Why do the laws of the OT not apply today?

[cgaviria]

cgaviria,

1. Sin has always been sin in each age, before the law of Moses and after the Moses.

2. The antediluvians did not have a written law but the conscience was their guide even though not always the best because your conscience could be seared.
Cain killed Abel and there was no mandatory law about murder or a specific judgement but he know people would be bucking for him and this is why he asked God for protection.
Under the law murder was death and fornication and a child sassing their parents were stoning. Today fornication is still wrong but it doesn't carry a penalty of stoning.

3. I understand some lack of understanding of the law of Moses being holy and good compared to the self effort and defeat and abolishment of the weakness of the commandment. The bible goes to great lengths to show the differences to the Hebrews and the gentiles through Paul the apostle and whoever wrote Hebrews which I lean more to the apostle Paul.

4. The early church was jews and proselyted gentiles from Christ ministry which was under the old covenant of the law of Moses.

5. Christ expounded the law and the prophets concerning his Messiahship and being the Savior and why he had to fulfill what they said of him. However, they didn't know everything about the change of old to new and this is because of gradual revelation and they were not told of every jot and tittle of the difference especially about the gentiles and the body of Christ in a different context of the church.

6. Peter and the apostles still had the KoH in their mind before Christ arose and Christ said it wasn't for them to know. The jews had the covenants and the apostles knew the message had changed of how to attain unto salvation through the new covenant but they didn't fully understand the church and the body of Christ in its completion.

7. It was 8 to 10 years later before Peter got the vision of the clean and the unclean but he could not fight God. Paul gave in greater detail of the jew and gentile in one body alike and the separation of jew and gentile.

8. The law was to be forever for the jew but the law of Moses was until the seed should come. This sounds like an oxymoron or contradiction but the law itself could only say Thou shalt not and could not draw people to God to carry out the command and could not save a person. It took the God-man as the savior of the world to redeem man from sin.

9. Contrary to popular belief the law had different purposes in a different context. The law was not of faith and yet it was also holy and good. It was good if performed but the spirit of life is greater because of the person of Christ in helping us to perform the commandment. It doesn't mean that the new covenant believer is better or will always perform the commandment any better than the old covenant believer but the possibility is greater for obedience under the new than the old.

10. A jew would argue that the law was to be who you are and in the long run I would agree. There were many jews who are very much more disciplined than new covenant believers in obedience. However, it was through self effort many times because of the law of sin and death taking the advantage of the Mosaic law's weakness. The good things of the law are magnified much greater in the new covenant of the perfect one. This is why the new covenant was built on better promises and different than the old covenant.

11. The jews culture was wrapped up in all of the law and because the law was moral and spiritual is why many doctrines about the sabbath (which is not really moral) and the keeping of the dietary law etc are carried to the extreme and are made doctrines that have to be performed.
Jesus wanted them to be perfect according to the law and some did perform the law perfectly so it was not impossible to perform the law perfectly at all like some believe. He told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more and to us he says to abstain from all appearance of evil.
Under the law they were to be perfect to be blessed but that didn't mean they would attain it in every jot and tittle and the new covenant is no different otherwise God would be a respector of persons.

12. The law was perfect if done but man is imperfect and Jesus is perfect and we are still imperfect.

13. Peter said the flesh has ceased from sin so it wouldn't fulfill the things of the flesh and Paul said he did everything to mortify the members of his body otherwise he would could be a reprobate and he was a christian.

14. It is no doubt that God's strength is all powerful and if it pervaded our lives completely 24-7 we could technically perform sinless acts all through our christian lives. It is a possibility not necessarily a probability.

15. John said, all unrighteousness is sin and that covers alot of ground and God wants us to depend on him because we are still in training. 2 Timothy 2:12.

16. The sin struggle is over in the new nature about who's one master is and so we won't sin. Peter said this in the context of suffering of which we are to arm ourselves with that same mind.
17. God's purpose is in predestination of the foreknowledge of God and his redemptive plan to save us. This doesn't mean he will do everything for us or that because we will automatically do everything the Holy Spirit leads us to do. In your context of receiving the Holy Spirit and then you will be sinless type of mindset is very naive and is being ignorant of satan's devices. Paul said, to be careful if you think you stand then you will fall. Even of the most humble men of faith down through history understand their shortcomings though maybe not like many christians today that may not understand how much God hates sin or takes it for granted.

