Why did Jesus descend into hell?

[ViaCrucis]

Now that you have clarified where Jesus went at death, can you say what you believe he did there or for what purpose he descended into the dead?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Standing Up]

Can you argue what I wrote in the post and not what I did not write? Never said a word about David's soul. You will have to look to other texts to see what happens to ones soul at death. There are certainly enough scripture that speaks of spirits with and without bodies so I see no reason to doubt that my soul/spirit can continue/exist outside of this body.

Here's what you said:

"How can I be so certain the Psalm 16 is speaking of the physical body and not the spiritual soul? This is the whole point of my OP; for Christ's death, resurrection and ascension are discussed so much in scripture that we do not have to rely on one verse that is badly translated to formulate a doctrine."

You've decided that "soul" refers to "flesh" in Psalm 16:10. As such, you must think David's soul doesn't exist either. If not, why not? IOW, if Psalm 16:10 isn't a reference to what you seek, you've obviously something else in mind. What is it?

PS And yes, you reference King David.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Does your understanding of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus lead you to an understanding of what Jesus did at death and why he might have done it?

What did Jesus' friend Lazarus do... Jesus said he slept.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What did Jesus' friend Lazarus do... Jesus said he slept.

Sleep, of course, being a euphemism for dead. Lazarus wasn't literally asleep. And nobody reading the story should assume that was the case.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Sleep, of course, being a euphemism for dead. Lazarus wasn't literally asleep. And nobody reading the story should assume that was the case.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes a euphemism... what do sleeping people do? Have you ever went to sleep and then woken up and it felt like you just laid down? That is the analogy of soul sleep.

Btw, is the story of Lazarus the only place we find the analogy of death being like sleep?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes a euphemism... what do sleeping people do? Have you ever went to sleep and then woken up and it felt like you just laid down? That is the analogy of soul sleep.

Btw, is the story of Lazarus the only place we find the analogy of death being like sleep?

Nothing in the Scriptures about soul sleep.

No worry, I know you'll take this opportunity to quote pessimistic poetry in order to try and justify the teaching. And the quote from Ecclesiastes incoming in 3, 2, 1, ...

-CryptoLutheran

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Nothing in the Scriptures about soul sleep.

1 Cor 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Deuteronomy 31:16
And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers;

1 Samuel 3:3
And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of the Lord, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to sleep;

Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Psalm 13:3
Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Mark 5:39
And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Now you show me where in the Bible it says we go to heaven when we die...

 

[ViaCrucis]

1 Cor 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Deuteronomy 31:16
And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers;

1 Samuel 3:3
And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of the Lord, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to sleep;

Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Psalm 13:3
Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Mark 5:39
And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

And note that, again, nothing in the Scriptures about soul sleep.

I'm quite aware of the biblical use of sleep as a euphemism for death, I've already mentioned this. What the Scriptures don't say is that "the soul" is asleep.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Now you show me where in the Bible it says we go to heaven when we die...

The Bible doesn't say we go to heaven when we die and I never claimed it did.

-CryptoLuthearn

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Here's what you said:

"How can I be so certain the Psalm 16 is speaking of the physical body and not the spiritual soul? This is the whole point of my OP; for Christ's death, resurrection and ascension are discussed so much in scripture that we do not have to rely on one verse that is badly translated to formulate a doctrine."

You've decided that "soul" refers to "flesh" in Psalm 16:10. As such, you must think David's soul doesn't exist either. If not, why not? IOW, if Psalm 16:10 isn't a reference to what you seek, you've obviously something else in mind. What is it?

PS And yes, you reference King David.

My post 34 was quite explicit and lengthy. Instead of arguing the points I made in what I wrote, you wish to divert the argument to being over King David's soul and make preposterous statements about what I might think.

You appear to not accept what the apostle Peter said of Psalm 16 and how the NIV translate the text, but fail to formulate a counter-argument.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

The Bible doesn't say we go to heaven when we die and I never claimed it did.

-CryptoLuthearn

How about you SAY what you believe so we don't have to guess among the common views.

I asked you to say what you think Jesus did when he descended to the dead. You post a picture.

You say there is no soul sleep. You say you don't go to heaven at death. What other prevalent view is there? Are you a Lutheran that believes in the Catholic purgatory?

I don't agree with EastCoast on soul sleep, but at least he defended what he believes with scripture.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

And note that, again, nothing in the Scriptures about soul sleep.

I'm quite aware of the biblical use of sleep as a euphemism for death, I've already mentioned this. What the Scriptures don't say is that "the soul" is asleep.

