have been in 7 days of 24 hour days. There is also an argument that it wasn't 7 days of 24 hour days that John Ankerberg purports. I haven't studied it enough to say one way or the other. But whether the creation of Genesis is a re-creation or an original creation doesn't interfere with being a 7 24 hour period.

5. Back to the creation of Genesis being original creation or re-creation note, the earth alone was created on the third day and were under water and God said let the dry land appear and it was so. If the worlds were framed by the word of God with things not seen or coming from something then something is definitely because God didn't make earth out of nothing but used something that already was and that could be seen. If this were true then it would be a contradiction of how God really created the original creation.

6. As far as the baby comment you ought to reconsider because I have kids older than you so respect your elders. I forgive you since you wouldn't have known.

7. You still have not answered my question and you will not and the thing wasted is that you won't believe the truth and this is why you have nothing else to say.

8. I am glad you like to study the bible but take some good advice and learn more about proper exegesis instead of learning one context that sounds like sense to you and is not in the biblical context.

9. If you believe God predestines everything then it means that God predestines christians to sin. If you believe that you have to wait until you have the Holy Spirit then you are not saved at all. Food for thought! Jerry kelso

You have not studied the scriptures well enough to know what "without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep" means. Here is the rendering of that same passage according to the Greek Septuagint translated into English,

But the earth was unseen and unready, and darkness was upon the abyss, and spirit of God bore upon the water. (Genesis 1:2 [ABP])

The earth was brought forth into existence by the Father. Then Jesus spoke things into existence in it and in the heavens. The earth was unseen and unready. Why was it unseen? Because light had not yet been created, as the utterance of "let there be light" had not yet been spoken. And even so, when light was created, the sources of light had not even been created yet till the 4th day, so the earth was still in darkness even on the 1st day. So how how was each day measured without the sun? By the earth's rotation that God had caused when he brought the earth forth into existence. Why was it unready, or also, "unmade"? Because the utterances of Jesus had not yet spoken to make it ready and completely made for life on earth and for its purpose. Therefore, how could you possibly speculate that there was even life or "kingdoms" at this point in time if light, even dry land, had not yet come forth into existence? Man did not come into existence until the 6th day. Even angels themselves came into existence on account of the utterances of Jesus, as all life is said to come through Jesus, which was on the 4th day when the luminaries came into existence as the angels are associated with stars. Satan fell into wickedness some time after the 7th day, speaking through the serpent, and deceiving the woman. And from thereon, he fell, and then thousands of years later Isaiah prophesied concerning him. The 7 day account of Genesis is literally 7 days of creation, and God in wisdom created all things in 7 days, which are a type of time foreshadowing the length of time this heaven and this earth will exist, which is at around 7,000 years, and the last thousand years are designated as a lengthy time of rest of evil, as even Satan will be bound at this time.

 

[YHWH's Lion]

These are absolutely valid questions, and it is important to ask concerning each commandment in the Law of Moses. None of the festivities or holidays are to be literally observed anymore, including the Sabbath, as Paul even instructed

Are we going to be keeping the Sabbath on the New Earth like Is 66:23 writes:
"And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord."

How about are we going to be keeping the Feast of Tabernacles when the LORD returns as described in Zach 14:16?
"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

God gave his people his Holy Days and his Sabbath as appointed times to come together and spend time with him.
These appointed times are days of Joy and Happiness, times God set aside for his people to come together and spend time with him. Most Christians have been taught the same thing you seem to be fooled with, that God's Holy Days and God's Sabbath are no longer needed. And after the Christians have accepted this teaching, then Christians go and worship on Pagan Holidays instead.

Now, concerning the topic of not eating shellfish, we also have an instruction in one of the epistles that we are to eat all foods with thanksgiving, so this mere saying gives a new allowance in terms of foods, and here is the saying allowing it, However, if you wish to understand the spiritual interpretation concerning shellfish, here is the commandment in the Law concerning it,
But why is it an abomination? Because these sorts of fish are in the depths of the water, whereas with the fish with fins and scales, are above the depths closer to the surface. So what is the spiritual meaning? That you will not be or cling to ungodly men, who are represented as fish without fins and scales that are cursed to dwell in the depths of the waters, which corresponds with the curse of the ungodly concerning death, as all who are ungodly are cursed with the final judgment of endless death through torment and consummation of fire, which is represented as the true depth of the ocean where the shellfish are, since death is lower than life. Eating shellfish is of no importance to a believer in the new covenant, but being "friends" with the ungodly certainly is.

Where did you come up with your "spiritual interpretation"?
It definitely is something you made up because this "spiritual interpretation" is not from the bible.
God gave his people the clean and unclean laws because he Loves them and wants them to live healthy lives.
If you want to learn something about the difference between clean and unclean animals i strongly suggest you watch this:

You can eat what you want cgaviria, but the difference is that people that truly seek wisdom from God's Word, from God's Laws, will see the wisdom passed on to us by Him and incorporate it into our lives.
Whether its God's instructions on how to grow closer to him spiritually or whether its God's instructions on how to live a healthy life.

 

[jerry kelso]

You have not studied the scriptures well enough to know what "without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep" means. Here is the rendering of that same passage according to the Greek Septuagint translated into English,


The earth was brought forth into existence by the Father. Then Jesus spoke things into existence in it and in the heavens. The earth was unseen and unready. Why was it unseen? Because light had not yet been created, as the utterance of "let there be light" had not yet been spoken. And even so, when light was created, the sources of light had not even been created yet till the 4th day, so the earth was still in darkness even on the 1st day. So how how was each day measured without the sun? By the earth's rotation that God had caused when he brought the earth forth into existence. Why was it unready, or also, "unmade"? Because the utterances of Jesus had not yet spoken to make it ready and completely made for life on earth and for its purpose. Therefore, how could you possibly speculate that there was even life or "kingdoms" at this point in time if light, even dry land, had not yet come forth into existence? Man did not come into existence until the 6th day. Even angels themselves came into existence on account of the utterances of Jesus, as all life is said to come through Jesus, which was on the 4th day when the luminaries came into existence as the angels are associated with stars. Satan fell into wickedness some time after the 7th day, speaking through the serpent, and deceiving the woman. And from thereon, he fell, and then thousands of years later Isaiah prophesied concerning him. The 7 day account of Genesis is literally 7 days of creation, and God in wisdom created all things in 7 days, which are a type of time foreshadowing the length of time this heaven and this earth will exist, which is at around 7,000 years, and the last thousand years are designated as a lengthy time of rest of evil, as even Satan will be bound at this time.

cgaviria,

I understand both the young earth and the old earth. This argument has been around much longer than you and I. To say I haven't studied enough on this subject is pretty bold for you to say. Expositors on both sides give great arguments and this is not necessarily a make or break thing concerning salvation or predestination.