18. Now I understand truth is truth and God can bring forth irresistible grace through his love and those who gravitate to God most likely will grab a hold of it but this doesn't mean that those who don't gravitate normally to him cannot grab a hold of it either. God told the jews to choose life in order to be blessed because he had set forth his purpose for their lives but they had to choose to cooperate with him. There is no covenant connected to man and salvation of his soul that is not conditioned by obedience. And there is no where that shows a christian will never fall into sin for any reason. Even Peter gave the condition in 1 Peter 1:8 when we have the right virtues; For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. The word if is conditional of virtues being in a christian. But those lacking these virtues is blind and has forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. This shows christians can sin after they receive the Holy Ghost of which Peter had received on the Day of Pentecost.

19. John said he that knoweth to do good and doeth it not it is sin. Peter after being saved and receiving the Holy Ghost got in trouble for being a respect of persons and knew better and Paul called him down on it. God didn't preordain him to sin but he did.

20. Predestination is based on the knowledge of his purpose and destiny for man to attain being conformed to the image of God's son. In the context of being a christian things will be attained but it doesn't mean that God will make us do those things just because we are in the club. Israel thought because they were in the club in Ezekiel's day and that God would not judge them and take away their salvation and he told them he would unless they would ask for forgiveness and the same was for a gentile who didn't know him.

21. If you think that you will be sinless after receiving the Holy Spirit God you will learn otherwise sooner or later. This doesn't mean that I wish you to sin even more than God but in Romans 8 Paul said he had a made up mind that nothing would separate him from the love of God and at the same time the things he listed about tribulation, etc. he knew would not effect God but man. God requires cooperation in obedience with our freewill choice and he will not go over the churches head in rulership training. We are not in the perfected state yet and this body is tainted with sin and must be resurrected and we must pass our earthly test before we receive the crown of perfection with no chance of sinning.

22. Philippians 3 talks about apprehending perfection of the body and the spiritual aspect of being perfect without possibility of missing the mark.

23. Last, but not least, is the state of abiding in Christ and doing those things that bring forth the fruits of perfection is true, but this doesn't mean that we have no possibility or cannot fall into sin or that we have no freewill choice. The condition is always there just like Paul said in Galatians 5; Walk in the spirit and you won't fulfill the things of the flesh. The condition is walking in the Spirit. The absolute of this coming to pass is in the condition and the state of and not because God will make us do it.

14. You can manipulate the motive all you want but the condition and the possibility of not being perfect is there. Jerry kelso

The whole purpose of the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ was not only to atone for sins once and for all, but its purpose was also to bring an end to sin. Hence why we have this prophecy concerning him,

Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. (Daniel 9:24 [ESV])

And then now after the blood of Jesus was shed, we have this scripture,

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. (1 John 3:6 [KJV])

So how is it possible to actually stop sinning and be freed by the inner corrupt nature? It is by receiving holy spirit. Anything birthed by holy spirit sins no more. Hence why even Jesus, being conceived by holy spirit, did not sin, and which is why it is necessary to be "born again". Once you are rebirthed in holy spirit, no one is actually able to sin anymore, because your wicked desires are even removed from within you to cause you to not sin. This corresponds with this prophecy in Ezekiel concerning the new spirit given,

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. (Ezekiel 36:26-27 [NIV])

The "heart" is where the desires are. So this means, that God will remove your old wicked desires, and give you new desires. Once you truly receive holy spirit, you are caused to follow after God, and can no longer sin, it is impossible to do so, if you truly have holy spirit. These are very simple matters, but since most people are caught up in their sins and their way of life and cares of the world, they simply deny these things, and instead, take on a form of godliness that professes Jesus Christ, yet permits sins and think that by constantly praying to God for forgiveness that somehow this is the way to eonian life.

 

[Albion]

In certain areas or respects?

Yes. The question you (and lots of Seventh Day Adventists before you) pose is based upon the presumption or assumption that everything established by God for the Hebrew people prior to the coming of the Savior was to remain unchanged forever.

In itself, that's a strange argument, considering that it is inherent in the Christian religion to believe that the teachings, crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Christ fundamentally changed the relationship between God and Men. Beyond that, however, the New Testament very clearly identifies which religious duties that applied during the era before Christ are to be retained and which are set aside.

 

[cgaviria]

Yes. The question you (and lots of Seventh Day Adventists before you) pose is based upon the presumption or assumption that everything established by God for the Hebrew people prior to the coming of the Savior was to remain unchanged forever.

