Why are Christians so incredibly deceived about scripture?

[samir]

Not even! The church is founded on Jesus Christ himself. He is the STONE the builders rejected...He is CORNERSTONE. One has to believe BEFORE they are baptized.

I've read the church fathers. None of them said one has to believe before they are baptized. That's a 16th century heresy/Protestant tradition not taught in scripture.

No apostle baptized anyone until they believed FIRST!

How would you know? Scripture says whole households were baptized. It doesn't mention an exception those who were too young to believe. Making an exception for those who can't believe is going beyond what is written.

No one is doubting salvation is by grace...but Ephesians 2:8-9 says NOTHING about baptism (that in itself ought to give you a clue). Furthermore Acts 2:38 is again making the very point Peter says "repent and be baptized...", notice repentance is first...then baptism.

The people Peter preached to had to repent because they were sinners. Infants, since they have not sinned, do not need to repent. Eph 2:8-9 absolutely teaches baptism because it says salvation is by grace and Acts 2:38 says baptism remits sins.

Look at Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch...Phillip would NOT baptize him until he expressed his faith out of his mouth...then what did the eunuch say?..."I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God". Only after he said that was he baptized!

That's because they were adults! Young children, being unable to believe, to not have an impediment that prevents them from receiving grace in baptism.

Find that in scripture....you can't!

I already showed you. Acts 2:38 says baptism remits sins. Since sins are only remitted by God's grace, it's clear baptism confers grace which makes one a Christian. Also, John 3:5 says those who are born again/baptized are regenerated which makes them a Christian.

One becomes a Christian by faith IN CHRIST ALONE

Find that in scripture....you can't!

one becomes baptized because they have become a Christian

If a person isn't baptized, he is not a Christian. Baptism is what makes a person a Christian.

it is a public expression in which they identify with the death burial and resurrection of Christ. It also represents dying to your old live and being raised to new life in Christ. Note Romans 10:9, 10:
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Notice that nothing is said about baptism resulting in salvation...it's all about faith in Christ!

Just because Rom 10 doesn't mention baptism does not mean you can ignore the rest of scripture where it says baptism is necessary for salvation. That would be like quoting the parable of the sheep and the goats and saying faith isn't necessary because only works were mentioned. I suggest you learn how to properly interpret scripture.

No...that is the story. You picked out Acts 2:38, 39...however as you read the book of Acts mark out what the apostles did...they NEVER baptized anyone until they confessed their faith in Jesus!

You need to read more carefully. I read Acts and saw whole households were baptized which almost certainly included children too young to believe.

 

[4x4toy]

And I completely agree with every single one of those verses you posted.

But as I stated, those verses do not say that we are justified by faith alone. And we know this BECAUSE of the book of James.

James is clearly warning us that we cannot simply believe and have faith. We must believe, have faith, and perform good works. Because at the end of days, Jesus will judge us by our works as stated in Revelations.

Like I have been saying, I completely believe in justification by faith, but not justification by faith ALONE. As I said the word ALONE completely changes the meaning of the phrase.

By justification by faith ALONE, one can be lead to believe that they do not need to do anything, just believe with their heart that Jesus is Lord. The issue with that is that even the devil believes that Jesus is Lord and yet he is the devil and remains in hell.

If you believe that so long as you have faith, you can go and kill people and be fine, then you believe in faith alone. Because when we die, one could simply say "I have always had faith in you Jesus, so by my faith I am justified." when they are judged. But we all know that you cannot go and kill people and be okay. We need works as well, good works, works of God, along with that Faith.

I will repeat, I completely agree with every verse you quoted. However those verses do not state sola fide. Whether you care to listen or not, those 2 statements are completely different in their meaning and understanding.

What top 5 works does the Catholic church require ?

 

[samir]

What top 5 works does the Catholic church require ?

The Catholic church says faith, hope, and charity are necessary. The greatest of those is charity. The Catholic church does not require any other works.

 

[drjean]

Paul baptized no one.
If it were so required, why wouldn't he have made a big issue to do so?
If it were so required, why wouldn't God have included it every time He tells us to be born again, believe? Why would God leave such an important aspect and requirement out of HIS directives? He wouldn't and didn't.

 

[amariselle]

Here's the problem with what you're saying. Paul and James are not on the same point.

Paul's argument is justification by faith, which is when God declares a person righteous on the basis of Christ sacrifice on the cross. That person is declared righteous on the basis that God applies the life of Christ who committed no sin to that person. This is the point of salvation and it does not require works but only faith!

James' argument deals with a person that says they have faith but has NO WORKS that demonstrate that faith. James argument is that the result of a person saying they have faith in Christ is DEMONSTRATED by their works. Therefore James is arguing that works shows that one has faith. James argument is not that works save...but that works show one is saved. This is why James says at James 2:18:
18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

The point of James statement is faith is not tangible...so one cannot show they have faith except what they do shows they have faith.

Jesus clearly supports both James and Paul because Jesus clearly says if we believe on Him we will be saved...BUT He also says if we love Him we will keep His commandments.

Paul's point...at salvation God declares a person just on the merits of Christ.

James point...if you say you have faith...works should accompany that faith.

Well said, thank you.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Paul baptized no one.
If it were so required, why wouldn't he have made a big issue to do so?
If it were so required, why wouldn't God have included it every time He tells us to be born again, believe? Why would God leave such an important aspect and requirement out of HIS directives? He wouldn't and didn't.

Baptism is required because Jesus tells us so in two different occasions. The first is in John 3:3-6 when He says we must be born by water and The Spirit. And Once again in Matthew 28:18-20 where He tells his disciples to go and baptize all nations.

This also explains why Jesus had John baptize Him, even though John was in no place to do so. In Matthew 3:13-17

 

[Monk Brendan]

Which of course it isn't. Don't give in to their foolishness.

This is far from foolishness. I have noticed that in some Christian blogs or fora, if one self-identifies as Catholic, first, they are automatically labeled as Roman Catholic; and second I have found that we have to be twice as Protestant to gaian half the attention and respect. So I quote the KJV, but I read the Orthodox Study Bible, or the NIV

 

[samir]

Paul baptized no one.
If it were so required, why wouldn't he have made a big issue to do so?

Because Paul was humble and didn't want to get credit for doing everything himself. Scripture says there are different gifts, roles, and abilities for each person.

If it were so required, why wouldn't God have included it every time He tells us to be born again, believe?

Because the several times it's mentioned is enough. It would get very repetitive and be pointless to mention baptism dozens of times. It was clear enough that everyone understood it. It wasn't until Zwingli's heresy in the 16th century that people started rejecting the scriptural teaching on baptism.

Do you ignore what Acts 2:38 says about repentance and believe it is unnecessary because it isn't mentioned in every single passage that mentions belief?

Why would God leave such an important aspect and requirement out of HIS directives?

He wouldn't and didn't. That's why Jesus included it as part of the Great Commission at the end of Matthew's epistle. Scripture is clear that baptism is necessary for salvation.

 

[Albion]

He wouldn't and didn't. That's why Jesus included it as part of the Great Commission at the end of Matthew's epistle. Scripture is clear that baptism is necessary for salvation.

But as has been pointed out several times elsewhere, your own church doesn't say that.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Because Paul was humble and didn't want to get credit for doing everything himself. Scripture says there are different gifts, roles, and abilities for each person.



Because the several times it's mentioned is enough. It would get very repetitive and be pointless to mention baptism dozens of times. It was clear enough that everyone understood it. It wasn't until Zwingli's heresy in the 16th century that people started rejecting the scriptural teaching on baptism.

Do you ignore what Acts 2:38 says about repentance and believe it is unnecessary because it isn't mentioned in every single passage that mentions belief?



He wouldn't and didn't. That's why Jesus included it as part of the Great Commission at the end of Matthew's epistle. Scripture is clear that baptism is necessary for salvation.

Baptism implies death and all christians must be baptised into His death to receive new life. How symbolic that is to each denomination varies.

 

[Razare]

Paul baptized no one.
If it were so required, why wouldn't he have made a big issue to do so?

Just to answer your question on this matter, for clarity's sake, not really to debate...

The reason Paul was not going around baptizing is because he did not want people to say, "I was baptized into Paul". Paul actually did baptize people, but he did not make a habit of being the one to baptize whole new congregations he planted, otherwise they would start making doctrines out of "baptism into Paul" rather than a baptism into Christ as Acts 2:38 teaches.

I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, - 1 Corinthians 1:14

Romans 6 shows us that Paul did teach and have everyone be water baptized when he spread the gospel to a region. Everyone was water baptized, but it was not necessary that Paul baptize them, and him doing it could cause issues since he became well known.

If it were so required, why wouldn't God have included it every time He tells us to be born again, believe? Why would God leave such an important aspect and requirement out of HIS directives? He wouldn't and didn't.

What I have learned is there is a huge difference between going to heaven vs. becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ.

You see, many Jews who were never born again, you will see in heaven. They will make it into the everlasting eternity with God, described in the end of Revelation which is heaven.

They didn't have to be born again to arrive there.

What the gospel is, is something above and beyond what the Jews had. So when it says you must be water baptized in Mark 16:16 ; Acts 2:38 and Romans 6:4 ... it's not really talking about making it into the pearly gates of eternal union with God.

Belief in the lamb is sufficient to make it into the pearly gates, John 3:18.

But you see, what disciples of Christ are supposed to do in this life is not really about "just barely making it to heaven." Water baptism is a requirement of being a disciple of Jesus Christ if you pay attention to scripture.

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

There is a lot of fear about teaching water baptism because people don't understand what is going on at a water baptism. If all of the New Testament is just boiled down into, "going to heaven when you die" then people simply will be unable to understand because that's not what the NT really talks about. "Going to heaven when you die" is almost taken for granted in most of the material of the NT because the writers were of the mindset, "of course you are going to heaven if you believe!" But they also said you are not saved if you did not get baptized... Mark 16:16 ... but the word "saved" in how it is used in the NT, is not talking about going to heaven when you die strictly. Salvation includes this life, not going to heaven only.

 

[samir]

But as has been pointed out several times elsewhere, your own church doesn't say that.

What church? I'm non-denominational. I believe baptism is necessary for salvation because that's what scripture clearly teaches.

 

[samir]

Baptism implies death and all christians must be baptised into His death to receive new life. How symbolic that is to each denomination varies.

Scripture says baptism remits sin. No remission of sins = no salvation. It doesn't matter if modern day denominations twist scripture to their own destruction by saying baptism is just a symbol.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Scripture says baptism remits sin. No remission of sins = no salvation. It doesn't matter if modern day denominations twist scripture to their own destruction by saying baptism is just a symbol.

It is not the act of baptism that saves it's uniquely the act of God that results in rebirth.
1 Peter 1:17-19
And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

That's not to say that baptism isn't as important to God as marraige is. But looking at the first example of marraige is to look at Rebecca and Isaac. That doesn't fit the bill, and the example of a concubine leaves one outside of the promise. But nevertheless saying that the act of baptism is what saves is the same as saying a peice of paper makes a marraige. Just not so.

 

[samir]

It is not the act of baptism that saves it's uniquely the act of God that results in rebirth.
1 Peter 1:17-19
And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

I agree with 1 Peter that the grace of justification was merited through a unique act of God by the blood of Christ. Acts 2:38 says that grace that Christ merited is received through baptism.

 

[ebedmelech]

I've read the church fathers. None of them said one has to believe before they are baptized. That's a 16th century heresy/Protestant tradition not taught in scripture.



How would you know? Scripture says whole households were baptized. It doesn't mention an exception those who were too young to believe. Making an exception for those who can't believe is going beyond what is written.





The people Peter preached to had to repent because they were sinners. Infants, since they have not sinned, do not need to repent. Eph 2:8-9 absolutely teaches baptism because it says salvation is by grace and Acts 2:38 says baptism remits sins.



That's because they were adults! Young children, being unable to believe, to not have an impediment that prevents them from receiving grace in baptism.




I already showed you. Acts 2:38 says baptism remits sins. Since sins are only remitted by God's grace, it's clear baptism confers grace which makes one a Christian. Also, John 3:5 says those who are born again/baptized are regenerated which makes them a Christian.




Find that in scripture....you can't!



If a person isn't baptized, he is not a Christian. Baptism is what makes a person a Christian.




Just because Rom 10 doesn't mention baptism does not mean you can ignore the rest of scripture where it says baptism is necessary for salvation. That would be like quoting the parable of the sheep and the goats and saying faith isn't necessary because only works were mentioned. I suggest you learn how to properly interpret scripture.



You need to read more carefully. I read Acts and saw whole households were baptized which almost certainly included children too young to believe.

Samir I think this is the point at which I leave you in peace.

 

[drjean]

The Jewish people of old made atonement for sin looking forward to the cross and the promise of God to send the final sacrifice for their sin, and will be in heaven eventually. Those who believed prior to Jesus' resurrection are under another set of requirements. Once Paul was appointed and trained by Christ (3 years in the desert) he was given the New Gospel for the rest of us..the gospel of grace.

IF we add ANYthing ANY thing to this gospel of grace, then there was no reason for Jesus to die. IF there were something, ANYthing WE could do for our salvation, then Jesus did not have to atone for us. The power comes in the resurrection. All we have to do is believe. This is the same message that Jesus preached, but now, under Paul with Paul's gospel, it is grace.

Do not confuse true grace received upon repenting,accepting, believing with a license to sin (as some in error do). The person who truly believes WILL follow Christ because the Holy Spirit indwells and we are clothed with Christ's righteousness. We have no more sin. There is nothing we can do for our salvation. Otherwise, as Paul wrote, then Christ's death and resurrection was in vain.

We are no longer judged for sin...but we will be judged for our actions after we believe...and whether those actions are for God or ourselves... wood hay stubble that burns or gold and silver that are purified.

Baptism was for those Jews to "prove" they were true believers and not otherwise there to cause problems---such as turn them into those who took PAUL'S place in dragging them into courts and putting them to death. Those who were faking belief dare not put such judgment upon themselves...what? Die for a lie? They would not. True believers would, did and will. Baptism is a way to say to that congregation, I agree with you in following Jesus....now for all of us who do.

To add anything to Christ's work on the cross is apostasy, and man's religion, not God's plan.

 

[JCFantasy23]

if you do not understand the gospel, you are not a christian.
if you cant even get your questions straight, how much your conclusions.

This is kind of a scary thought. Faith in God is not dependent on our ability to understand all the intricacies of scripture.

 

[ebedmelech]

This is kind of a scary thought. Faith in God is not dependent on our ability to understand all the intricacies of scripture.

I think it is...when it comes to the gospel. In fact I know it is!!! God's promise is that when we seek Him with all of our heart we will find Him. What you call "the intricacies of scripture" come after that. The Holy Spirit is our teacher, who will lead us to all truth. The problem comes when many saints don't labor in the word as they should...so all they get...is what they get on Sunday or whenever their church assembles.

*Cornelius didn't understand the gospel and God sent Peter to preach it to him.

*The Ethiopian eunuch didn't understand and God sent Phillip to him.

It's the Holy Spirit that opens one's eyes to understand...and as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:8:
8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

I don't know how you came to Christ...but I know God simply used a young man to ask me "are you saved?"...from there I began to look into what it means to be saved. God provided more light through other people and I was born again.