Why did Jesus descend into hell?

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟188,109.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
It'd be helpful if instead of reading from the SDA playbook you actually engaged me in discussion.

Instead of assuming that I hold to a Platonic idea of the soul, you could instead engage discussion, in doing so you'd discover that I am of the opinion that the concept translated as "the soul" in Hebrew--nephesh--refers to the breath of life, the quintessential "thing" that differentiates a corpse from a living creature is the breath. That is what is understood in the Hebrew conception used in the Old Testament.

I don't believe human beings are enfleshed souls. I believe we are ensouled bodies. We are living creatures of flesh and bone and our ultimate hope in Christ is not to go to some place "up there" but to be raised, bodily, from the dead even as Christ was, and to live and dwell with Him forever right here, as we look forward to a new heavens and a new earth. That is what the Christian Church has always taught.

Scripture scarcely touches on what happens between death and resurrection, all that it states is that we shall be present with the Lord.

These are the sorts of things you could learn about what I believe if you were more interested in having a conversation rather than making assumptions.

-CryptoLutheran
I was showing the basis for my belief in soul sleep, in which we differ, by defining what a soul is. I thought it would be helpful in the discussion...

I am pleasantly surprised you believe as you do... I don't hear very often, of a Christian that does not believe we have an ethereal soul that never dies and is in Heaven waiting for the resurrection of their bodies to join them... sorry for my tainted filter on the comments that you made.

The doctrine of suspended animation is exegetical in supporting other verses dealing with death and being with the Lord. If we have no concept of time once our bodies die until we hear Jesus' shout to arise, then the statement of to be separated from the body is to be with the Lord, harmonizes with SA from the perspective of the one dead.
 
Upvote 0

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟188,109.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Scripture, specifically, doesn't go into detail beyond that He preached to those in prison. The Harrowing of Hell is established Christian teaching wherein Christ's descent into Hades was His being swallowed up into death as all men, but ultimately He breaks the bondage of death, by rising from the dead. Christ descended and took it captive, being the One who holds the keys to death and Hades (Revelation 1:18).

That's precisely what is shown in the traditional iconography of the Anastasis, and which I believed was sufficient here.

-CryptoLutheran
fair enough, I don't think some of us understood the picture and what it signified.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,466
26,895
Pacific Northwest
✟732,454.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Aren't you thinking of ruach?

Ruach carries similar connotations, though is more similar to the concept of wind as far as I'm aware. In Genesis it is the ruach of God that hovers over the primordial waters of creation. In Genesis 2:7 God blows/breathes (naphach) into Adam's nostrils the breath (neshamah) of life and Adam becomes a living, breathing thing (nephesh).

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

AnticipateHisComing

Newbie
Site Supporter
Dec 21, 2013
2,787
574
✟103,332.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What can I say? You've translated soul to mean flesh. No one else does that.
Lie. Peter did as stated in my post, but you fail to address those points in my post.
The NIV and every other translation that has decay does so also.

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.



soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
  1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man

  2. living being

  3. living being (with life in the blood)

  4. the man himself, self, person or individual

  5. seat of the appetites

  6. seat of emotions and passions

  7. activity of mind
    1. dubious
    • activity of the will
      1. dubious
    • activity of the character
      1. dubious
You believe an impossible paradox. Your words put a soul which you define to be a living breathing being descending into hell which has been defined to be a place of those not living and breathing.
If you've got nothing, better to admit it.
If you can't argue points made, ignore them and change the argument to something inane.
 
Upvote 0

AnticipateHisComing

Newbie
Site Supporter
Dec 21, 2013
2,787
574
✟103,332.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The separation from His Father, because of the sin He bore, is what caused Jesus' death. This was not reconciled until His resurrection and not fully until His ascension to bear first fruits to the Father.
So I'm guessing that you take the doctrine that Jesus had to suffer in hell also while he was dead. Regardless Jesus said it is finished at his death. There was no debt to Satan and no punishment or ransom that had to be paid to him for our salvation. Remember that when we sin, even with the help of Satan, our debt is still to God.
John 19:30 hen Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It isfinished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Let's tackle the first verse... In the original greek, there was no punctuation and was supplied by the translators, based on their knowledge and belief. Let's read the verse with different punctuation to see if it lines up better with another important clue.

Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.”

This annotation shows the scripture constructed differently and reads in a completely different light.
Well familiar with this most deceptive argument. God does not lie, including deceive. He may veil things though. Your placement of punctuation is not naturally intuitive. There is no need to reiterate that something is written on the day it is written. If I sent this text but was too lazy to put in punctuation, is there any doubt on the meaning.
"What do you say today let's do lunch?"
How stupid would the person that received such a text be to reply with:
"Sure, what day to you want to do lunch?"
But here's the corroborating piece of the puzzle to know which version is correct. After Jesus was risen from the tomb, He told Mary not to touch Him because He hadn't yet ascended to His Father... so he couldn't have said to the thief that Friday he would be with Him in paradise as
Jesus didn't go until three[ how about 40, AHC] days later. To believe the passage as translated is to state that Jesus lied to the thief. The true translation would then be the one that reconciles with His statement to Mary.
You point to a question of in-congruence of scripture but don't resolve all of them, you only use it to dismiss an obvious understanding of a text missing punctuation. Your argument of Mary not being able to touch Jesus on Easter morn because he has not ascended yet is not congruent with Jesus allowing Thomas to touch him before he ascended. I can't say why Jesus would not let Mary touch him that morning, but it is not explained well enough in scripture to refute clear words of Jesus on the cross saying today he would be in Paradise.