In itself, that's a strange argument, considering that it is inherent in the Christian religion to believe that the teachings, crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Christ fundamentally changed the relationship between God and Men. Beyond that, however, the New Testament very clearly identifies which religious duties that applied during the era before Christ are to be retained and which are set aside.

Sin is the thing that has been removed in the new covenant. Hence those other scriptures I provided.

 

[Albion]

Sin is the thing that has been removed in the new covenant.

Sin is not ALL that has been changed (or removed), however.

 

[cgaviria]

Sin is not ALL that has been changed (or removed), however.

This is obvious, as there are things that have changed indeed, such as not performing literal circumcisions anymore. But the most important of matters concerning the new covenant is not sinning anymore by receiving holy spirit. Do you agree or disagree?

 

[Albion]

This is obvious, as there are things that have changed indeed, such as not performing literal circumcisions anymore. But the most important of matters concerning the new covenant is not sinning anymore by receiving holy spirit. Do you agree or disagree?

I cannot answer that without knowing what you mean by that statement. If you mean to say that men become sinless now through some kind of reception of "holy spirit," I (like most Christians) have to disagree.

 

[cgaviria]

I cannot answer that without knowing what you mean by that statement. If you mean to say that men become sinless now through some kind of reception of "holy spirit," I (like most Christians) have to disagree.

And yes, I do mean sinless, because this is was the whole point of the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ, was not only to atone for sin, but to bring it to an end. If it didn't bring an end to sin, then it is renders the new covenant no different than the blood of animals, which were able to atone for sins, but not able to cause a man to stop sinning. This is where you are mistaken. Unless you become sinless, and unless you become perfect, you cannot attain the salvation. As no one not truly having holy spirit and this divine nature it imparts can truly please God.

 

[Albion]

And yes, I do mean sinless, because this is was the whole point of the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ, was not only to atone for sin, but to bring it to an end.

Then we disagree. Or maybe I should say that almost the whole of Christian thinking disagrees with your thesis. Where'd you pick it up, if I may ask?

 

[cgaviria]

Then we disagree. Or maybe I should say that almost the whole of Christian thinking disagrees with your thesis. Where'd you pick it up, if I may ask?

From the scriptures I quoted you and others as well. And yes most christians do disagree, as most christians are deceived by various false doctrines, including this one. True is this saying,

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (Matthew 7:24 [ESV])

 

[Albion]

I think you've misunderstood all of them. Take, for example, the most recent of them--Matt 7:24. There isn't a thing in it that supports what you've been saying.

 

[jerry kelso]

The whole purpose of the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ was not only to atone for sins once and for all, but its purpose was also to bring an end to sin. Hence why we have this prophecy concerning him,


And then now after the blood of Jesus was shed, we have this scripture,


So how is it possible to actually stop sinning and be freed by the inner corrupt nature? It is by receiving holy spirit. Anything birthed by holy spirit sins no more. Hence why even Jesus, being conceived by holy spirit, did not sin, and which is why it is necessary to be "born again". Once you are rebirthed in holy spirit, no one is actually able to sin anymore, because your wicked desires are even removed from within you to cause you to not sin. This corresponds with this prophecy in Ezekiel concerning the new spirit given,


The "heart" is where the desires are. So this means, that God will remove your old wicked desires, and give you new desires. Once you truly receive holy spirit, you are caused to follow after God, and can no longer sin, it is impossible to do so, if you truly have holy spirit. These are very simple matters, but since most people are caught up in their sins and their way of life and cares of the world, they simply deny these things, and instead, take on a form of godliness that professes Jesus Christ, yet permits sins and think that by constantly praying to God for forgiveness that somehow this is the way to eonian life.

cgvaria,

1. Daniel 9:24-27 you are reading wrong. This is about the travail of Israel and the holy city which is in verse 24. To make an end for sins and reconciliation for iniquity is for the nation of Israel's sin so they can enter into their covenant. This sealing up the vision and prophecy had to do this travail and anointing the most Holy. Anointing the most Holy refers to the cleansing of the Holy of Holies, the temple and the city of Jerusalem from the abomination of desolation and the sacrilege of Gentiles and to the establishment and anointing of the Millennial temple of Ezekiel 40-43; Zechariah 6:12, 13. The most Holy was never used for the Messiah by the jews who is distinguished from this term in this passage by the title Messiah.

2. Making an end to sins penalty was done at Calvary. But sin still abounds in the world and even christians have the possibility of sinning and need forgiveness. 1 John 2:2. Christ is the propitiation for our (christians) sins and the sins of the whole world.