2. The septuagint says vacant and empty and it was. Without form and void are also used in conjunction with confusion and chaos and judgement and this would be why it was vacant and empty.

3. You use unseen and unready as in the beginning stages of creation process as the first time and being the original. That is your opinion to how you view the scripture and that is fine but that doesn't hinder the old creation view from this interpretation except it would be viewed as reconstruction process.

4. The word created is Bara in Hebrew meaning to create, to make new, or bring into existence without the use of pre-existing material. Hebrews 11:3 agrees with this. This word is used 7 times in Genesis 1:1-2:4 and means created new. The word made is the Hebrew asah and means to make something out of already existing material.

5. The sea creatures are created brought into existence, man is created; Genesis 1:21; 1:28. Bara is reserved for the three great sphere of existence: the world of matter, the world of natural life as in all living creatures, and the world of spiritual life represented by man.

6. Shamayim, meaning lofty, sky, the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve. Found 657 times it should have translated heavens, which includes the sun, moon, stars and all inhabitants of Heaven and all things therein. Then he created the Earth and its inhabitants and all thing therein.

7. Jeremiah 4:23 uses the phrase without form and void. Jeremiah is talking about Israel and their destruction for disobedience that would surely come if they didn't repent. Verses 23-26 is judgement and chaos. This is not Noahs flood for it was not without form and void in the same manner for the waters abated etc. and the words without form and void are not in Noah's flood.

8. The wording in verses 23-26 is totally the creation flood of Genesis 1:1-2. It was not the prophecy in that manner in the future of Jerusalem being destroyed and punished. The reason for this is that in verse 27 the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. This means that verses 23-26 which shifts the tense from the 1st 23 verses to creation to use it as an example of true complete desolation and yet he would not make a full end because he had made a promise to Israel which was an eternal covenant of Abraham and David concerning the land and the kingdom on earth as head of the nations. Isaiah 2:2-4.

9. 2 Peter 3:5; For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water; Verse 6; Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: Verse 7; But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. The contrast is between the world that was and the world that is now. The world in Noah's day is the same as ours now because in the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth perfectly and then because of Satan and his sin the earth was plunged into chaos.

10. Erets is Hebrew for dry ground and God called the dry land earth. Genesis 1:9-10. So Genesis 1:1 could be read as "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the dry land. This is why the flood was in Hebrews 1:2 in chaos. GOD LET THE DRY LAND APPEAR, HE DIDN'T CREATE IT NEW BECAUSE IT NEVER WAS THERE.
Genesis 1:14-16 has nothing to do with angels in this context and there is no implication. You are spiritualizing the passage which are the physical lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth and the sun, moon and stars etc. This is no proof that Satan was created on this day of creation and then sinned after the 7th day. This is conjecture on your part. Satan as Lucifer and the angels were before this creation because he ruled the earth Ezekiel 28, defiled the sanctuaries which is translated Goy for gentiles and was the covering cherub who ascended up to heaven and was kicked out of heaven showing the garden of eden was originally on earth and he defiled it when he sinned. Also, hell was made for the devil and his angels and it is located under the earth. This had to be before the recreation of earth because otherwise it would have been created for all the children as well.

10. I have read about the 7000 year theory and the second and third day etc., even though it has been a while. I understand the concept and if you go by our time it wouldn't fit right now. The earth was supposedly 6000 years old back in the early 1900's so it doesn't fit that calendar. Some say the jewish calendar is what they go by and I would have to study it out.
The point is that there are good views on both sides and this has nothing to do with God not predestinating creation.

11. You still have not answered my question and I guess you won't because you can't. If you believe God predestines every jot and tittle of everything and everyone then do you believe that he predestined you to sin in your daily life as a christian. See, you know you can sin because first you said that you were sinless when you become born again and then you came back and said it wouldn't be until you receive the Holy Spirit and the Bible says you are not a christian without having the Spirit. You have contradicted yourself in both accounts. One by saying that a christian is sinless with no possibility of falling from grace even though Galatians proves otherwise for they were saved and were trying to be justified by grace and Paul corrected them. So they were saved but they were not sinless. Then to say you need the Holy Spirit is an oxymoron and contradiction because we drink of one Spirit. Even the baptism of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues doesn't keep christians from the possibility of sinning unless you abide in Christ, but there is no guarantee that christians will always be sinless. We are not to let sin have dominion over us and we should not have the struggle of sin that is dominates us over fulfilling our purpose and destiny for God. This should be all the time but God gives grace for those who miss the mark. We are to be over comers and holy and sanctified but to say there is no possibility at all for a christian to sin is not scriptural and 1 John 2 shows this among many other scriptures. You haven't rebutted scripture on this subject across the board. Jerry kelso

 

[cgaviria]

Are we going to be keeping the Sabbath on the New Earth like Is 66:23 writes:
"And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord."

How about are we going to be keeping the Feast of Tabernacles when the LORD returns as described in Zach 14:16?
"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

God gave his people his Holy Days and his Sabbath as appointed times to come together and spend time with him.
These appointed times are days of Joy and Happiness, times God set aside for his people to come together and spend time with him. Most Christians have been taught the same thing you seem to be fooled with, that God's Holy Days and God's Sabbath are no longer needed. And after the Christians have accepted this teaching, then Christians go and worship on Pagan Holidays instead.



Where did you come up with your "spiritual interpretation"?
It definitely is something you made up because this "spiritual interpretation" is not from the bible.
God gave his people the clean and unclean laws because he Loves them and wants them to live healthy lives.
If you want to learn something about the difference between clean and unclean animals i strongly suggest you watch this:

You can eat what you want cgaviria, but the difference is that people that truly seek wisdom from God's Word, from God's Laws, will see the wisdom passed on to us by Him and incorporate it into our lives.
Whether its God's instructions on how to grow closer to him spiritually or whether its God's instructions on how to live a healthy life.

The true Sabbath is a longer rest than just one day, it is a rest of a thousand years in reference to the millennial kingdom to come, which corresponds to the last thousand years of this heaven and earth, which lasts around seven thousand years in total, which corresponds with the seven days of creation. This is why keeping the actual day of the week is of no importance, because it is merely a foreshadow of a greater rest to come, where even Satan is bound for this time, and even Paul agrees with this,

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. (Colossians 2:16 [NIV])

Could you keep the sabbath day of the week? Sure, but you are not to judge others who don't, and tell them that they are sinning if they don't keep it, because they are not.