I think it would be good to separate the idea of going from earth to heaven from the glorious ascension that Jesus had 40 days after his resurrection. Scripture does tell of those going to heaven without it being described as a glorious ascension that Jesus had.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.
Now Elijah went up to heaven without dying, in a dramatic way, but it does not say he ascended in glory to sit at the right hand of God.
2 Kings 2:11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Now consider while on earth Jesus was transfigured and met with two old prophets, one was Moses who did die and the other was Elijah who was taken up to heaven without dying. Have you ever fathomed a thought as the to purpose of this meeting and why it was recorded in scripture. I think we should remember what Jesus said about the "dead".
Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”
I believe that this text teaches that while we have ended life on earth, we are still in service of God and his kingdom while our bodies are "dead/sleeping".

Scripture speaks of angels serving and praising God in heaven, but they also come to earth and minister or deliver a message to us. One must believe in spirits being able to go back and forth between heaven and earth. In fact this is Jacob's dream.
Gen 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold, there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven. And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it!

Now look to how scripture describes Jesus ascension to heaven of his resurrected body. It was a glorious event that King David and even Jesus foretold.
Acts 2:33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
“‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

John 1:50 Jesus said, “You believe[h] because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that.” 51 He then added, “Very truly I tell you, you will see ‘heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on’ the Son of Man.”

It is with this same glory that Jesus will return to earth.
Mat 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

This long winded discourse is just to say that the ascension of Jesus was a glorious public event done with his body. This does not refute the statement and possibility of Jesus' spirit going to the Father in Paradise on the day of his death as the two verses of scripture say: “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” and "today you will be with me in paradise."
 
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟66,235.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Lie. Peter did as stated in my post, but you fail to address those points in my post.
The NIV and every other translation that has decay does so also.

NIV. because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.

Me, as in soul.

You believe an impossible paradox. Your words put a soul which you define to be a living breathing being descending into hell which has been defined to be a place of those not living and breathing.

Where's your definition of hades (hell)?
 
Upvote 0

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟188,109.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
So I'm guessing that you take the doctrine that Jesus had to suffer in hell also while he was dead.

Nope... don't believe Jesus went anywhere but into the tomb.


You point to a question of in-congruence of scripture but don't resolve all of them, you only use it to dismiss an obvious understanding of a text missing punctuation. Your argument of Mary not being able to touch Jesus on Easter morn because he has not ascended yet is not congruent with Jesus allowing Thomas to touch him before he ascended. I can't say why Jesus would not let Mary touch him that morning, but it is not explained well enough in scripture to refute clear words of Jesus on the cross saying today he would be in Paradise.

Jesus, in order to fulfill the feast of first fruits would have had to ascend to His Father the day He was resurrected to present before Him the first fruits of the harvest.

This long winded discourse is just to say that the ascension of Jesus was a glorious public event done with his body. This does not refute the statement and possibility of Jesus' spirit going to the Father in Paradise on the day of his death as the two verses of scripture say: “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” and "today you will be with me in paradise."

There was another thread where we discussed the definition of a soul and what it meant for God's spirit (breath) to be given us. So, when Jesus committed His spirit back to His Father, He was breathing His last breath. Another clue as to what Jesus was doing in the tomb was the fact it was during the Sabbath... he was resting as His Father commanded Him.
 
Upvote 0

AnticipateHisComing

Newbie
Site Supporter
Dec 21, 2013
2,787
574
✟103,332.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
NIV. because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.

Me, as in soul.
If one does not understand that the part of me that decays at death is the body/flesh and not the soul,
if one does not understand how Peter quoted and explained Psalm 16 to be prophesy fulfilled of Jesus' body/flesh being resurrected from the grave,
then understanding is naught.

Acts 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption[decay].​

As the apostle Peter quotes David's psalm, learn the style of psalms to repeat the same message multiple ways. Acts2:31 says three different ways that Jesus' body was resurrected. Scripture testifies to this numerous times.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟66,235.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
If one does not understand that the part of me that decays at death is the body/flesh and not the soul,
if one does not understand how Peter quoted and explained Psalm 16 to be prophesy fulfilled of Jesus' body/flesh being resurrected from the grave,
then understanding is naught.

Acts 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption[decay].​

As the apostle Peter quotes David's psalm, learn the style of psalms to repeat the same message multiple ways. Acts2:31 says three different ways that Jesus' body was resurrected. Scripture testifies to this numerous times.
We've been over this. C/u around.
 