3. When Israel comes back to God the millennial kingdom will be set up by Christ and his saints with Israel at the head of the nations and the law will go forth from earth Mt. Zion. Isaiah 2:2-4. Then sin will come to an end for society as a rule. But, their will be those who do not love Christ and if they do sin they will be punished with the rod of Iron. The purpose of the millennial kingdom is to rid sin and all rebellion for Christ must reign till he has put away sin and death once and for all. 1 Corinthians 15:25-26.

4. At the end of the 1000 years Satan will be loosed from the pit to deceive the nations once more and God from Heaven will send fire from Heaven and instantly kill them and the devil will be thrown into the lake of fire for good with all his angels and children of sin who followed him forever. Then the son will deliver up the kingdom to the father who gave it to him and God will be all in all because the earth will be in complete harmony with God's universe and this will be the perfect sinless state of all people of God. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and Revelation 20.

5. Daniel 9 has to do with Israel's travail and receiving of the new covenant as a nation to fulfill their covenants and this has not happened yet. This is why Jeremiah 31:31-34 has not happened yet as well as Hebrews 8:7-13 for Israel. This is the context and you are wrong, especially if you don't think Israel still has a covenant that they will fulfill, for it is eternal and started with David concerning the kingdom 1 Chronicles 28 and Isaiah 9:6-7 and the land which is in Genesis 12.

6. The Holy Spirit is the agent to put Jesus into the body. The Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues was to be empowered to be witnesses throughout the world. The Holy Spirit gift of tongues and interpretation were for the unsaved which is equal to prophecy. The Holy Spirit can also use this gift for edification of the church because all the gifts are to be for the edification of the church and make them stronger. The Holy Spirit of speaking in a heavenly language of which Paul spoke in more than the rest was edification for himself and it can be interpreted if one prays for the interpretation. The Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues all at the same time in church edifies oneself and is called congregational tongues. This happened at the Day of Pentecost. Being earthly languages was to signify the Holy Spirit had come. This doesn't mean that message in tongues and interpretation have to be earth languages for their are heavenly languages in 1 Corinthians 13:1.
God moves in the supernatural and whether it fits our criteria or not he will not be put in a box and it is either real or not real. We are to try the spirits to see if it is real but the problem is that most people don't believe that speaking in tongues is true in the first place.

7. To your point about being able to be perfect; the word perfect is about being perfect in love. Now I understand the argument of being perfect in love and being perfect to the commandment. However, Jesus knew the jew under the old covenant could not be perfect but it was his purpose for them to live perfectly. It was a possibility for some lived perfectly to the law at times but it was not a consistent living perfectly as Israel the nation is the greatest example of this.
The same is today except we have greater access to God and an easier way to live free from sin. This doesn't do away with the possibility of missing the mark.
8. Jesus was not conceived in sin because he could not be made sin at his birth because he had to be the spotless lamb without blemish to die for the world and he had to live the law perfectly. God has given us the possibility to live free from sin but he knows human error and shortcomings in cooperation and that is why he provides grace and mercy for when we do fall short. Hebrews 4:16.
He requires cooperation but he requires obedience on our part of freewill choice. We are to trust and obey and believe in faith he will perform the work in us but that doesn't always happen.

9. Technically a shortcoming that is not considered righteous could be a sin but not necessarily a sin unto death. John contrasts the sin unto death and not unto death. Verse 16 of 1 John says; If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. This brother is talking about a fellow christian in this context. And yet you try to use 1 John 3:8-9 as proof of a christian living sinless forever as a christian with no possibility of sinning. And now you are trying to convince us that when one receives the Holy Spirit one will be sinless without any possibility of sinning. Paul said we are baptized and drink in one Spirit so we already have the Holy Spirit within us when we are saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13.

10. Ezekiel concerns the new covenant with Israel and their covenant of the kingdom will begin and sin will come to an end in the government etc. I have already explained this above and so you have the wrong time frame and the wrong complete understanding of what that phrase means in the big picture.

11. Once again you have demonstrated that you have not put all the scriptures together to harmonize properly. This is why you cannot rebut the scriptures I gave for the true context and it is why you would not answer my question about after you are saved and you sin did that mean God predestined you to do that? Of course now I guess you are going to say yes until you receive the Holy Spirit. But I have proved here that that wouldn't be true either for we drink of the same Spirit and he leads us and guides us into all truth if we cooperate.

12. I believe in living sinless is what we should strive for and it should stem from who we are in Christ. But to say that I have no possibility to sin and if I do I don't have the Holy Spirit as a christian is not true and not logical because the devil is out there to steal, kill, and destroy us and God has not made us robots and we have not entered the perfected state yet. The process has not been completed. Living sinless from the time of birth as a christian to the grace is possible if it only relied on the power of God. Since God demands cooperation of obedience on our part from a freewill mind and choice then the possibility is there not to cooperate. The devil didn't know anything about sin and God did not tempt him to sin but he sinned. Why? Because the program with freewill and created beings is freewill choice and this is why the created either serve or don't serve the creator. It wasn't because God predestinated man to sin for he hates sin. Satan sinned because he had pride in his heart and he had a taste of rulership in his position on earth in the pre-adamite world of the garden of Eden and he defiled the sanctuaries. Ezekiel 28. This is the nature of freewill choice of freewill moral agents to serve the Creator of the universe and it is all about true agape love. True Love is reciprocal and not one sided and it is freely chosen and not forced. 1 Corinthians 13 shows true love that never fails and God predestinating sin is not true love and this is the same critique sinners give not to serve God because they think we are in this experiment and God is playing around with us by cruel and unusual punishment. Predestination is about God's redemptive purpose for our lives and not saving some and not others. Your view of predestination thwarts the whole plan of God and his true love for us because he damns some of them and not others when he said he is willing that none should perish but have everlasting life. If he has predestinated some to stay in sin then he would not go to great lengths to have the Holy Spirit to convict of sin and doubt of all men.

13. The antediluvians knew about God and they were convicted of sin and doubt and knew they needed a savior and were drawn to him in this respect and refused to keep him in their memory. God has to show every man their need for the Savior no matter what age and no matter what kind of revelation they might have of God. Romans 2 talks about how God will judge every man in every age and how that it will be fair. You cannot prove your doctrine except to misunderstand the context and not reconcile all the scriptures together properly. I am sorry but your view is not scriptural. Jerry kelso
God Jerry kelso

 

[cgaviria]

I think you've misunderstood all of them. Take, for example, the most recent of them--Matt 7:24. There isn't a thing in it that supports what you've been saying.

How does this scripture in Matthew 7:24 refute what I am telling you? Does it say, "you may sin"?

 

[Albion]

How does this scripture in Matthew 7:24 refute what I am telling you? Does it say, "you may sin"?

It doesn't deal with the issue you were speaking of.

 

[cgaviria]

cgvaria,

1. Daniel 9:24-27 you are reading wrong. This is about the travail of Israel and the holy city which is in verse 24. To make an end for sins and reconciliation for iniquity is for the nation of Israel's sin so they can enter into their covenant. This sealing up the vision and prophecy had to do this travail and anointing the most Holy. Anointing the most Holy refers to the cleansing of the Holy of Holies, the temple and the city of Jerusalem from the abomination of desolation and the sacrilege of Gentiles and to the establishment and anointing of the Millennial temple of Ezekiel 40-43; Zechariah 6:12, 13. The most Holy was never used for the Messiah by the jews who is distinguished from this term in this passage by the title Messiah.

2. Making an end to sins penalty was done at Calvary. But sin still abounds in the world and even christians have the possibility of sinning and need forgiveness. 1 John 2:2. Christ is the propitiation for our (christians) sins and the sins of the whole world.

3. When Israel comes back to God the millennial kingdom will be set up by Christ and his saints with Israel at the head of the nations and the law will go forth from earth Mt. Zion. Isaiah 2:2-4. Then sin will come to an end for society as a rule. But, their will be those who do not love Christ and if they do sin they will be punished with the rod of Iron. The purpose of the millennial kingdom is to rid sin and all rebellion for Christ must reign till he has put away sin and death once and for all. 1 Corinthians 15:25-26.

4. At the end of the 1000 years Satan will be loosed from the pit to deceive the nations once more and God from Heaven will send fire from Heaven and instantly kill them and the devil will be thrown into the lake of fire for good with all his angels and children of sin who followed him forever. Then the son will deliver up the kingdom to the father who gave it to him and God will be all in all because the earth will be in complete harmony with God's universe and this will be the perfect sinless state of all people of God. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and Revelation 20.

5. Daniel 9 has to do with Israel's travail and receiving of the new covenant as a nation to fulfill their covenants and this has not happened yet. This is why Jeremiah 31:31-34 has not happened yet as well as Hebrews 8:7-13 for Israel. This is the context and you are wrong, especially if you don't think Israel still has a covenant that they will fulfill, for it is eternal and started with David concerning the kingdom 1 Chronicles 28 and Isaiah 9:6-7 and the land which is in Genesis 12.

