Why are Christians so incredibly deceived about scripture?

[Wolf_Says]

He is not saying that faith is insufficient, and he's not saying that works save. He's saying that those who claim to be bigtime believers and followers of Christ but who continue to live like heathens (of whom there must have been plenty in his day) show by their lack of Christian behavior (acts) that they are "all talk." Faith, as we know, produces good works, even though they are not what saves us, so if you don't show any such, it's a good bet that you don't have the faith either.



Nonsense. It is common knowledge that in some countries, baptised Catholics (because that is the religion of the country) also practice Voodoo or Santoria or some other non-western religion. That in no way says that Catholics generally are into New Age religion or demonic practices.

You need to get over thinking that any comment about world affairs that doesn't reflect wonderfully on your own denomination is somehow an accusation that every member of it is Satan's seed.

I am sorry for misunderstanding you topic about Catholics in that regard.

So then you are saying you do not believe in Sola Fide? Because that is what you said you could defend and so far you have not. We are saved by Grace, and Grace = Faith + Works. Not Faith alone, and not works alone as you stated.

That is what I have been arguing, that Sola Fide is unbiblical. As James tells us, I did not say that we are not justified by faith, I said we are not justified by faith alone. Different statements.

 

[Albion]

If you cannot quote Bible verses that defend Sola Fide, which you said you can, then that is fine.

Of course I can, but I'm not going to partake in debate on a side issue and with a single poster, and especially not on a subject that the rest of us have discussed to death here. This is supposed to be a discussion, not a series of demands we throw at each other. If you want to research this subject for yourself (which I recommend), you can easily find all the verses online and in little more than a flash.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Of course I can, but I'm not going to partake in debate on a side issue and with a single poster, and especially not on a subject that the rest of us have discussed to death here. This is supposed to be a discussion, not a series of demands we throw at each other. If you want to research this subject for yourself (which I recommend), you can easily find all the verses online and in little more than a flash.

I am asking because I have looked for verses that defend Sola Fide, and there is none. I tend to do my research before I start making baseless claims. The only one is the that Martin Luther added the word "alone" too.

Sola Fide is not biblical in any manner.

 

[Albion]

I am asking because I have looked for verses that defend Sola Fide, and there is none. I tend to do my research before I start making baseless claims. The only one is the that Martin Luther added the word "alone" too.

I know from the particular claims you've been taught to use on Protestants that simply quoting verses that teach salvation by Faith and nothing other than Faith will bring the predictable reply--"Well it doesn't say 'Alone,' so that means there must be more." So, I'd like to ask you this: How do you know what the "else," "other," or "more" might be?

It's not Holy Tradition, although that's what your church has replaced Scripture with, because that's not even mentioned in Scripture. So could it be the reading of tea leaves, or the opinion of some church leader, or astrology, or maybe another book like the Book of Mormon? What?

And please do not consider these to be insulting suggestions, because the point is to ask if they are not just as eligible--or almost anything we can think of, for that matter--if Faith is deemed to be only part of the answer and the Bible doesn't provide any alternative.

I do not want to make this a prolonged debate, however, as I said before that I didn't think would be appropriate.

 

[drjean]

The church never had justification by faith until Martin Luther and the reformation.

I have to return to your opening (false) premise.

The first "church" was composed of the Jewish peoples...and while most did still worship God & Messiah in the synagogues, they certainly knew of being justified by faith.

Are you talking about Catholic history only, perhaps? I was not aware that they never held to justification by faith, as even the Douay Bible has key verses of Paul's gospel which presents it. Surely the Baptists, anabaptists and previous believers held to justification by faith!

 

[Wolf_Says]

I know from the particular claims you've been taught to use on Protestants that simply quoting verses that teach salvation by Faith and nothing other than Faith will bring the predictable reply--"Well it doesn't say 'Alone,' so that means there must be more." So, I'd like to ask you this: How do you know what the "else," "other," or "more" might be?

It's not Holy Tradition, although that's what your church has replaces Scripture with, because that's not even mentioned in Scripture. So could it be the reading of tea leaves, or the opinion of some church leader, or astrology, or maybe another book like the Book of Mormon? What?

And please do not consider these to be ridiculous suggestions, because the point is to ask if they are not just as eligible--or almost anything we can think of, for that matter--if Faith is deemed to be only part of the answer and the Bible doesn't provide any alternative.

I do not want to make this a prolonged debate, however, as I said before that I didn't think would be appropriate.

I know what else there needs to be because it says so in the Bible.

In regards to faith, we need works otherwise our faith is dead, as the body without spirit is dead so too is faith without works dead.

Please name 1 time the Church has replaced scripture with tradition.

You were the one who stated that Martin Luther was correct in regards to faith, I am simply asking you to provide proof.

 

[Albion]

I know what else there needs to be because it says so in the Bible.

Where?

In regards to faith, we need works otherwise our faith is dead, as the body without spirit is dead so too is faith without works dead.

I've already addressed that. Of course an invalid faith won't save, but that doesn't mean that a genuine one won't.