Concerning the feast of tabernacles, I have no interpretation for you, except that again, this is another festivity that will come into fulfillment at the time after Jesus Christ comes and sets up his earthly kingdom.

Now, concerning unclean foods. This interpretation is not of my own, as there are early writings you can find giving these spiritual interpretations on certain Torah laws. This particular interpretation can be found in the epistle of Barnabas, which although a non-canon epistle, has some wisdom concerning these matters. Again, there is no food that is truly unclean, they are just merely foreshadows of things that have spiritual meanings, such as the one I just described to you, as Paul also agrees with this,

I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. (Romans 14:14 [NIV])

And also we have this saying,

They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. (1 Timothy 4:3 [NIV])

So although you yourself can abstain from whatever foods the Law of Moses forbade, you ought not to judge someone that does eat of these foods having greater belief than you, as eating these foods are not sinful, so long as they are eaten with thanksgiving. Could it be said that perhaps eating these foods are not as "healthy" to the body as others? Perhaps it can, yet are there not also foods that are allowable by the Law of Moses that can also be less "healthy" to the body as well? Look at white bread, or white rice, or sugary juices and drinks, even fried foods using certain oils with potatoes. So therefore, "how healthy" a food is, does not make it sinful or not, but rather, it is how much self control you exhibit in eating any food is where sin truly is in reference to all foods, as even we have these scriptures,

Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. (Philippians 3:19 [ESV])

And put a knife to your throat if you are given to appetite. (Proverbs 23:2 [ESV])

So in eating any food, even from those foods considered "clean" by the Law of Moses, are you then considered also a glutton if given over to excess and appetite. You can easily tell who a glutton is by their belly. The body is designed to take nourishment and dispose of whatever foods it takes in. Now, whenever anyone is given to excess cravings of tasty sugary foods, and excess quantities of foods, their bodies then start becoming overweight. These are outer signs of gluttony, which is sinful, as the body should not gain fat from any foods it consumes, especially with the believers that are said to be fasting frequently and eating with self control and well portioned foods.

Now lastly, we do have certain prohibitions that still apply in terms to all foods, and that we are not to consume the blood of any animal, or eat of any food sacrificed to idols, nor of any food that was strangled, as is said in Acts,

You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. (Acts 15:29 [NIV])

Obviously, if you do not know if a food was sacrificed to an idol, or do not know if it was strangled, and if you eat, you have not sinned, as it is a matter of conscience, as Paul said,

If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. But if someone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. (1 Corinthians 10:27 [NIV])

However, if you are truly concerned about eating of meats from animals that have been properly slaughtered, I would advise you to eat of meats that are labeled as Kosher, since they follow the Torah laws, and even properly drain the meats of all blood.

 

[cgaviria]

cgaviria,

I understand both the young earth and the old earth. This argument has been around much longer than you and I. To say I haven't studied enough on this subject is pretty bold for you to say. Expositors on both sides give great arguments and this is not necessarily a make or break thing concerning salvation or predestination.

2. The septuagint says vacant and empty and it was. Without form and void are also used in conjunction with confusion and chaos and judgement and this would be why it was vacant and empty.

3. You use unseen and unready as in the beginning stages of creation process as the first time and being the original. That is your opinion to how you view the scripture and that is fine but that doesn't hinder the old creation view from this interpretation except it would be viewed as reconstruction process.

4. The word created is Bara in Hebrew meaning to create, to make new, or bring into existence without the use of pre-existing material. Hebrews 11:3 agrees with this. This word is used 7 times in Genesis 1:1-2:4 and means created new. The word made is the Hebrew asah and means to make something out of already existing material.

5. The sea creatures are created brought into existence, man is created; Genesis 1:21; 1:28. Bara is reserved for the three great sphere of existence: the world of matter, the world of natural life as in all living creatures, and the world of spiritual life represented by man.

6. Shamayim, meaning lofty, sky, the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve. Found 657 times it should have translated heavens, which includes the sun, moon, stars and all inhabitants of Heaven and all things therein. Then he created the Earth and its inhabitants and all thing therein.

7. Jeremiah 4:23 uses the phrase without form and void. Jeremiah is talking about Israel and their destruction for disobedience that would surely come if they didn't repent. Verses 23-26 is judgement and chaos. This is not Noahs flood for it was not without form and void in the same manner for the waters abated etc. and the words without form and void are not in Noah's flood.

8. The wording in verses 23-26 is totally the creation flood of Genesis 1:1-2. It was not the prophecy in that manner in the future of Jerusalem being destroyed and punished. The reason for this is that in verse 27 the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. This means that verses 23-26 which shifts the tense from the 1st 23 verses to creation to use it as an example of true complete desolation and yet he would not make a full end because he had made a promise to Israel which was an eternal covenant of Abraham and David concerning the land and the kingdom on earth as head of the nations. Isaiah 2:2-4.

9. 2 Peter 3:5; For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water; Verse 6; Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: Verse 7; But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. The contrast is between the world that was and the world that is now. The world in Noah's day is the same as ours now because in the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth perfectly and then because of Satan and his sin the earth was plunged into chaos.

10. Erets is Hebrew for dry ground and God called the dry land earth. Genesis 1:9-10. So Genesis 1:1 could be read as "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the dry land. This is why the flood was in Hebrews 1:2 in chaos. GOD LET THE DRY LAND APPEAR, HE DIDN'T CREATE IT NEW BECAUSE IT NEVER WAS THERE.
Genesis 1:14-16 has nothing to do with angels in this context and there is no implication. You are spiritualizing the passage which are the physical lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth and the sun, moon and stars etc. This is no proof that Satan was created on this day of creation and then sinned after the 7th day. This is conjecture on your part. Satan as Lucifer and the angels were before this creation because he ruled the earth Ezekiel 28, defiled the sanctuaries which is translated Goy for gentiles and was the covering cherub who ascended up to heaven and was kicked out of heaven showing the garden of eden was originally on earth and he defiled it when he sinned. Also, hell was made for the devil and his angels and it is located under the earth. This had to be before the recreation of earth because otherwise it would have been created for all the children as well.

10. I have read about the 7000 year theory and the second and third day etc., even though it has been a while. I understand the concept and if you go by our time it wouldn't fit right now. The earth was supposedly 6000 years old back in the early 1900's so it doesn't fit that calendar. Some say the jewish calendar is what they go by and I would have to study it out.
The point is that there are good views on both sides and this has nothing to do with God not predestinating creation.

11. You still have not answered my question and I guess you won't because you can't. If you believe God predestines every jot and tittle of everything and everyone then do you believe that he predestined you to sin in your daily life as a christian. See, you know you can sin because first you said that you were sinless when you become born again and then you came back and said it wouldn't be until you receive the Holy Spirit and the Bible says you are not a christian without having the Spirit. You have contradicted yourself in both accounts. One by saying that a christian is sinless with no possibility of falling from grace even though Galatians proves otherwise for they were saved and were trying to be justified by grace and Paul corrected them. So they were saved but they were not sinless. Then to say you need the Holy Spirit is an oxymoron and contradiction because we drink of one Spirit. Even the baptism of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues doesn't keep christians from the possibility of sinning unless you abide in Christ, but there is no guarantee that christians will always be sinless. We are not to let sin have dominion over us and we should not have the struggle of sin that is dominates us over fulfilling our purpose and destiny for God. This should be all the time but God gives grace for those who miss the mark. We are to be over comers and holy and sanctified but to say there is no possibility at all for a christian to sin is not scriptural and 1 John 2 shows this among many other scriptures. You haven't rebutted scripture on this subject across the board. Jerry kelso

There is much confusion in your words, and it grieves me actually, because you are missing out in truly understanding the fantastic work of God and in knowing the wisdom behind the way he created things. Yet even so, concerning the 7,000 years, are we not in the year 5,776 according to the Jewish calendar? Yet I do not know how precise this calendar is to the exact year since creation, but I do know we are approaching the fullness of the times very soon as even many end times prophecies have already come into fulfillment. We may not know the exact time of things, but we can know how close we are to the fulfillment of certain other prophecies, such as the coming of Jesus Christ, by just observing things around us,

He told them this parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. (Luke 21:29-32 [NIV])

And did I not answer your question already concerning predestination? Every sin every man commits is preordained by God. Not one thing happens without his preordainment. If you come to him, he preordained it. If you reject him and continue on in your sin, he preordained it. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? And why do you keep saying I have not answered your question when I have? What specific answer are you looking for?

 

[jerry kelso]

There is much confusion in your words, and it grieves me actually, because you are missing out in truly understanding the fantastic work of God and in knowing the wisdom behind the way he created things. Yet even so, concerning the 7,000 years, are we not in the year 5,776 according to the Jewish calendar? Yet I do not know how precise this calendar is to the exact year since creation, but I do know we are approaching the fullness of the times very soon as even many end times prophecies have already come into fulfillment. We may not know the exact time of things, but we can know how close we are to the fulfillment of certain other prophecies, such as the coming of Jesus Christ, by just observing things around us,


And did I not answer your question already concerning predestination? Every sin every man commits is preordained by God. Not one thing happens without his preordainment. If you come to him, he preordained it. If you reject him and continue on in your sin, he preordained it. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? And why do you keep saying I have not answered your question when I have? What specific answer are you looking for?

cgaviria,

1. To say it grieves you but there are in the minority with your belief and I and many other christians have found plenty of wonder and amazement in the creation of God without your belief. I am sure you are excited about your findings and what you say it has done for you but you should be a little more wise in your statement which are your opinion.

2. I understand if you reject him and continue on in your sin he preordained it but I don't agree with you. The problem is that you misunderstand that I understand your position.

3. You believe in a sinless perfection doctrine with no possibility of being able to sin as a christian and then you said once you received the Holy Spirit he will help you be sinless. If you are saved then you already have the Holy Spirit who is to lead and guide you and direct you. You can't defend your contradiction.

4. Furthermore, God doesn't preordain freewill choice of people to go to hell, they do it on their own and because of the fact that they choose freely to reject him he has a place for the disobedient in hell which was prepared for the devil and his angels. Sinners go to hell because of freewill choice to reject God not because God ordained them to be a sinner forever. Upon your theory you have made God an unjust God because he has preordained people unjustly and they have no chance of grace at all.

5. God has no darkness in him at all and this includes of being responsible for you choice to sin. This is not a scriptural context. You also think that because God can see the type of personality that they will not accept God. This is not true in every context but despite that it doesn't matter because God cannot be responsible for sin in a person's life and he has to give everyone a chance to accept him and his grace for he is willing that none should perish.

6. God cannot sin and to take responsibility for man's sin is to say that he made them sin. Even if you don't believe this and believe that man sins on his own but God takes responsibility is incorrect otherwise he wouldn't have no need of chastening us or correct in any way and sin is not really sin in a christian. If this is true then there is no need to be sinless because sin is not really sin. This is a falsehood and you ought to be ashamed to think so ridiculous and out of touch logic.

7. Can you prove to me that you never sin? Your theory about having the Holy Spirit you will be sinless is ridiculous. The christian can spite grace and incur the death penalty if they don't ask for forgiveness.
To say preordination of man's choice to continue in sin as a christian or vice versa is an unconditional eternal security doctrine and it means you do not understand the laws of degeneration and hardening of the heart can happen to a christian just like a sinner.

8. Sin has power and christians can have strongholds in their lives and the longer they go without getting victory they run the risk of even thinking they are not sinning with their stronghold and they can fall away completely from grace to the point of no return.

9. Paul said he mortify his members of his body otherwise he could be a reprobate. Left in the state of being reprobate will not go into the kingdom of God. Galatians plainly states to christians; Walk in the Spirit and you won't fulfill the things of the flesh. Those who commit the things of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. This was Paul speaking to christians. Unconditional Eternal Security is not scriptural especially in your context.

10. So you are wrong about predestination of God in your context. You read what I have stated and see if you can figure out what I am saying and try to address why you think I am wrong in what I have shown you to be true of your false theory. See if you can do that. Anybody can tell what they believe but understanding someone else's hermeneutics and the why etc. are a little different and it a part of proper rebuttal. Jerry kelso

 

[cgaviria]

cgaviria,

1. To say it grieves you but there are in the minority with your belief and I and many other christians have found plenty of wonder and amazement in the creation of God without your belief. I am sure you are excited about your findings and what you say it has done for you but you should be a little more wise in your statement which are your opinion.

2. I understand if you reject him and continue on in your sin he preordained it but I don't agree with you. The problem is that you misunderstand that I understand your position.

3. You believe in a sinless perfection doctrine with no possibility of being able to sin as a christian and then you said once you received the Holy Spirit he will help you be sinless. If you are saved then you already have the Holy Spirit who is to lead and guide you and direct you. You can't defend your contradiction.

4. Furthermore, God doesn't preordain freewill choice of people to go to hell, they do it on their own and because of the fact that they choose freely to reject him he has a place for the disobedient in hell which was prepared for the devil and his angels. Sinners go to hell because of freewill choice to reject God not because God ordained them to be a sinner forever. Upon your theory you have made God an unjust God because he has preordained people unjustly and they have no chance of grace at all.