-CryptoLutheran

What is the definition of the soul? We find it first in the creation of Adam...

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It doesn't say, as many think, that man was given a soul separate from himself but is a living soul. Soul means person/ life, as is apparent as we look at the other references to the word soul...

Genesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Genesis 46:18
These are the sons of Zilpah, whom Laban gave to Leah his daughter, and these she bare unto Jacob, even sixteen souls.

Proverbs 6:30
Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry;

Proverbs 19:16
He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; but he that despiseth his ways shall die.

Luke 12:19
And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

Acts 3:23
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

What did Jesus' friend Lazarus do... Jesus said he slept.

My problem with this is that Jesus existed as the Son of God before being made lower by taking on flesh in the man Jesus. His existence was an active spiritual one before a physical one. Big difference compared to Lazarus. Now when you say that Jesus went to sleep at his death, that implies maybe not an annihilation of Jesus' spirit but at least a cessation of its activity. Since I believe the Son of God to be eternal, I think this not possible for God.

Of course I don't see how your view is reconciled against what Jesus said on the cross.

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last. ​

 

[ViaCrucis]

What is the definition of the soul? We find it first in the creation of Adam...

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It doesn't say, as many think, that man was given a soul separate from himself but is a living soul. Soul means person/ life, as is apparent as we look at the other references to the word soul...

Genesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Genesis 46:18
These are the sons of Zilpah, whom Laban gave to Leah his daughter, and these she bare unto Jacob, even sixteen souls.

Proverbs 6:30
Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry;

Proverbs 19:16
He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; but he that despiseth his ways shall die.

Luke 12:19
And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

Acts 3:23
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

It'd be helpful if instead of reading from the SDA playbook you actually engaged me in discussion.

Instead of assuming that I hold to a Platonic idea of the soul, you could instead engage discussion, in doing so you'd discover that I am of the opinion that the concept translated as "the soul" in Hebrew--nephesh--refers to the breath of life, the quintessential "thing" that differentiates a corpse from a living creature is the breath. That is what is understood in the Hebrew conception used in the Old Testament.

I don't believe human beings are enfleshed souls. I believe we are ensouled bodies. We are living creatures of flesh and bone and our ultimate hope in Christ is not to go to some place "up there" but to be raised, bodily, from the dead even as Christ was, and to live and dwell with Him forever right here, as we look forward to a new heavens and a new earth. That is what the Christian Church has always taught.

Scripture scarcely touches on what happens between death and resurrection, all that it states is that we shall be present with the Lord.

These are the sorts of things you could learn about what I believe if you were more interested in having a conversation rather than making assumptions.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

How about you SAY what you believe so we don't have to guess among the common views.

I asked you to say what you think Jesus did when he descended to the dead. You post a picture.

You say there is no soul sleep. You say you don't go to heaven at death. What other prevalent view is there? Are you a Lutheran that believes in the Catholic purgatory?

I don't agree with EastCoast on soul sleep, but at least he defended what he believes with scripture.

Scripture, specifically, doesn't go into detail beyond that He preached to those in prison. The Harrowing of Hell is established Christian teaching wherein Christ's descent into Hades was His being swallowed up into death as all men, but ultimately He breaks the bondage of death, by rising from the dead. Christ descended and took it captive, being the One who holds the keys to death and Hades (Revelation 1:18).

That's precisely what is shown in the traditional iconography of the Anastasis, and which I believed was sufficient here.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Cappadocious]

Not really a defense of why you chose to quote a scripture irrelevant to the OP unless you are admitting to being one that "radically re-interpret prophecies to the point of apparent distortion".

You mean do I admit to being a Christian?

Most important point, note the difference between some things being hard to understand and your implication that nothing in scripture has a simple clarity.

Nothing has a simple clarity. The idea of simple clarity is very young, and we tend to read it back in time. It's about 400 years old and even the reformers didn't believe in it. Besides, all I have to do to deny the perspicuity of the Scriptures is to show that some of the Scriptures are not perspicuous, which I've done.

If you don't think that there is a preponderance of scripture that clearly teaches of the Son of God's suffering on a cross for our sins, dying, resurrection and ascension to heaven

I have made no such claim.

=Understand that Paul was not a disciple of Jesus but still an apostle. He did not receive the so important you claim exegesis from Jesus that the other 12 did.
Paul gives credit to the message he preached as wisdom given to him.

Jesus gave it, either way, by the Holy Spirit.