6. The Holy Spirit is the agent to put Jesus into the body. The Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues was to be empowered to be witnesses throughout the world. The Holy Spirit gift of tongues and interpretation were for the unsaved which is equal to prophecy. The Holy Spirit can also use this gift for edification of the church because all the gifts are to be for the edification of the church and make them stronger. The Holy Spirit of speaking in a heavenly language of which Paul spoke in more than the rest was edification for himself and it can be interpreted if one prays for the interpretation. The Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues all at the same time in church edifies oneself and is called congregational tongues. This happened at the Day of Pentecost. Being earthly languages was to signify the Holy Spirit had come. This doesn't mean that message in tongues and interpretation have to be earth languages for their are heavenly languages in 1 Corinthians 13:1.
God moves in the supernatural and whether it fits our criteria or not he will not be put in a box and it is either real or not real. We are to try the spirits to see if it is real but the problem is that most people don't believe that speaking in tongues is true in the first place.

7. To your point about being able to be perfect; the word perfect is about being perfect in love. Now I understand the argument of being perfect in love and being perfect to the commandment. However, Jesus knew the jew under the old covenant could not be perfect but it was his purpose for them to live perfectly. It was a possibility for some lived perfectly to the law at times but it was not a consistent living perfectly as Israel the nation is the greatest example of this.
The same is today except we have greater access to God and an easier way to live free from sin. This doesn't do away with the possibility of missing the mark.
8. Jesus was not conceived in sin because he could not be made sin at his birth because he had to be the spotless lamb without blemish to die for the world and he had to live the law perfectly. God has given us the possibility to live free from sin but he knows human error and shortcomings in cooperation and that is why he provides grace and mercy for when we do fall short. Hebrews 4:16.
He requires cooperation but he requires obedience on our part of freewill choice. We are to trust and obey and believe in faith he will perform the work in us but that doesn't always happen.

9. Technically a shortcoming that is not considered righteous could be a sin but not necessarily a sin unto death. John contrasts the sin unto death and not unto death. Verse 16 of 1 John says; If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. This brother is talking about a fellow christian in this context. And yet you try to use 1 John 3:8-9 as proof of a christian living sinless forever as a christian with no possibility of sinning. And now you are trying to convince us that when one receives the Holy Spirit one will be sinless without any possibility of sinning. Paul said we are baptized and drink in one Spirit so we already have the Holy Spirit within us when we are saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13.

10. Ezekiel concerns the new covenant with Israel and their covenant of the kingdom will begin and sin will come to an end in the government etc. I have already explained this above and so you have the wrong time frame and the wrong complete understanding of what that phrase means in the big picture.

11. Once again you have demonstrated that you have not put all the scriptures together to harmonize properly. This is why you cannot rebut the scriptures I gave for the true context and it is why you would not answer my question about after you are saved and you sin did that mean God predestined you to do that? Of course now I guess you are going to say yes until you receive the Holy Spirit. But I have proved here that that wouldn't be true either for we drink of the same Spirit and he leads us and guides us into all truth if we cooperate.

12. I believe in living sinless is what we should strive for and it should stem from who we are in Christ. But to say that I have no possibility to sin and if I do I don't have the Holy Spirit as a christian is not true and not logical because the devil is out there to steal, kill, and destroy us and God has not made us robots and we have not entered the perfected state yet. The process has not been completed. Living sinless from the time of birth as a christian to the grace is possible if it only relied on the power of God. Since God demands cooperation of obedience on our part from a freewill mind and choice then the possibility is there not to cooperate. The devil didn't know anything about sin and God did not tempt him to sin but he sinned. Why? Because the program with freewill and created beings is freewill choice and this is why the created either serve or don't serve the creator. It wasn't because God predestinated man to sin for he hates sin. Satan sinned because he had pride in his heart and he had a taste of rulership in his position on earth in the pre-adamite world of the garden of Eden and he defiled the sanctuaries. Ezekiel 28. This is the nature of freewill choice of freewill moral agents to serve the Creator of the universe and it is all about true agape love. True Love is reciprocal and not one sided and it is freely chosen and not forced. 1 Corinthians 13 shows true love that never fails and God predestinating sin is not true love and this is the same critique sinners give not to serve God because they think we are in this experiment and God is playing around with us by cruel and unusual punishment. Predestination is about God's redemptive purpose for our lives and not saving some and not others. Your view of predestination thwarts the whole plan of God and his true love for us because he damns some of them and not others when he said he is willing that none should perish but have everlasting life. If he has predestinated some to stay in sin then he would not go to great lengths to have the Holy Spirit to convict of sin and doubt of all men.