You were the one who stated that Martin Luther was correct in regards to faith, I am simply asking you to provide proof.

Very well. I didn't want to do this, but I have to leave now, so I'll leave you with the following:

1. John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
2. Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
3. Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
4. Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
5. Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
6. Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
7. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
8. Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
9. Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
10. Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
11. Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
12. Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
13. Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
14. Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
15. Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
16. Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
17. Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
18. Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
19. Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
20. Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
21. Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
22. Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
23. Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
24. Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
25. Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
26. Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
27. 1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

 

[drjean]

"works" as in living your faith, not to be saved, right? (For what works did the repentant thief on the cross perform?)

 

[Wolf_Says]

Where?

I've already addressed that. Of course an invalid faith won't save, but that doesn't mean that a genuine one won't.

And I completely agree with every single one of those verses you posted.

But as I stated, those verses do not say that we are justified by faith alone. And we know this BECAUSE of the book of James.

James is clearly warning us that we cannot simply believe and have faith. We must believe, have faith, and perform good works. Because at the end of days, Jesus will judge us by our works as stated in Revelations.

Like I have been saying, I completely believe in justification by faith, but not justification by faith ALONE. As I said the word ALONE completely changes the meaning of the phrase.

By justification by faith ALONE, one can be lead to believe that they do not need to do anything, just believe with their heart that Jesus is Lord. The issue with that is that even the devil believes that Jesus is Lord and yet he is the devil and remains in hell.

If you believe that so long as you have faith, you can go and kill people and be fine, then you believe in faith alone. Because when we die, one could simply say "I have always had faith in you Jesus, so by my faith I am justified." when they are judged. But we all know that you cannot go and kill people and be okay. We need works as well, good works, works of God, along with that Faith.

I will repeat, I completely agree with every verse you quoted. However those verses do not state sola fide. Whether you care to listen or not, those 2 statements are completely different in their meaning and understanding.

 

[Albion]

And I completely agree with every single one of those verses you posted.

But as I stated, those verses do not say that we are justified by faith alone. And we know this BECAUSE of the book of James.

In short, you've just verified what I knew would happen and one of the reasons I didn't want to be goaded into an exchange of verses.

No matter what is presented, you will simply come back to a misunderstanding of James and act as though a mountain of verses that identify Faith as the vehicle for our salvation to the exclusion of anything else mean nothing.

 

[samir]

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

The problem with relying on pet verses quoted out of context is that it leads to interpretations that contradict the rest of scripture. If Rom 4:5 is teaching faith alone, then Psalm 106:30-31 is teaching works alone.

"But Phinehas stood up and intervened, and the plague was checked. This was credited to him as righteousness for endless generations to come. (Psalm 106:30-31, NIV)"

If you look at the whole of scripture, you'll see that faith and works are necessary to be justified before God.

 

[Albion]

If you look at the whole of scripture, you'll see that faith and works are necessary to be justified before God.

As I said, the faith+works people have a shaky case based mainly on a misreading of James. On the other side of the ledger, I just gave you 27 verses that support the Sola Fide position and you simply found one that didn't persuade you and dismissed them all. If you look at "the whole of scripture" you'll see that Works do not earn salvation.

And then you also talk about "pet verses!" Twenty seven (and I could give even more) does not amount to "pet verses!"

 

[samir]

As I said, the faith+works people have a shaky case based mainly on a misreading of James.

I don't need James as the rest of the bible is just as clear that works are necessary for salvation.

On the other side of the ledger, I just gave you 27 verses that support the Sola Fide position and you simply found one that didn't persuade you and dismissed them all.

I didn't see how any of them supported the sola fide tradition so I just quoted one to use as an example. I fully agree with all those verses that faith is necessary but I didn't see where any of them taught faith alone.

If you look at "the whole of scripture" you'll see that Works do not earn salvation.

Faith does not earn salvation either because salvation is by grace. That doesn't change the fact that works, just like faith, is necessary for salvation.

And then you also talk about "pet verses!" Twenty seven (and I could give even more) does not amount to "pet verses!"

They are pet verses because you are elevating one set of verses to support your tradition above the rest of scripture. I could just as easily quote 27 verses to support salvation by works alone. Heresies can be avoided by looking at scripture in its entirety and making sure your interpretation doesn't contradict the rest of scripture.

 

[Albion]

I don't need James as the rest of the bible is just as clear that works are necessary for salvation.

Then start quoting verses, not including James.

 

[Razare]

As I said, the faith+works people have a shaky case based mainly on a misreading of James.

It is faith + works. But what the faith + works people wont tell you, real salvation faith produces works 100% of the time.

The only failure I know about from the word is an immediate persecution where the person fails to fully receive the gospel because of an immediate persecution against it in their lives. Based on the seed parable Matthew 13. But if they arrive past that persecution, confessing Christ before men, they're saved.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

How do you know that it's straight from the Apostles?

Just have to trust what the Church says, eh?

Fathers of the Church, Clement Pope (90), Ignatius of Antioch (110), Ireneaus of Lyon (140), all of them knew the apostles in person. Particularly Peter and Paul and John.