Point 5, the pharisees did understand scripture and prophecies.

Not all of them, nor how they would be fulfilled.

Jesus said the reason why the Pharisees did not believe his message is not because of their lack of knowledge of scripture but their hard hearts.

False, also because their eyes were blind.

​

Point 6, scripture speaks of the gospel being plain and not of earthly wisdom.

Plain does not mean perspicuous.

Point 8, while being taught by the greatest teacher, the apostles failed so much in understanding what he told them. They did not complete their understanding of God's word until Jesus ascended into heaven and sent them the Holy Spirit to guide them. So it is just not a matter of how good the teacher is, even Jesus uses the Holy Spirit to help understanding of his words.

You aren't helping your case.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It'd be helpful if instead of reading from the SDA playbook you actually engaged me in discussion.

Instead of assuming that I hold to a Platonic idea of the soul, you could instead engage discussion, in doing so you'd discover that I am of the opinion that the concept translated as "the soul" in Hebrew--nephesh--refers to the breath of life, the quintessential "thing" that differentiates a corpse from a living creature is the breath. That is what is understood in the Hebrew conception used in the Old Testament.

I don't believe human beings are enfleshed souls. I believe we are ensouled bodies. We are living creatures of flesh and bone and our ultimate hope in Christ is not to go to some place "up there" but to be raised, bodily, from the dead even as Christ was, and to live and dwell with Him forever right here, as we look forward to a new heavens and a new earth. That is what the Christian Church has always taught.


-CryptoLutheran

Interesting.
Isn't that essentially what happens in Ezekiel's "Valley of the Bones" and the 2 Witnesses in Revelation

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/lazarus-and-2-witnesses-of-reve-11-similarity.7461118/
Lazarus and 2 witnesses of Reve 11 similarity

Ezekiel 37:10
And I prophecy as He instructed and the spirit/breath is coming in them and they are living and are standing on their feet,
an army/host, great, exceedingly-exceedingly.
[Luke 2:34/Reve 11:11]

Reve 11:11
And after the three days and half-equal, a spirit/breath of Life out of GOD entered into them, and they stand on their feet,
and great fear falls on the ones beholding them.
[Ezekiel 37:10/Luke 2:34]

i also find it rather fascinating the Lazarus was dead for about 3 and half days, much like the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11. Thoughts?

John 11:39
Jesus is saying "take away ye!" the stone. Is saying to Him Martha the siste of the one having deceased "Lord, already he stinking, for it is fourth-day
43 And these saying, to a Voice great He cries-out "Lazarus, hither out!"



.

 

[Standing Up]

My post 34 was quite explicit and lengthy. Instead of arguing the points I made in what I wrote, you wish to divert the argument to being over King David's soul and make preposterous statements about what I might think.

You appear to not accept what the apostle Peter said of Psalm 16 and how the NIV translate the text, but fail to formulate a counter-argument.

What can I say? You've translated soul to mean flesh. No one else does that. So I asked where does that leave King David? You've no reply except to breathlessly tell us your post was explicit and lengthy.

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.



soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion

1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
   
   
2. living being
   
   
3. living being (with life in the blood)
   
   
4. the man himself, self, person or individual
   
   
5. seat of the appetites
   
   
6. seat of emotions and passions
   
   
7. activity of mind
   1. dubious
      
   • activity of the will
     1. dubious
        
   • activity of the character
     1. dubious
        

If you've got nothing, better to admit it.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Now when you say that Jesus went to sleep at his death, that implies maybe not an annihilation of Jesus' spirit but at least a cessation of its activity. Since I believe the Son of God to be eternal, I think this not possible for God.

The separation from His Father, because of the sin He bore, is what caused Jesus' death. This was not reconciled until His resurrection and not fully until His ascension to bear first fruits to the Father.

Of course I don't see how your view is reconciled against what Jesus said on the cross.

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last. ​

Let's tackle the first verse... In the original greek, there was no punctuation and was supplied by the translators, based on their knowledge and belief. Let's read the verse with different punctuation to see if it lines up better with another important clue.

Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.”

This annotation shows the scripture constructed differently and reads in a completely different light. But here's the corroborating piece of the puzzle to know which version is correct. After Jesus was risen from the tomb, He told Mary not to touch Him because He hadn't yet ascended to His Father... so he couldn't have said to the thief that Friday he would be with Him in paradise as Jesus didn't go until three days later. To believe the passage as translated is to state that Jesus lied to the thief. The true translation would then be the one that reconciles with His statement to Mary.