13. The antediluvians knew about God and they were convicted of sin and doubt and knew they needed a savior and were drawn to him in this respect and refused to keep him in their memory. God has to show every man their need for the Savior no matter what age and no matter what kind of revelation they might have of God. Romans 2 talks about how God will judge every man in every age and how that it will be fair. You cannot prove your doctrine except to misunderstand the context and not reconcile all the scriptures together properly. I am sorry but your view is not scriptural. Jerry kelso
God Jerry kelso

Truly is this proverb true in your long spiel concerning these simple matters,

By many words you shall not flee from sin; but in the sparing of your lips you will be intelligent. (Proverbs 10:19 [ABP])

I see you are erring in many things in this long spiel, here are certain matters you are in error in,

• The "pre-adamite world", this is a false teaching saying that somehow the 5 literal days prior to Adam coming into existence were instead many years. If you can't even understand and believe the literal 7 day account of creation as Genesis reveals, then how could you possibly understand greater matters?
• Your stance on predestination not knowing how God works. God is indeed love, but he is also a consuming fire. He loves those that are his, whom he has chosen, which is why he has shown them mercy and forgiven them, and hates those who he did not choose and has purposed for them to be destroyed in a great fire to come that he may demonstrate his power and judgment.
• Saying that a believer can still sin. Anyone having holy spirit cannot sin, it is impossible. If any believer should sin, they have not truly received holy spirit.
• Daniel 9 has happened, that was the prediction of the messiah to come, and he did indeed come in that 490 year time from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time Jesus appeared. To deny this is nonsensical.

 

[cgaviria]

It doesn't deal with the issue you were speaking of.

This is a nonsensical logic. Its like grabbing any scripture at random and saying, "well this scripture doesn't mention what you're saying". It doesn't have to. All scriptures are to reconcile and harmonize with one another. So if one scripture says this, and another says that, and but the one that says that doesn't mention the one that says this, you are to understand and believe both scriptures, and harmonize them with one another, and not discard one or the other.

 

[Albion]

This is a nonsensical logic.

It isn't a matter of "logic" at all! That verse simply does not address the theory you were talking about.

 

[cgaviria]

It isn't a matter of "logic" at all! That verse simply does not address the theory you were talking about.

Of course it is, not every scripture is obligated to "address" or mention other scriptures. To say that one scripture must address another scripture is foolish and not logical. This is how the texts were passed down to us, and we must harmonize each scripture with each other, not discard an entire doctrine mentioned in other scriptures on the premise that they aren't mentioned in one scripture. This is nonsensical and completely ignoring other scriptures. This is your "own understanding", which is indeed your "own logic". This is something I cannot open your eyes to, only the Father can. I have nothing further to say to you as we will carry on endlessly with each other on this topic,

If a wise man goes to court with a fool, there will be ranting and raving but no resolution. (Proverbs 29:9 [HCSB])

 

[Albion]

Of course it is, not every scripture is obligated to "address" or mention other scriptures.

 

[jerry kelso]

Truly is this proverb true in your long spiel concerning these simple matters,


I see you are erring in many things in this long spiel, here are certain matters you are in error in,

• The "pre-adamite world", this is a false teaching saying that somehow the 5 literal days prior to Adam coming into existence were instead many years. If you can't even understand and believe the literal 7 day account of creation as Genesis reveals, then how could you possibly understand greater matters?
• Your stance on predestination not knowing how God works. God is indeed love, but he is also a consuming fire. He loves those that are his, whom he has chosen, which is why he has shown them mercy and forgiven them, and hates those who he did not choose and has purposed for them to be destroyed in a great fire to come that he may demonstrate his power and judgment.
• Saying that a believer can still sin. Anyone having holy spirit cannot sin, it is impossible. If any believer should sin, they have not truly received holy spirit.
• Daniel 9 has happened, that was the prediction of the messiah to come, and he did indeed come in that 490 year time from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time Jesus appeared. To deny this is nonsensical.

cagaviria,

1. You obviously do not understand about exegesis and that is why your interpretation is one sided.

2. The pre-adamite world doesn't prevent a 7 day creation. We don't know how long it was before Genesis 1:1and verse 2. You are wrong again.

