The word of God and the Law

RandyPNW

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God's word is irrevocable and eternal. The Law of Moses contained a testimony to the eternal word of God and His judgment upon all men, that they all are sinful and all must die. Until this is fulfilled the world will not be restored. This is what Jesus meant in Matthew 5.

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Every "stroke of a pen," or "small letter," indicates what the Law *means,* and does not infer that the Law will remain in effect *as a covenant* after the Cross. It just means that what the Law anticipated, namely the death of Christ and the death of all men, along with the failure of the covenant of Law, must take place before the present world ends. God's word of judgment against Adam can never fail. It must all come to pass.
 

SabbathBlessings

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God's word is irrevocable and eternal. The Law of Moses contained a testimony to the eternal word of God and His judgment upon all men, that they all are sinful and all must die. Until this is fulfilled the world will not be restored. This is what Jesus meant in Matthew 5.

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Every "stroke of a pen," or "small letter," indicates what the Law *means,* and does not infer that the Law will remain in effect *as a covenant* after the Cross.
Not something as small as and dot of on i or a cross of a t can pass (be removed) from God's law- Mat 5:19 therefore if one breaks or teaches others to break the least of these commandments (quoting from the Ten) one would be least in heaven. If you go to the next verse Mat 5:20 least means lost. I believe Jesus meant exactly what He stated but we have free will to test this or any theory we want.

I'm glad you agree God's Word is irrevocable and eternal which Jesus also equated the Ten Commandments as God's Word. And not one jot or tittle can be changed because we are not God or above His ways.


Mark 7:6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—[d]the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”

9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
It just means that what the Law anticipated, namely the death of Christ and the death of all men, along with the failure of the covenant of Law, must take place before the present world ends. God's word of judgment against Adam can never fail. It must all come to pass.
Your words not Christ's, we are to follow Christ teachings, not mans.

Jesus meant what He said- do not break the least of these commandments as one would be in fear of sin and judgment Mat 5:19-30

On that Great Day of the Lord:
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
God's Word doesn't need out help interpreting- Pro 30:5-6 Proverbs 3:5-6 just believe His teachings and trust He will lead us on the narrow path back to Him Rev 22:14
 
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RandyPNW

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Not something as small as and dot of on i or a cross of a t can pass (be removed) from God's law- Mat 5:19 therefore if one breaks or teaches others to break the least of these commandments (quoting from the Ten) one would be least in heaven. If you go to the next verse Mat 5:20 least means lost. I believe Jesus meant exactly what He stated but we have free will to test this or any theory we want.

I'm glad you agree God's Word is irrevocable and eternal which Jesus also equated the Ten Commandments as God's Word. And not one jot or tittle can be changed because we are not God or above His ways.
You completely ignored my point, that Jesus spoke of the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets, indicating that the Law was both a temporary rule and a prophetic message indicating it would not be permanent. As I've pointed out, Jer 31.31-32 indicates the New Covenant would be different from the Law. And the history of Israel, as reflected in the OT Scriptures, indicated that she would ultimately fail over and over as a partner in God's covenant of Law.

So what I'm saying is that the *message* conveyed by the Law, that Israel would fail, would have to be fulfilled--not that the covenant and the rules of the Law would continue forever. "Every dot" and every rule would be "fulfilled," indicating that righteousness would not prevail by the works of Israel, but rather, would have to be fulfilled by the righteousness of Christ, whose righteousness stood apart from the Law of sin and death.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You completely ignored my point, that Jesus spoke of the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets, indicating that the Law was both a temporary rule and a prophetic message indicating it would not be permanent. As I've pointed out, Jer 31.31-32 indicates the New Covenant would be different from the Law. And the history of Israel, as reflected in the OT Scriptures, indicated that she would ultimately fail over and over as a partner in God's covenant of Law.

So what I'm saying is that the *message* conveyed by the Law, that Israel would fail, would have to be fulfilled--not that the covenant and the rules of the Law would continue forever. "Every dot" and every rule would be "fulfilled," indicating that righteousness would not prevail by the works of Israel, but rather, would have to be fulfilled by the righteousness of Christ, whose righteousness stood apart from the Law of sin and death.
The only point that concerns me is Christs. He so clearly said heaven and earth would pass away, before anything would pass from His law. Heaven and Earth has not passed therefore we are not to break the least of His commandments as one would be in fear of sin and judgement. Mat 5:19-30

We ought to obey God over the teachings of man.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Until this is fulfilled the world will not be restored.
Are you saying Jesus Christ of Nazareth did not fulfill the law by His death, resurrection and ascension? Is there more He needs to do?
 
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RandyPNW

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Are you saying Jesus Christ of Nazareth did not fulfill the law by His death, resurrection and ascension? Is there more He needs to do?
No, certainly not. My argument is that what the Law *meant* had to be fulfilled, despite the fact it inevitably failed as a covenant. Jesus exhorted the Jews in his days to obey the Law completely in order to fully establish what God *meant* by the Law, namely that all of mankind are sinners destined to die and that Salvation comes by righteousness based on mercy.

The Law required atonements for sin, and as such indicated that righteousness that lasts had to come apart from itself and only by Christ's righteousness and by his atonement. The Law, based on a flawed priesthood, could only tell the story of Christ's righteousness. One was temporal, and the other was eternal.
 
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eleos1954

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God's word is irrevocable and eternal. The Law of Moses contained a testimony to the eternal word of God and His judgment upon all men, that they all are sinful and all must die. Until this is fulfilled the world will not be restored. This is what Jesus meant in Matthew 5.

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Every "stroke of a pen," or "small letter," indicates what the Law *means,* and does not infer that the Law will remain in effect *as a covenant* after the Cross. It just means that what the Law anticipated, namely the death of Christ and the death of all men, along with the failure of the covenant of Law, must take place before the present world ends. God's word of judgment against Adam can never fail. It must all come to pass.
Judgement requires law ... all will be judged from Adam until the Lord returns. Some will be pardoned .. some not. Judgement and who He pardons is completely up to Jesus.

Romans 14:10-12 English Standard Version 2016 (ESV)For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
 
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RandyPNW

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Judgement requires law ... all will be judged from Adam until the Lord returns. Some will be pardoned .. some not. Judgement and who He pardons is completely up to Jesus.

Romans 14:10-12 English Standard Version 2016 (ESV)For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Right. My discussion involves a differentiation between the Moral Law and the Mosaic Law. The Moral Law began at the creation of Man, made in the image and likeness of God. That meant that Man was given a natural propensity towards choosing to do things according to God's moral image. It was compliance with built-in Moral Law.

The Mosaic Law came much later, and was given only to Israel. They were the prototypical Chosen Nation, so that in the future many nations could adopt Divine Law for their respective peoples.

But Mosaic Law was based on a contract between God and Israel. It was anticipated from the beginning that the covenant would not last, and would be broken time and again. Eventually it was abandoned entirely, at a time when Israel, once again, committed apostasy and failed to do their part in the agreement. But it was also a time when the Law had been intended to be fulfilled by a new Law, as it were.

Christ came to bring this "New Law," based on a new covenant. It was Moral Law, once again, but it was based on a covenant between God and nations in which nations would adopt Christ as their Law.

So obviously, judgment requires law. But in Christ, failure under law is forgiven, based on our commitment to live in Christ. In that way, our flaws are overlooked, assuming we pursue righteousness with sincerity.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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No, certainly not. My argument is that what the Law *meant* had to be fulfilled, despite the fact it inevitably failed as a covenant. Jesus exhorted the Jews in his days to obey the Law completely in order to fully establish what God *meant* by the Law, namely that all of mankind are sinners destined to die and that Salvation comes by righteousness based on mercy.