5. God has no darkness in him at all and this includes of being responsible for you choice to sin. This is not a scriptural context. You also think that because God can see the type of personality that they will not accept God. This is not true in every context but despite that it doesn't matter because God cannot be responsible for sin in a person's life and he has to give everyone a chance to accept him and his grace for he is willing that none should perish.

6. God cannot sin and to take responsibility for man's sin is to say that he made them sin. Even if you don't believe this and believe that man sins on his own but God takes responsibility is incorrect otherwise he wouldn't have no need of chastening us or correct in any way and sin is not really sin in a christian. If this is true then there is no need to be sinless because sin is not really sin. This is a falsehood and you ought to be ashamed to think so ridiculous and out of touch logic.

7. Can you prove to me that you never sin? Your theory about having the Holy Spirit you will be sinless is ridiculous. The christian can spite grace and incur the death penalty if they don't ask for forgiveness.
To say preordination of man's choice to continue in sin as a christian or vice versa is an unconditional eternal security doctrine and it means you do not understand the laws of degeneration and hardening of the heart can happen to a christian just like a sinner.

8. Sin has power and christians can have strongholds in their lives and the longer they go without getting victory they run the risk of even thinking they are not sinning with their stronghold and they can fall away completely from grace to the point of no return.

9. Paul said he mortify his members of his body otherwise he could be a reprobate. Left in the state of being reprobate will not go into the kingdom of God. Galatians plainly states to christians; Walk in the Spirit and you won't fulfill the things of the flesh. Those who commit the things of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. This was Paul speaking to christians. Unconditional Eternal Security is not scriptural especially in your context.

10. So you are wrong about predestination of God in your context. You read what I have stated and see if you can figure out what I am saying and try to address why you think I am wrong in what I have shown you to be true of your false theory. See if you can do that. Anybody can tell what they believe but understanding someone else's hermeneutics and the why etc. are a little different and it a part of proper rebuttal. Jerry kelso

I have already told you, I myself have not yet received holy spirit, and neither do I claim to have yet received its sinless perfection. However, once anyone receives holy spirit, they are then imparted its sinless perfection, as it causes any man receiving it to be perfected inwardly, no longer able to sin, as it is impossible to sin once receiving it, which coincides with this scripture,

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 [KJV])

One does not receive holy spirit immediately after believing in Jesus Christ, in fact, most never receive it after believing. It is a gift imparted only to those who are actually chosen. Holy spirit is a living being of moving air, holy "pneuma", that as any "spirit" is able to, enters into the body through its breath, and takes possession of the body, yet this spirit is sent forth from heaven, and does a specific kind of godly work, not demonic work, as demon spirits do evil works in vessels they possess, which fulfills this prophecy,

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. (Ezekiel 36:26-27 [NIV])

The way this new holy spirit works is by removing the "old heart", meaning your old desires, and giving you new desires, that follow after God. It is by removing your wicked desires, which is the root of the sinful nature of man, that it then causes you to not be able to sin. This is not a popular teaching because most erroneously teach that you can still sin while professing the belief in Jesus Christ. Receiving holy spirit comes with outward signs that you have received it, such as speaking in different languages and prophesying.

Predestination is a true doctrine of scripture.

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, (Ephesians 1:11 [ESV])

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 [ESV])

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Proverbs 16:4 [KJV])

For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone. (Romans 11:32 [NLT])

Whoever denies this doctrine has no understanding of the Father. It is when you properly understand these things, that you can then truly begin to fear God, and then actually attain true wisdom.

 

[YHWH's Lion]

The true Sabbath is a longer rest than just one day, it is a rest of a thousand years in reference to the millennial kingdom to come, which corresponds to the last thousand years of this heaven and earth, which lasts around seven thousand years in total, which corresponds with the seven days of creation.

Yeah it will be the 1000 year Sabbath, and what does the Is 66 passage say about what will happen during the 1000 years? We will keep the Sabbath. And Zach 14, says the whole earth will keep the feast of tabernacles.

This is why keeping the actual day of the week is of no importance

God Blessed the Sabbath Day and hallowed it, Sabbath was made for Men (Mark 2:27). It was a gift from God, it was the only Commandment that God told us to Remember. Yet people reject God’s gift and instead stick to the Traditions of Men. The Sabbath day is a blessing given to Mankind by God, and the people that accept God’s gift get a blessing, (ask anyone that has accepted it) those that do not, miss out on a blessing from God.- Your Choice.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. (Colossians 2:16 [NIV])

In Colossians 2 we see the conflict between the “faith passed down to the Colossian church” (verse 7) and “philosophy and vain deceit after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world” (verse 8) and (verse 20-22)
Here Paul is telling the Colossians to not let anyone judge THEM by what THEY eat or drink, and what religious festival, a new moon or a Sabbath THEY keep. (these things are not: “philosophy and vain deceit after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world”) but rather “the faith passed down to the Colossian Church”

More importantly these are appointed times that God put in place for his children, times to come together and spend time with God. However like I said before, Christians would much rather follow pagan traditions of men.

Could you keep the sabbath day of the week? Sure, but you are not to judge others who don't, and tell them that they are sinning if they don't keep it, because they are not.

To this I will only say this: the Bible says Sin is the Transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4)
So whether you are sinning by ignoring and willingly breaking one of God’s 10 commandants, God will Judge.

Now, concerning unclean foods. This interpretation is not of my own, as there are early writings you can find giving these spiritual interpretations on certain Torah laws. This particular interpretation can be found in the epistle of Barnabas, which although a non-canon epistle, has some wisdom concerning these matters. Again, there is no food that is truly unclean, they are just merely foreshadows of things that have spiritual meanings, such as the one I just described to you, as Paul also agrees with this,

Like I said, your “spiritual interpretation" is not from the bible and you just proved it yourself by quoting Epistle of Barnabas.

And also we have this saying,
So although you yourself can abstain from whatever foods the Law of Moses forbade, you ought not to judge someone that does eat of these foods having greater belief than you,

I would have to dis-agree, the person with the greater faith, (in God, in God’s Word, and the knowledge he has left his children) is the person that is truly seeking wisdom from God's Word, from God's Laws and incorporating the wisdom God left for us into their lives.

Could it be said that perhaps eating these foods are not as "healthy" to the body as others? Perhaps it can, yet are there not also foods that are allowable by the Law of Moses that can also be less "healthy" to the body as well? Look at white bread, or white rice, or sugary juices and drinks, even fried foods using certain oils with potatoes. So therefore, "how healthy" a food is, does not make it sinful or not, but rather, it is how much self control you exhibit in eating any food is where sin truly is in reference to all foods, as even we have these scriptures,
So in eating any food, even from those foods considered "clean" by the Law of Moses, are you then considered also a glutton if given over to excess and appetite. You can easily tell who a glutton is by their belly. The body is designed to take nourishment and dispose of whatever foods it takes in. Now, whenever anyone is given to excess cravings of tasty sugary foods, and excess quantities of foods, their bodies then start becoming overweight. These are outer signs of gluttony, which is sinful, as the body should not gain fat from any foods it consumes, especially with the believers that are said to be fasting frequently and eating with self control and well portioned foods.
Now lastly, we do have certain prohibitions that still apply in terms to all foods, and that we are not to consume the blood of any animal, or eat of any food sacrificed to idols, nor of any food that was strangled, as is said in Acts,
Obviously, if you do not know if a food was sacrificed to an idol, or do not know if it was strangled, and if you eat, you have not sinned, as it is a matter of conscience, as Paul said,
However, if you are truly concerned about eating of meats from animals that have been properly slaughtered, I would advise you to eat of meats that are labeled as Kosher, since they follow the Torah laws, and even properly drain the meats of all blood.

So do you eat Kosher meat?
For me, I try to be vegetarian as best as I can and eat meat with out any blood if I do eat meat. You said it yourself
“we do have certain prohibitions that still apply in terms to all foods, and that we are not to consume the blood of any animal, or eat of any food sacrificed to idols, nor of any food that was strangled, as is said in Acts”

If you believe this, do you practice what you preach? Or do you eat what ever you want?
Our body is the temple of God and we need to try to take care of it, that means not filling it full of garbage. If you watched the video I linked, you would see that is exactly what you are eating when you eat unclean animals.

Listen, it comes down to this, God left wisdom in his word, whether it is about how to grow closer to him spiritually or whether its God's instructions on how to live a healthy life. There are Christians that try to keep the commandments of God:
1 John 5:2,3
“By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments, for this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments and his commandments are not grievous.”

"We are to reverence God and keep his commandments, this is the whole duty of men."
Ecclesiastes 12:13

“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”
Rev 14:12

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Rev 12:17

and there are Christians that do not.

Pick which one you want to be.

 

[cgaviria]

Yeah it will be the 1000 year Sabbath, and what does the Is 66 passage say about what will happen during the 1000 years? We will keep the Sabbath. And Zach 14, says the whole earth will keep the feast of tabernacles.


God Blessed the Sabbath Day and hallowed it, Sabbath was made for Men (Mark 2:27). It was a gift from God, it was the only Commandment that God told us to Remember. Yet people reject God’s gift and instead stick to the Traditions of Men. The Sabbath day is a blessing given to Mankind by God, and the people that accept God’s gift get a blessing, (ask anyone that has accepted it) those that do not, miss out on a blessing from God.- Your Choice.



In Colossians 2 we see the conflict between the “faith passed down to the Colossian church” (verse 7) and “philosophy and vain deceit after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world” (verse 8) and (verse 20-22)
Here Paul is telling the Colossians to not let anyone judge THEM by what THEY eat or drink, and what religious festival, a new moon or a Sabbath THEY keep. (these things are not: “philosophy and vain deceit after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world”) but rather “the faith passed down to the Colossian Church”

More importantly these are appointed times that God put in place for his children, times to come together and spend time with God. However like I said before, Christians would much rather follow pagan traditions of men.


To this I will only say this: the Bible says Sin is the Transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4)
So whether you are sinning by ignoring and willingly breaking one of God’s 10 commandants, God will Judge.


Like I said, your “spiritual interpretation" is not from the bible and you just proved it yourself by quoting Epistle of Barnabas.


I would have to dis-agree, the person with the greater faith, (in God, in God’s Word, and the knowledge he has left his children) is the person that is truly seeking wisdom from God's Word, from God's Laws and incorporating the wisdom God left for us into their lives.



So do you eat Kosher meat?
For me, I try to be vegetarian as best as I can and eat meat with out any blood if I do eat meat. You said it yourself
“we do have certain prohibitions that still apply in terms to all foods, and that we are not to consume the blood of any animal, or eat of any food sacrificed to idols, nor of any food that was strangled, as is said in Acts”

If you believe this, do you practice what you preach? Or do you eat what ever you want?
Our body is the temple of God and we need to try to take care of it, that means not filling it full of garbage. If you watched the video I linked, you would see that is exactly what you are eating when you eat unclean animals.

Listen, it comes down to this, God left wisdom in his word, whether it is about how to grow closer to him spiritually or whether its God's instructions on how to live a healthy life. There are Christians that try to keep the commandments of God:
1 John 5:2,3
“By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments, for this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments and his commandments are not grievous.”

"We are to reverence God and keep his commandments, this is the whole duty of men."
Ecclesiastes 12:13

“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”
Rev 14:12

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Rev 12:17

and there are Christians that do not.

Pick which one you want to be.

I perceive you are a Judaizer. You think by following these commandments literally that you will somehow be found without fault before God. These commandments are spiritual, not literal, and while you try to follow these commandments literally, you will find yourself ensnared by the penalty of the Law of Moses, which is death, because anyone living by it must follow every little dot of the Law of Moses. Let me ask you something, do you still sin? If your answer is yes, then you are a lawless person, breaker of the Law of Moses, deserving of death this very instant.

 

[YHWH's Lion]

I perceive you are a Judaizer. You think by following these commandments literally that you will somehow be found without fault before God. These commandments are spiritual, not literal, and while you try to follow these commandments literally, you will find yourself ensnared by the penalty of the Law of Moses, which is death, because anyone living by it must follow every little dot of the Law of Moses. Let me ask you something, do you still sin? If your answer is yes, then you are a lawless person, breaker of the Law of Moses, deserving of death this very instant.

LOL, thats its? you completely ignore what i wrote and this is your answer?
We are not supposed to follow God's commandments literally?
I guess i will just go and kill, steal, kidnap, commit incest, bestiality ect ect.
You truly have much to learn, and you should start by asking God to humble you.

 

[cgaviria]

LOL, thats its? you completely ignore what i wrote and this is your answer?
We are not supposed to follow God's commandments literally?
I guess i will just go and kill, steal, kidnap, commit incest, bestiality ect ect.
You truly have much to learn, and you should start by asking God to humble you.

I have much to learn, yet you are the one trying to burden people to obey certain commandments of the Law of Moses that were meant to be followed spiritually? Do you still think that physical circumcision ought to be followed? Do you still think that animal sacrifices ought to be performed for atonement of sin? These are all commands of the Law of Moses. Should these also be fulfilled literally?

 

[jerry kelso]

I have already told you, I myself have not yet received holy spirit, and neither do I claim to have yet received its sinless perfection. However, once anyone receives holy spirit, they are then imparted its sinless perfection, as it causes any man receiving it to be perfected inwardly, no longer able to sin, as it is impossible to sin once receiving it, which coincides with this scripture,


One does not receive holy spirit immediately after believing in Jesus Christ, in fact, most never receive it after believing. It is a gift imparted only to those who are actually chosen. Holy spirit is a living being of moving air, holy "pneuma", that as any "spirit" is able to, enters into the body through its breath, and takes possession of the body, yet this spirit is sent forth from heaven, and does a specific kind of godly work, not demonic work, as demon spirits do evil works in vessels they possess, which fulfills this prophecy,


The way this new holy spirit works is by removing the "old heart", meaning your old desires, and giving you new desires, that follow after God. It is by removing your wicked desires, which is the root of the sinful nature of man, that it then causes you to not be able to sin. This is not a popular teaching because most erroneously teach that you can still sin while professing the belief in Jesus Christ. Receiving holy spirit comes with outward signs that you have received it, such as speaking in different languages and prophesying.

Predestination is a true doctrine of scripture.





Whoever denies this doctrine has no understanding of the Father. It is when you properly understand these things, that you can then truly begin to fear God, and then actually attain true wisdom.

cgaviria,

1. You can believe whatever you believe but you haven't rebutted what I said according to the scripture because you can't. You believe your context is right to scripture and it is not. When God rights his law into their hearts they will be ready to enter the perfect state. This doctrine you have made up is an extrapolation from this scripture which you cannot reconcile with the scriptures that prove a christian can sin whether he has the Holy spirit or not. You don't believe in freewill choice and that is why you believe this false claim of being sinless. We are not in the perfect state and Israel is not until the end of the tribulation going into the kingdom and they will be in the perfect state.

2. People were filled with the Spirit in the old testament but they were not baptized which is true. If new testament believers are sinless that have the Holy Spirit then God is a respector of persons to the old testament saints and they could lose salvation and new testament saints can't.
Let me ask you to give me examples of well known people that you believe have received the Holy Spirit and are sinless. Why haven't you received the Holy Spirit yet so you can be sinless? Is because it is a gift you are waiting for God to give it to you? You are living in a fantasy world with rose colored glasses. So answer the questions if you can because you have not shown that you know how to properly rebut another's view because all you know is your opinion. Try again. Jerry Kelso

 

[cgaviria]

cgaviria,

1. You can believe whatever you believe but you haven't rebutted what I said according to the scripture because you can't. You believe your context is right to scripture and it is not. When God rights his law into their hearts they will be ready to enter the perfect state. This doctrine you have made up is an extrapolation from this scripture which you cannot reconcile with the scriptures that prove a christian can sin whether he has the Holy spirit or not. You don't believe in freewill choice and that is why you believe this false claim of being sinless. We are not in the perfect state and Israel is not until the end of the tribulation going into the kingdom and they will be in the perfect state.

2. People were filled with the Spirit in the old testament but they were not baptized which is true. If new testament believers are sinless that have the Holy Spirit then God is a respector of persons to the old testament saints and they could lose salvation and new testament saints can't.
Let me ask you to give me examples of well known people that you believe have received the Holy Spirit and are sinless. Why haven't you received the Holy Spirit yet so you can be sinless? Is because it is a gift you are waiting for God to give it to you? You are living in a fantasy world with rose colored glasses. So answer the questions if you can because you have not shown that you know how to properly rebut another's view because all you know is your opinion. Try again. Jerry Kelso

Free-will is a false doctrine. There is no free-will, only the will of God, of which the will of man is subject to. This is one of your doctrinal problems, which is why you cannot accept predestination, a clear teaching of scripture that I've quoted you time and time again and you keep ignoring and discarding these scriptures, and then go and to say, "....but you haven't shown me...", yet I have indeed shown you, hence the scriptures I quoted you, but you keep rejecting them. How many times must I quote them for you to see? Can you not read? Are that that hard of seeing? I have quoted them to you....... Ephesians 1:11, Romans 8:30, Proverbs 16:4, Romans 11:32 are four scriptures, I also have an entire study on predestination here you should read up on, http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2015/12/19/god-preordains-predestines-chooses-rejects-and-foreknows/ . You are difficult person to reason with because your understanding is darkened, and in not understanding predestination you cannot understand many other things either, so this conversation with you is pointless, as this proverb holds true,

If a wise man goes to court with a fool, there will be ranting and raving but no resolution. (Proverbs 29:9 [HCSB])

I am not living in a fantasy world, I am perceiving things in truth according to the scriptures. If the scriptures say, "someone who is born of God cannot sin", then rest assured, I will believe it, and not try to ignore this saying or try to twist it to suit my lifestyle as most do. Come back to me when you've learned a thing or two concerning wisdom and predestination, then we can have a real conversation and perhaps edify each other.

 

[YHWH's Lion]

I perceive you are a Judaizer. You think by following these commandments literally that you will somehow be found without fault before God. These commandments are spiritual, not literal, and while you try to follow these commandments literally, you will find yourself ensnared by the penalty of the Law of Moses, which is death, because anyone living by it must follow every little dot of the Law of Moses. Let me ask you something, do you still sin? If your answer is yes, then you are a lawless person, breaker of the Law of Moses, deserving of death this very instant.

LOL, thats its? you completely ignore what i wrote and this is your answer?
We are not supposed to follow God's commandments literally?
I guess i will just go and kill, steal, kidnap, commit incest, bestiality ect ect.
You truly have much to learn, and you should start by asking God to humble you.

I have much to learn, yet you are the one trying to burden people to obey certain commandments of the Law of Moses that were meant to be followed spiritually? Do you still think that physical circumcision ought to be followed? Do you still think that animal sacrifices ought to be performed for atonement of sin? These are all commands of the Law of Moses. Should these also be fulfilled literally?

How does:
1 John 5:2,3 “his commandments are not grievous.”equal to what you wrote that "these are burdensome to people" how does coming together to worship God on the Sabbath or on his Holy Days "burdensome" how is gleaning wisdom from God's word and applying it to our lives "burdensome"

 

[cgaviria]

LOL, thats its? you completely ignore what i wrote and this is your answer?
We are not supposed to follow God's commandments literally?
I guess i will just go and kill, steal, kidnap, commit incest, bestiality ect ect.
You truly have much to learn, and you should start by asking God to humble you.




How does:
1 John 5:2,3 “his commandments are not grievous.”equal to what you wrote that "these are burdensome to people" how does coming together to worship God on the Sabbath or on his Holy Days "burdensome" how is gleaning wisdom from God's word and applying it to our lives "burdensome"

Did not the council of Jerusalem in the book of Acts consider these matters an unnecessary burden?

So why are you now challenging God by burdening the Gentile believers with a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear? (Acts 15:10 [NLT])

For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay no greater burden on you than these few requirements: You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. If you do this, you will do well. Farewell. (Acts 15:26-29 [NLT])

So yes, it is an unnecessary burden, and you yourself are destroying belief by telling people that they are sinning by not following the laws concerning foods and sabbaths, which are spiritual commandments. But even regardless of this, do you still believe that it is sinful to not circumcise a child on the 8th day in accordance with the Law of Moses? Answer me that.......

 

[YHWH's Lion]

Did not the council of Jerusalem in the book of Acts consider these matters an unnecessary burden?



So yes, it is an unnecessary burden, and you yourself are destroying belief by telling people that they are sinning by not following the laws concerning foods and sabbaths, which are spiritual commandments. But even regardless of this, do you still believe that it is sinful to not circumcise a child on the 8th day in accordance with the Law of Moses? Answer me that.......

First of all again you completely ignored what I wrote.
Secondly I am not telling anyone they are sinning. you should read what I wrote again. God will decide, not I.
As for Acts 15; have you
ever wondered why Acts 15 only lists 4 things that the gentiles shouldnt do? I guess the gentiles are allowed to kidnap people, kill people, steal, lie, practice witch craft and so on? no no, read verse 20 and 21 together. What is happening in Acts 15 is showing us how new Christians were supposed to be handled. And verse 21 tells us that they (the new christians) will learn the rest ALSO because Moses is preach every sabbath. We are saved by Jesus but the Jews were saying that they must keep the law in order to be saved. There is a difference between someone wanting to glean from God's Law wisdom and apply it to their lives and keeping God's Law in order to be saved. Do you understand? If someone wants to circumcise their child on the 8th day there is nothing wrong with that, because it isn't a salvational issue.

 

[cgaviria]

First of all again you completely ignored what I wrote.
Secondly I am not telling anyone they are sinning. you should read what I wrote again. God will decide, not I.
As for Acts 15; have you
ever wondered why Acts 15 only lists 4 things that the gentiles shouldnt do? I guess the gentiles are allowed to kidnap people, kill people, steal, lie, practice witch craft and so on? no no, read verse 20 and 21 together. What is happening in Acts 15 is showing us how new Christians were supposed to be handled. And verse 21 tells us that they (the new christians) will learn the rest ALSO because Moses is preach every sabbath. We are saved by Jesus but the Jews were saying that they must keep the law in order to be saved. There is a difference between someone wanting to glean from God's Law wisdom and apply it to their lives and keeping God's Law in order to be saved. Do you understand? If someone wants to circumcise their child on the 8th day there is nothing wrong with that, because it isn't a salvational issue.

Listing only those 4 requirement wasn't saying that gentiles are allowed to kidnap, what is wrong with you that you can't understand this simple passage? It simply means that they are not to be burdened with the one matter that relates to these 4 things, and what single matter is it referring to? The matter relating to food. Also, you just admitted that circumcision is not a salvation issue with, "because it isn't a salvational issue", yet according to the Law of Moses, if it is not done, the child is to be killed because he has broken the law,

Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant. (Genesis 17:14 [NIV])

So right now you are just admitting that there is indeed a commandment in the Law of Moses that isn't of importance anymore in relation to salvation, so whats to say that just as the commandment of circumcision is no longer of importance, being an extremely important commandment in the Law of Moses and an outward sign of the old covenant and bearing the death penalty if not done, that perhaps there are other commandments that have become less important as well, such as the laws of food, and of festivals, and even of sabbaths? There are matters of the law that are spiritual, such as circumcision of the heart, as opposed to circumcision of the flesh. The true sabbath in the thousand year rest, as opposed to the rest in one day of the week. The celebration of the festivals when they come into true fulfillment, one being the passover, in which Jesus Christ became the passover lamb. But yet just as there are spiritual matters of the law, there are also literal matters, such as stealing, murdering, fornication, adultery.... these are matters that are still to be followed literally. So one must distinguish between commandments that are to be fulfilled spiritually, and matters that are to be fulfilled literally. This is not so complicated of a matter, but I perceive you are a Judaizer, thinking that by following these matters of foods and sabbaths literally that somehow you are exceeding the righteousness of others in the belief of Jesus Christ.

 

[YHWH's Lion]

Listing only those 4 requirement wasn't saying that gentiles are allowed to kidnap, what is wrong with you that you can't understand this simple passage? It simply means that they are not to be burdened with the one matter that relates to these 4 things, and what single matter is it referring to? The matter relating to food. Also, you just admitted that circumcision is not a salvation issue with, "because it isn't a salvational issue", yet according to the Law of Moses, if it is not done, the child is to be killed because he has broken the law,


So right now you are just admitting that there is indeed a commandment in the Law of Moses that isn't of importance anymore in relation to salvation, so whats to say that just as the commandment of circumcision is no longer of importance, being an extremely important commandment in the Law of Moses and an outward sign of the old covenant and bearing the death penalty if not done, that perhaps there are other commandments that have become less important as well, such as the laws of food, and of festivals, and even of sabbaths? There are matters of the law that are spiritual, such as circumcision of the heart, as opposed to circumcision of the flesh. The true sabbath in the thousand year rest, as opposed to the rest in one day of the week. The celebration of the festivals when they come into true fulfillment, one being the passover, in which Jesus Christ became the passover lamb. But yet just as there are spiritual matters of the law, there are also literal matters, such as stealing, murdering, fornication, adultery.... these are matters that are still to be followed literally. So one must distinguish between commandments that are to be fulfilled spiritually, and matters that are to be fulfilled literally. This is not so complicated of a matter, but I perceive you are a Judaizer, thinking that by following these matters of foods and sabbaths literally that somehow you are exceeding the righteousness of others in the belief of Jesus Christ.

LOL ok buddy, I guess trying to glean wisdom from God's word and apply it to my life makes me "exceeding the righteousness of others" Why you are so set against this principle i do not know; but I am done arguing with you. Do as you want, and believe what you want Clearly you have no intention of learning and are stuck thinking you know everything. Good luck with that.