And Of Course, The Sacred Scripture was defined and compiled and cleaned from other books by the Fathers of the Church. It means that the Apostles and the Evangelists wrote the Books of the New testament and gave those books to their succesors and their succesors preserved them and defended them from Other Fake pretended inspired texts.

The Church is the Column and Foundation of Truth. And we know the Bible is Truth because the Church says so.

¿What Church?

Easy, ¿Where are Peter and Paul?

 

[nanookadenord]

For Catholics, I would just suggest finding Charismatic Catholics and hanging out with them and get your eyes opened a little.

No thanks from this Catholic. I have been in a Charismatic and Pentecostal church before. Never will step back in one again, even if it's branded Catholic.

 

[ebedmelech]

It's what the Church founded by Jesus has taught since the first century.

Not even! The church is founded on Jesus Christ himself. He is the STONE the builders rejected...He is CORNERSTONE. One has to believe BEFORE they are baptized. No apostle baptized anyone until they believed FIRST!

Read more carefully. Salvation is by grace (Eph 2:8-9). Acts 2:38 is clear that baptism is how one receives that grace that remits sins. The Church has always understood (the church fathers were unanimous) John 3:5 as referring to baptism.

No one is doubting salvation is by grace...but Ephesians 2:8-9 says NOTHING about baptism (that in itself ought to give you a clue). Furthermore Acts 2:38 is again making the very point Peter says "repent and be baptized...", notice repentance is first...then baptism.

Look at Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch...Phillip would NOT baptize him until he expressed his faith out of his mouth...then what did the eunuch say?..."I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God". Only after he said that was he baptized!

Baptism is how one becomes a Christian.

Find that in scripture....you can't! One becomes a Christian by faith IN CHRIST ALONE...one becomes baptized because they have become a Christian...it is a public expression in which they identify with the death burial and resurrection of Christ. It also represents dying to your old live and being raised to new life in Christ. Note Romans 10:9, 10:
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Notice that nothing is said about baptism resulting in salvation...it's all about faith in Christ!

That's part of it but not the whole story. Look at the rest of scripture.

No...that is the story. You picked out Acts 2:38, 39...however as you read the book of Acts mark out what the apostles did...they NEVER baptized anyone until they confessed their faith in Jesus!

 

[ebedmelech]

And I completely agree with every single one of those verses you posted.

But as I stated, those verses do not say that we are justified by faith alone. And we know this BECAUSE of the book of James.

James is clearly warning us that we cannot simply believe and have faith. We must believe, have faith, and perform good works. Because at the end of days, Jesus will judge us by our works as stated in Revelations.

Like I have been saying, I completely believe in justification by faith, but not justification by faith ALONE. As I said the word ALONE completely changes the meaning of the phrase.

By justification by faith ALONE, one can be lead to believe that they do not need to do anything, just believe with their heart that Jesus is Lord. The issue with that is that even the devil believes that Jesus is Lord and yet he is the devil and remains in hell.

If you believe that so long as you have faith, you can go and kill people and be fine, then you believe in faith alone. Because when we die, one could simply say "I have always had faith in you Jesus, so by my faith I am justified." when they are judged. But we all know that you cannot go and kill people and be okay. We need works as well, good works, works of God, along with that Faith.

I will repeat, I completely agree with every verse you quoted. However those verses do not state sola fide. Whether you care to listen or not, those 2 statements are completely different in their meaning and understanding.

Here's the problem with what you're saying. Paul and James are not on the same point.

Paul's argument is justification by faith, which is when God declares a person righteous on the basis of Christ sacrifice on the cross. That person is declared righteous on the basis that God applies the life of Christ who committed no sin to that person. This is the point of salvation and it does not require works but only faith!

James' argument deals with a person that says they have faith but has NO WORKS that demonstrate that faith. James argument is that the result of a person saying they have faith in Christ is DEMONSTRATED by their works. Therefore James is arguing that works shows that one has faith. James argument is not that works save...but that works show one is saved. This is why James says at James 2:18:
18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

The point of James statement is faith is not tangible...so one cannot show they have faith except what they do shows they have faith.

Jesus clearly supports both James and Paul because Jesus clearly says if we believe on Him we will be saved...BUT He also says if we love Him we will keep His commandments.

Paul's point...at salvation God declares a person just on the merits of Christ.

James point...if you say you have faith...works should accompany that faith.

 

[Hank77]

By census, or simply asking what religion a person is.

Well, I haven't had anyone ask me in probably 45 yrs.

These are all guesses, of course. Each church reports its own data and they count members in different ways. Some baptize infants and count them as members. Others only count adult members who are active in a local congregation. Some count all members of their ethnic group, regardless of whether or not they have any known connection to the church.

Probably a third of the Catholic "members" for example, are people who don't attend church, are devotees of some additional religion like Voodoo or else have converted to some other Christian denomination but are still counted as Catholic by the church.

That is what I'm thinking too. And some churches just don't do memberships at all.