3. God love his whole creation and longs for all to be saved. He loves his children for they have chosen to be saved from sin and live for him as their master. Romans 6 to the christians; you are servants of who you yield yourselves to whether Satan or God before or after you are saved.
He does show mercy to his children and rightly so and he shows mercy to the unsaved in having long suffering through opportunities of grace until he knows they have passed the point of no return or they die before their time.

4. Yes, he hates the wicked because they refuse to obey him and not because he predestinates them to go to jail, do not pass go and do not collect eternal life. This is because of the program of free wills who have a choice and chance to cooperate. God prepared hell for the devil and his angels specifically and not the human race. However, because of temptations by the evil father of lies those who decided to follow the devil and not be saved in their probationary period on earth will go to hell. The purpose is for the wicked to be punished eternally so earth will be free from the onslaught of sin and the devil and the great confrontation of God vs. Satan for ultimate ruler of the universe will be done once and for all. God is a God of order and he is a just God and in your context he cannot be just morally and spiritually just because he has the power to do it. He has to have a pure motive in judging the heart. I am sure you would say that sin is the motive and it is the result of sin that would make a pure motive. At the same time God has to have a pure motive and him predestinating them in your context would make him an ogre to humanity. If you take your logic then when your child sins against God or you in disobedience he may be disowned by you or sent to hell by God because he broke the commandment. Now you may not say that but that is where your train of thought leads to because you believe predestinates everything.

5. Daniel 9 has not happened in the proper context with the covenant of the new covenant with the nation of Israel. If you think it has your are living with rose colored glasses at reality. Other than that you would have to believe in the extremes of the spiritual Israel doctrine and the grafting in etc.
You would be better served to stop expounding on what you think the answer is until you can answer my question of God preordaining everything. Did he predestinate you to sin in your everyday christian life or not? If you have to wait for the Holy Spirit to come in then you cannot even be saved. This is your dilemma and you are wrong again. Jerry kelso

 

[cgaviria]

cagaviria,

1. You obviously do not understand about exegesis and that is why your interpretation is one sided.

2. The pre-adamite world doesn't prevent a 7 day creation. We don't know how long it was before Genesis 1:1and verse 2. You are wrong again.

3. God love his whole creation and longs for all to be saved. He loves his children for they have chosen to be saved from sin and live for him as their master. Romans 6 to the christians; you are servants of who you yield yourselves to whether Satan or God before or after you are saved.
He does show mercy to his children and rightly so and he shows mercy to the unsaved in having long suffering through opportunities of grace until he knows they have passed the point of no return or they die before their time.

4. Yes, he hates the wicked because they refuse to obey him and not because he predestinates them to go to jail, do not pass go and do not collect eternal life. This is because of the program of free wills who have a choice and chance to cooperate. God prepared hell for the devil and his angels specifically and not the human race. However, because of temptations by the evil father of lies those who decided to follow the devil and not be saved in their probationary period on earth will go to hell. The purpose is for the wicked to be punished eternally so earth will be free from the onslaught of sin and the devil and the great confrontation of God vs. Satan for ultimate ruler of the universe will be done once and for all. God is a God of order and he is a just God and in your context he cannot be just morally and spiritually just because he has the power to do it. He has to have a pure motive in judging the heart. I am sure you would say that sin is the motive and it is the result of sin that would make a pure motive. At the same time God has to have a pure motive and him predestinating them in your context would make him an ogre to humanity. If you take your logic then when your child sins against God or you in disobedience he may be disowned by you or sent to hell by God because he broke the commandment. Now you may not say that but that is where your train of thought leads to because you believe predestinates everything.

5. Daniel 9 has not happened in the proper context with the covenant of the new covenant with the nation of Israel. If you think it has your are living with rose colored glasses at reality. Other than that you would have to believe in the extremes of the spiritual Israel doctrine and the grafting in etc.
You would be better served to stop expounding on what you think the answer is until you can answer my question of God preordaining everything. Did he predestinate you to sin in your everyday christian life or not? If you have to wait for the Holy Spirit to come in then you cannot even be saved. This is your dilemma and you are wrong again. Jerry kelso

Somehow I'm the one creating my own interpretation when you're the one adding in years to a clear and simple 7 day creation account? I can't have this type of conversation with someone that believes these sort of things, its like trying to reason about anything with a baby. Only the Father can draw you and open your eyes. I have nothing further to say to you, as it is a waste of time to go deeper in conversation with you if you don't even understand very simple matters such as these.