Upvote 0

AnticipateHisComing

Newbie
Site Supporter
Dec 21, 2013
2,787
574
✟103,332.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We've been over this.
Not really. You continue to ignore and not address what Peter said of the text; that David prophesied Jesus' body/flesh would not decay in the grave. This is another way of saying Jesus' body was resurrected. This is repeated numerous times in scripture.

If you want to ignore my argument, go ahead and do it. You just don't need to make a post that you are ignoring it. That much is obvious.
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,787
2,580
PA
✟275,202.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
From the Catechism of St Thomas Aquinas

REASONS FOR CHRIST'S DESCENT

There are four reasons why Christ together with His soul descended into hell. First, He wished to take upon Himself the entire punishment for our sin, and thus atone for its entire guilt. The punishment for the sin of man was not alone death of the body, but there was also a punishment of the soul, since the soul had its share in sin; and it was punished by being deprived of the beatific vision; and as yet no atonement had been offered whereby this punishment would be taken away. Therefore, before the coming of Christ all men, even the holy fathers after their death, descended into hell. Accordingly in order to take upon Himself most perfectly the punishment due to sinners, Christ not only suffered death, but also His soul descended into hell.[2] He, however, descended for a different cause than did the fathers; for they did so out of necessity and were of necessity taken there and detained, but Christ descended there of His own power and free will: "I am counted among them that go down to the pit; I am become as a man without help, free among the dead."[3] The others were there as captives, but Christ was freely there.

The second reason is that He might perfectly deliver all His friends. Christ had His friends both in the world and in hell. The former were His friends in that they possessed charity; and the latter were they who departed this life with charity and faith in the future Redeemer, such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and other just and good men. Therefore, since Christ had dwelt among His friends in this world and had delivered them by His death, so He wished to visit His friends who were detained in hell and deliver them also: "I will penetrate to all the lower parts of the earth, and will behold all that hope in the Lord."[4]

The third reason is that He would completely triumph over the devil. Now, a person is perfectly vanquished when he is not only overcome in conflict, but also when the assault is carried into his very home, and the seat of his kingdom is taken away from him. Thus Christ triumphed over the devil,[5] and on the Cross He completely vanquished him: "Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world (that is, the devil) be cast out."[6] To make this triumph complete, Christ wished to deprive the devil of the seat of his kingdom and to imprison him in his own house--which is hell. Christ, therefore, descended there, and despoiled the devil of everything and bound him, taking away his prey:[7] "And despoiling the principalities and powers, He hath exposed them confidently in open show, triumphing over them in Himself."[8] Likewise, Christ who had received the power and possession of heaven and earth, desired too the possession of hell, as says the Apostle: "That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth."[9] "In My name they shall cast out devils."[10]

The fourth and final reason is that Christ might free the just who were in hell [or Limbo]. For as Christ wished to suffer death to deliver the living from death, so also He would descend into hell to deliver those who were there: "Thou also by the blood of Thy testament, hast sent forth Thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water."[11] And again: "O death, I will be thy death; O hell, I will be thy bite."[12] Although Christ wholly overcame death, yet not so completely did He destroy hell, but, as it were, He bit it. He did not free all from hell, but those only who were without mortal sin. He likewise liberated those without original sin, from which they, as individuals, were freed by circumcision; or before [the institution of] circumcision, they who had been saved through their parents' faith (which refers to those who died before having the use of reason); or by the sacrifices, and by their faith in the future coming of Christ (which refers to adults)."[13] The reason they were there in hell [i.e., Limbo] is original sin which they had contracted from Adam, and from which as members of the human race they could not be delivered except by Christ. Therefore, Christ left there those who had descended there with mortal sin, and the non-circumcised children. Thus, it is seen that Christ descended into hell, and for what reasons. Now we may gather four considerations from this for our own instruction.
 
Upvote 0

Athanasius Jason

New Member
Aug 2, 2019
1
0
45
Boise
✟7,701.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I know I am three years late to this conversation. But, I came across it today, and couldn't help but wonder why all of you are making the matter so complicated.

It is very simple.

"What kind of man is there who will live and not see death? Will he deliver his soul from the hand of Hades?" (Ps. 88:49[89:48])

To deny that that Jesus descended into Hades is equivalent to affirming one or more of the following three things:

1) Jesus was not truly man.

2) Jesus did not have a human soul.

3) Jesus did not truly die.

As far as I can gather, all parties to the discussion regard all three of these statements as false. Why isn't that sufficient, in view of the explicit teaching of the Psalms that all men go to Hades (or Sheol, or Hell, or the Netherworld, or whatever word you prefer that in one way or another corresponds with the LXX 'Hades')? Why complicate matters by bringing things like 'soul sleep' or the meaning of the Hebrew words for soul and spirit into the discussion?

For, regardless of what one believes about what either the soul is, or what the condition of the soul is between death and resurrection, or what Hades/Sheol/Hell is, shouldn't it be clear that whatever the words 'soul' and 'Hades/Sheol/Hell' refer to into the biblical passages, we can at least all agree that since Jesus is truly human, and therefore has (or 'is', if you prefer) a human soul (regardless of what one understands as being meant by the word 'soul'), and that since Jesus truly died, that therefore He must have been in Hades/Sheol/Hell before His Resurrection?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums