Why are Christians so incredibly deceived about scripture?

[Razare]

The church never had justification by faith until Martin Luther and the reformation. And once it was believed, then everyone slowly drifted in that direction of interpretation of scripture.

This has continued in the church. Reformation -> Baptist & Methodist -> Adventist -> Finney-Moody -> Pentecost -> Apostolic

Now what has happened to me is I currently attending a modern Full-Gospel church, but also participating in an apostolic evangelist group. And even among Bible teachers I listen to, I hear differences. Now, most differences, who cares?

But some of the differences I have encountered concern salvation itself and the Gospel.

Paul says:

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse! - Galatians 1:8

But this is clearly happening... even happening among groups that are very similar. My church doesn't preach water baptism does anything, it is symbolic they say, and you just do it because you were told to. The apostolic group says it is required for salvation, as if you wont enter heaven without it.

And in my own research, I am trying to figure out who is right and who is wrong since I will be under a curse should I not get my interpretation correct.

My conclusion was a 3rd thing no one has ever preached before. This means that if I am correct, all of Christianity is cursed since I'm the only person with the true gospel.

And my human reaction is that this is ludicrous.

Why can't Christians understand the gospel? I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, but shouldn't someone understand it? And that group that does understand it, why are they right and all other Christians dead wrong and cursed?

But this applies to any topic really about scripture. "I'm right because I have 5 verses plus my own interpretation of those 5 verses, and I ignored 10 verses to come up with these 5... " This seems to be Christianity's interpretation of scripture.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

You have a hard time of accepting that the understanding of scripture changes with time?

 

[brinny]

The church never had justification by faith until Martin Luther and the reformation. And once it was believed, then everyone slowly drifted in that direction of interpretation of scripture.

This has continued in the church. Reformation -> Baptist & Methodist -> Adventist -> Finney-Moody -> Pentecost -> Apostolic

Now what has happened to me is I currently attending a modern Full-Gospel church, but also participating in an apostolic evangelist group. And even among Bible teachers I listen to, I hear differences. Now, most differences, who cares?

But some of the differences I have encountered concern salvation itself and the Gospel.

Paul says:

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse! - Galatians 1:8

But this is clearly happening... even happening among groups that are very similar. My church doesn't preach water baptism does anything, it is symbolic they say, and you just do it because you were told to. The apostolic group says it is required for salvation, as if you wont enter heaven without it.

And in my own research, I am trying to figure out who is right and who is wrong since I will be under a curse should I not get my interpretation correct.

My conclusion was a 3rd thing no one has ever preached before. This means that if I am correct, all of Christianity is cursed since I'm the only person with the true gospel.

And my human reaction is that this is ludicrous.

Why can't Christians understand the gospel? I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, but shouldn't someone understand it? And that group that does understand it, why are they right and all other Christians dead wrong and cursed?

Perhaps what is most important, is that we ourselves understand God's Word, as it is un-folded before us, with the Holy Spirit's guidance and imparted wisdom. We then pray for those who may seem to be amiss, as it is God Himself Who can determine that and make things a-right through His intervention, ministering, and imparted wisdom, that He promises to grant us through His Holy Spirit.

Reminds me of this verse:

"Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not." ~Jeremiah 33:3

When we delve into His Word, that is the equivalent to calling unto Him and "seeking" Him. He answers us, and reveals to us/teaches us, great and mighty things we did not know before and/or were blind to, through His Holy Spirit (our Teacher).

Delving/digging requires one of these:

 

[Goatee]

So glad i am a Catholic as we follow God via Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Straight from the Apostles. Almost everyone else went on the wrong path from the early days of the reformation.

 

[Razare]

You have a hard time of accepting that the understanding of scripture changes with time?

I don't have a problem with that, really. I believe scripture as understood by God is perfect and true.

What I have a troubled time with is that Christians don't even know what they're talking about. Why listen to anyone preach?

It's useless if they failed to attain to the gospel. Or if they have a teaching? Why listen? It's useless talk if no one understands the Bible in the first place.

We keep striving for further teaching and revelation from scripture, and we find it... and as we find it, we realize that 100 years ago those Christians knew nothing, were 100% deceived about many things, and we shouldn't have even had Christianity 100 years ago. It was only useful in that we learned a thing or two from them.

 

[brinny]

I don't have a problem with that, really. I believe scripture as understood by God is perfect and true.

What I have a troubled time with is that Christians don't even know what they're talking about. Why listen to anyone preach?

It's useless if they failed to attain to the gospel. Or if they have a teaching? Why listen? It's useless talk if no one understands the Bible in the first place.

We keep striving for further teaching and revelation from scripture, and we find it... and as we find it, we realize that 100 years ago those Christians knew nothing, were 100% deceived about many things, and we shouldn't have even had Christianity 100 years ago. It was only useful in that we learned a thing or two from them.

I understand, and empathize. However what we can do perhaps, is pray for them, lifting them up to the God Who CAN intervene. We are "fed" spiritual manna, so to speak, through God's own Word. We cannot depend on man. preacher or not, to "feed" us. We must be filled up by God Himself, knowing that man is fallible, preacher or not, and PRAY PRAY PRAY For that preacher. THAT, my brother and friend, is our MINISTRY, here on earth, even if God has placed other ministries on our heart, this is crucial.

God bless you, brother in Christ and beloved son of the Most High God.

This verse also comes to mind:

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” ~Ephesians 6:12

 

[Razare]

I understand, and empathize. However what we can do perhaps, is pray for them, lifting them up to the God Who CAN intervene.

I did that. God did intervene.

This is where it gets really strange brinny. I am in full-gospel ministries. God actually speaks to us and through us. We get words of wisdom and knowledge, miracles happen.

So I prayed for my pastor to get water baptism revelation. And then God spoke through him on the sermon on how I should prove it to him... by living out that life and ministry, demonstrating the value of water baptism. Proof by example was God's response through the minister hearing from God.

But it's like... why the shell game God? Why not just tell me I am wrong, or he is wrong, or that we need to both change course a little?

Like to me, it seems very bizarre that God who wants and desires to give us revelation, only gives revelation once we already got it. He comes and pats us on the back after we figured it out, but he certainly wouldn't do that before and just show us.

But to me, why is that God not just a deceiving spirit of the devil? Fruit I suppose. If it makes good fruit, I suppose we fight for that no matter what.

It's just strange. To me, it's turning into a trust issue between me and God because, how do I trust a God who plays loosey goosey with his believers who genuinely seek and hear from him?

It matters greatly because I took someone I was helping with his salvation to my church. He heard from God there, but the pastor did not preach about water baptism. If my pastor and I are deceived about water baptism, this man will burn in hell for eternity over our stupidity.

It's not some stupid little thing, people should know the truth. Rather, it's just a bunch of idiocy where we are in the dark playing roulette with people's lives.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I don't have a problem with that, really. I believe scripture as understood by God is perfect and true.

What I have a troubled time with is that Christians don't even know what they're talking about. Why listen to anyone preach?

It's useless if they failed to attain to the gospel. Or if they have a teaching? Why listen? It's useless talk if no one understands the Bible in the first place.

We keep striving for further teaching and revelation from scripture, and we find it... and as we find it, we realize that 100 years ago those Christians knew nothing, were 100% deceived about many things, and we shouldn't have even had Christianity 100 years ago. It was only useful in that we learned a thing or two from them.

Or maybe they're all right in some form or another. Why do you think you know more than what they knew? Or that the Holy Spirit is stronger in you than them?

 

[brinny]

I did that. God did intervene.

This is where it gets really strange brinny. I am in full-gospel ministries. God actually speaks to us and through us. We get words of wisdom and knowledge, miracles happen.

So I prayed for my pastor to get water baptism revelation. And then God spoke through him on the sermon on how I should prove it to him... by living out that life and ministry, demonstrating the value of water baptism. Proof by example was God's response through the minister hearing from God.

But it's like... why the shell game God? Why not just tell me I am wrong, or he is wrong, or that we need to both change course a little?

Like to me, it seems very bizarre that God who wants and desires to give us revelation, only gives revelation once we already got it. He comes and pats us on the back after we figured it out, but he certainly wouldn't do that before and just show us.

But to me, why is that God not just a deceiving spirit of the devil? Fruit I suppose. If it makes good fruit, I suppose we fight for that no matter what.

It's just strange. To me, it's turning into a trust issue between me and God because, how do I trust a God who plays loosey goosey with his believers who genuinely seek and hear from him?

It matters greatly because I took someone I was helping with his salvation to my church. He heard from God there, but the pastor did not preach about water baptism. If my pastor and I are deceived about water baptism, this man will burn in hell for eternity over our stupidity.

It's not some stupid little thing, people should know the truth. Rather, it's just a bunch of idiocy where we are in the dark playing roulette with people's lives.

Can we trust God, that He is BIGGER than ALL things, even if these things seem so skewed that it's beyond repair? Can we trust God, that HIS timing is perfect, and that He IS working out ALL things for GOOD for those who love Him?

This verse comes to mind:

"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." ~James 5:16

 

[Razare]

Or maybe they're all right in some form or another. Why do you think you know more than what they knew? Or that the Holy Spirit is stronger in you than them?

I'm skeptical that I know more.... and if I do know more and this is my conclusion, this is a very very bad conclusion. This means I can't trust anyone on scripture except myself (to a certain extent), because the whole church is applying slightly bad teaching to everything and since "I know more" I would just have to go with what I know.

It's bad.

But when I analyze the various positions, and points, and counter points of who is teaching what and I compare it with the word, and I conclude both parties are wrong, and this 3rd answer is the truth... what else am I to do?

If I arbitrarily pick one of the two sides, and have no reason to believe it legitimately, this is shakey ground to stand on. I am basically saying, "I'm willing to believe I am deceived and just go with what men say, so I can feel better."

So this is where I am at...

 

[brinny]

I'm skeptical that I know more.... and if I do know more and this is my conclusion, this is a very very bad conclusion. This means I can't trust anyone on scripture except myself, because the whole church is applying slightly bad teaching to everything and since "I know more" I would just have to go with what I know.

It's bad.

But when I analyze the various positions, and points, and counter points of who is teaching what and I compare it with the word, and I conclude both parties are wrong, and this 3rd answer is the truth... what else am I to do?

If I arbitrarily pick one of the two sides, and have no reason to believe it legitimately, this is shakey ground to stand on. I am basically saying, "I'm willing to believe I am deceived and just go with what men say, so I can feel better."

So this is where I am at...

It's not that one might "know more"......it's more about the wisdom, discernment, and clarity that the Holy Spirit imparts. In wisdom, we discover that we are UTTERLY dependent on God, and that we "know" less and less. We come to terms that it is GOD Who KNOWS ALL THINGS, and not "us", and we develop a compassion for our fellow man, who are struggling, just as "we" are, and that we are here to share and show God's grace, because we ALL need His grace, and TRUSTING that God will take it from there.

We "shine" His "Light" into the darkest of places, dear brother.

May God bless yer socks off for the heart that you have for Him.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

So glad i am a Catholic as we follow God via Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Straight from the Apostles. Almost everyone else went on the wrong path from the early days of the reformation.

How do you know that it's straight from the Apostles?

Just have to trust what the Church says, eh?

 

[ShaulHaTarsi]

I did that. God did intervene.

This is where it gets really strange brinny. I am in full-gospel ministries. God actually speaks to us and through us. We get words of wisdom and knowledge, miracles happen.

So I prayed for my pastor to get water baptism revelation. And then God spoke through him on the sermon on how I should prove it to him... by living out that life and ministry, demonstrating the value of water baptism. Proof by example was God's response through the minister hearing from God.

But it's like... why the shell game God? Why not just tell me I am wrong, or he is wrong, or that we need to both change course a little?

Like to me, it seems very bizarre that God who wants and desires to give us revelation, only gives revelation once we already got it. He comes and pats us on the back after we figured it out, but he certainly wouldn't do that before and just show us.

But to me, why is that God not just a deceiving spirit of the devil? Fruit I suppose. If it makes good fruit, I suppose we fight for that no matter what.

It's just strange. To me, it's turning into a trust issue between me and God because, how do I trust a God who plays loosey goosey with his believers who genuinely seek and hear from him?

It matters greatly because I took someone I was helping with his salvation to my church. He heard from God there, but the pastor did not preach about water baptism. If my pastor and I are deceived about water baptism, this man will burn in hell for eternity over our stupidity.

It's not some stupid little thing, people should know the truth. Rather, it's just a bunch of idiocy where we are in the dark playing roulette with people's lives.

It would certainly be nice to hear directly from God, but I'd like to point out John 14, where the disciples pretty much ask Jesus the same thing "Why can't you just show us your father and be done with it?". Of course God can reveal himself to us in his true glory as he is almighty - omnipotent and not limiting himself. That being put aside, however...

Would we really be ourselves if we were just able to easily consult God all the time? faith and salvation through struggle seem to be an integral part of Jesus' message.

Jesus shows us diversity in the Gospel, and the early church also shows Diversity as is evidence from Paul's letters. Understanding of scripture does vary over time and some of that understanding is time bound and cultural but some of it is also eternal and unchanging. We are imperfect people trying to understand a perfect Gospel with an imperfect faith, but Jesus does not demand perfection.

 

[Goatee]

How do you know that it's straight from the Apostles?

Just have to trust what the Church says, eh?

It is in scripture

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

It is in scripture

Like what?

"On this rock I will build my church"?

Or Paul saying to keep to the traditions in Thessalonians?

etc. etc.

Even if Peter is the rock, where does it say he'd have successors to inherit this 'rock'-ness and be the infallible authority of the Church?

If Paul is indeed talking about separate traditions that hold some other doctrinal information, how can you possibly know what your Church teaches is one and the same?

 

[giftofGod2]

Razare, maybe what you need to do is lay this third interpretation before us and put it out to scrutiny from the body of Christ.

If you are right then there should be an agreement to the revelation that God has given you by those who are filed with the Holy Spirit.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I did that. God did intervene.

This is where it gets really strange brinny. I am in full-gospel ministries. God actually speaks to us and through us. We get words of wisdom and knowledge, miracles happen.

So I prayed for my pastor to get water baptism revelation. And then God spoke through him on the sermon on how I should prove it to him... by living out that life and ministry, demonstrating the value of water baptism. Proof by example was God's response through the minister hearing from God.

But it's like... why the shell game God? Why not just tell me I am wrong, or he is wrong, or that we need to both change course a little?

Like to me, it seems very bizarre that God who wants and desires to give us revelation, only gives revelation once we already got it. He comes and pats us on the back after we figured it out, but he certainly wouldn't do that before and just show us.

But to me, why is that God not just a deceiving spirit of the devil? Fruit I suppose. If it makes good fruit, I suppose we fight for that no matter what.

It's just strange. To me, it's turning into a trust issue between me and God because, how do I trust a God who plays loosey goosey with his believers who genuinely seek and hear from him?

It matters greatly because I took someone I was helping with his salvation to my church. He heard from God there, but the pastor did not preach about water baptism. If my pastor and I are deceived about water baptism, this man will burn in hell for eternity over our stupidity.

It's not some stupid little thing, people should know the truth. Rather, it's just a bunch of idiocy where we are in the dark playing roulette with people's lives.

You are right. That doesn't sound like God ... or perhaps there is more than one thing going on and it is not all God.

Confusion is not the work of the Holy Spirit. And a God does not play silly games with us.

Just a point - even fruit, especially short-term, can sometimes be deceiving. Especially given that we only ever observe a small part of what makes a man. It IS possible to judge by fruit, but just make sure you've got plenty of evidence, not just a few points along the way.


It is very grievous that there is so much confusion. Truth does not change. God does not change. The Gospel does not change.

Which means if you have 100 very different voices, at least 99 of them must be wrong.

The good news is that nowhere does it say that having perfect theology and doctrine will save a person. Perfect knowledge with an evil heart toward God would still be a problem. He isn't setting up some theological maze that we must navigate perfectly, just waiting for us to make one wrong choice so that He can gleefully throw us into a fiery hell. God forbid!

But yes, the Gospel and its truths ARE important. I surely don't mean to imply otherwise. And so we find Christianity as a whole in a very sad state.

As for baptism, it was written about not only by epistle that was included in Scripture, but in numerous other writings as the Church was being established, and through these we can better understand in more detail what was written in Scripture. But it is there in the Scriptures as well. Putting aside preconceived ideas before reading can help, but it sounds like you already did that.

God be with you.

 

[Razare]

Razare, maybe what you need to do is lay this third interpretation before us and put it out to scrutiny from the body of Christ.

Then I would get 4, 5, and 6 interpretations!

God gave me a unique brain, is the issue... a unique way of thinking. Most people take a doctrine or set of beliefs, and do not ever connect those beliefs with the other things out of the Bible they believe.

Me? I just start connecting all of it... doctrine X + doctrine Z that no Christian thinks to try and correlate and fit together. Yet, it if it is all truth, it all fits together like a puzzle... right?

So as I fit the puzzle together, you get very interesting scriptural viewpoints!

Even worse, I look at the people who disagree with my viewpoint, look at their verses, understand those verses and then figure out who is right and who is wrong... and keep what I learn from that to improve what I believe even more.

Here is one example of things I can come up with: http://www.christianforums.com/thre...christ-revealed-in-genesis-1-opening.7956780/

 

[Geralt]

if you do not understand the gospel, you are not a christian.
if you cant even get your questions straight, how much your conclusions.

..
Why can't Christians understand the gospel? I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, but shouldn't someone understand it? And that group that does understand it, why are they right and all other Christians dead wrong and cursed?

But this applies to any topic really about scripture. "I'm right because I have 5 verses plus my own interpretation of those 5 verses, and I ignored 10 verses to come up with these 5... " This seems to be Christianity's interpretation of scripture.

 

[giftofGod2]

Then I would get 4, 5, and 6 interpretations!

God gave me a unique brain, is the issue... a unique way of thinking. Most people take a doctrine or set of beliefs, and do not ever connect those beliefs with the other things out of the Bible they believe.

Me? I just start connecting all of it... doctrine X + doctrine Z that no Christian thinks to try and correlate and fit together. Yet, it if it is all truth, it all fits together like a puzzle... right?

So as I fit the puzzle together, you get very interesting scriptural viewpoints!

Even worse, I look at the people who disagree with my viewpoint, look at their verses, understand those verses and then figure out who is right and who is wrong... and keep what I learn from that to improve what I believe even more.

Here is one example of things I can come up with: http://www.christianforums.com/thre...christ-revealed-in-genesis-1-opening.7956780/

So why not tell us your third point of view so whether we agree or disagree, we can do the same and learn from it to improve what we believe even more?