The Law required atonements for sin, and as such indicated that righteousness that lasts had to come apart from itself and only by Christ's righteousness and by his atonement. The Law, based on a flawed priesthood, could only tell the story of Christ's righteousness. One was temporal, and the other was eternal.
We agree with some slight differences. We need to remember that the law was given to a " peculiar people", a mixed multitude. Before this, there was no law written in stone. Abraham was justified through faith and not the law. When the law was given it did not fail , it was broken. Salvation does not come by righteousness, it comes by faith. One can follow the letter of the law and have no faith. This is what Jesus Christ of Nazareth pointed out over and over.
So as the law was a " schoolmaster" the Master Himself laid out the path to everlasting life, faith through love and not works through the law. Even Jesus Christ of Nazareth veered from the written law ( adulterous woman) to point out how love shows one's faith and that the law points to a hardend heart. Be blessed.
 
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RandyPNW

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We agree with some slight differences. We need to remember that the law was given to a " peculiar people", a mixed multitude. Before this, there was no law written in stone. Abraham was justified through faith and not the law. When the law was given it did not fail , it was broken. Salvation does not come by righteousness, it comes by faith. One can follow the letter of the law and have no faith. This is what Jesus Christ of Nazareth pointed out over and over.
So as the law was a " schoolmaster" the Master Himself laid out the path to everlasting life, faith through love and not works through the law. Even Jesus Christ of Nazareth veered from the written law ( adulterous woman) to point out how love shows one's faith and that the law points to a hardend heart. Be blessed.
Yes, it seems we're not far apart on most of this, although some of it may simply be semantical differences or slight variations in how we describe the process. It is difficult but I'll try to point some of this out.

The fact the Law was not written in stone prior to the Law of Moses is of no consequence. God did not deem it necessary.

To say that Abraham was not justified by the Law, but only through faith, is fraught with difficulty because it involves a point of orthodoxy without much explanation. We know that in accord with Paul's theology we are not saved by the Law of Moses, which at any rate, most of us were not affected by, since we aren't Jewish. We are saved by faith in Christ.

But what does this mean? Does it mean that righteousness plays no role in our faith in Christ? Of course not! We are putting our faith in Christ and in his righteousness. So righteousness clearly plays a role in our Salvation, as we adopt his righteousness as our law, so to speak.

We are not "earning" our Salvation, but in choosing Christ we have to demonstrate that we are truly choosing him by putting into motion his righteousness in our lives. So Salvation is one thing, but proving it is another. Christ did the work of Salvation. We adopt it by faith and prove our sincerity by demonstrating his righteousness in our lives.

Clearly, we can do good deeds without fully embracing Christ as our exclusive source of righteousness. This is a "mixed righteousness," as such, sometimes producing Christ's righteousness and at other times producing an imitation of it. This is not Salvation. It is adopting some of Christ's righteousness, but not Christ himself, who is to be our Lord and God.

To say that the Law "failed" is a semantical difficulty. It failed, I believe, in the sense that Israel could not, ultimately, succeed as a nation under that contract by keeping their end of the bargain. But as a program leading to faith in Christ, it was not a failure, and led both to the Church of all nations, and ultimately will lead, I believe, to Israel's national salvation under Christ in the future.

When we talk about the Law being "broke," it is the same reality being put in different terms. The Law was never meant to bring Eternal Life, but only to keep Israel in relationship with God, using temporary symbols of redemption. Israel could live in God's good keeping as long as they complied with these temporary mitigating elements of the Law in good faith.

But inasmuch as the Law could never provide Eternal Life, it always displayed Israel's failure to obtain the same. As good as Israel could do under the Law it still showed human imperfection and disqualification from obtaining Eternal Life. As such, the Law always appeared "broken."

But as a system and as a program leading to final redemption the Law certainly did not "fail." Though we're all proven by the Law to be "sinners," redemption does succeed in coming into our lives by faith, among those who are willing. And Israel will ultimately be restored as a nation of God, along with the many other nations who are called to the same.

That's probably the best I can do right now. ;)
 
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