Who's Anointing????

[Benoni]

The problem with the NT is the Jesus who walked the earth never condemned anyone; except the religious of His day; He told the women at the well " to go and sin no more".

But then for some reason when He ascended in heaven there was a personality change and He became this monster God condemning and damning.

Something is surely wrong here; I am sure a lot of this has to do with Rome getting their hands on the Bible and translations were influences not by truth but pagan religions near and in Rome.

 

[Benoni]

This is a thorough study of the Greek word Aionios.

Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: "When the father who begot it* perceived that the image made by him of the eternal (aidion) gods moved and lived, he was delighted with his work; and, led by this delight, thought to make his work much more like that first exemplar." Inasmuch therefore as it (the intelligible universe) is an eternal (aidion) animal (living being), so he set about to make this (the sensible) universe such with all his power. The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, that which in fact we call time; that is, days and nights, and months and years, which did not subsist before the heaven began to be, then with its being established he operates their birth" (beginning to be, genesin auton). And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... Time therefore began with heaven. that they having begun with it may be dissolved with it, if there be indeed any dissolution of them, and according to the pattern of eternal (diaionias, in some MSS. aionion or -as) nature that it might be as like as possible to it. For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." And then he goes on to speak of stars and planets, etc., as connected with what was created in time. It is impossible to conceive any more positive statement that aion is distinct, and to be contrasted with what has a beginning and belongs to the flux of time. Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages. It is a careful opposition between eternity and ages; and aion and also aionios mean the former in contrast with ages. ]

In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown
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Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). For this expression (name) has been divinely uttered by the ancients; for the completeness which embraces the time of the life of each, outside which there is nothing, according to nature, is called the aion of each. According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios. Aristotle has not the abstract thoughts of Plato as to ideas, and the paradeigma of what is visible, the latter being a produced image of the eternal paradeigma. He rests more in what is known by the senses; and makes this the eternal thing in itself. But the force of aion for both is a settled point; and Aristotle's explanation of aion as used for finite things, I have long held to be the true one; that is, the completeness of a thing's existence, so that according to its natural existence there is nothing outside or beyond it. It periechei the whole being of the thing. 126

Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. To say that they do not mean it in Greek, as Jukes and Farrar and S. Cox, and those they quote, is a denial of the statements of the very best authorities we can have on the subject. If Plato and Aristotle and Philo knew Greek, what these others say is false. That this is the proper sense of aionios in Scripture, is as certain as it is evident. In 2 Corinthians 4: 18, we have ta gar blepomena proskaira, ta de me blepomena aionia. That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.

0166 aionios [SIZE=+1]αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
aijwvnio" (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. oi[khsi"; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ej" mnhvmhn aij.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 aij. cavri"=a gracious gift for all future time; Dit., Or. 383, 10 [I bc] eij" crovnon aij.; ECEOwen, oi\ko" aij.: JTS 38, ’37, 248-50) of the next life skhnai; aij. Lk 16:9 (cf. En. 39, 5). oijkiva, contrasted w. the oijkiva ejpivgeio", of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. diaqhvkh (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.) Hb 13:20. eujaggevlion Rv 14:6; kravto" in a doxolog. formula (=eij" tou;" aijw`na") 1 Ti 6:16. paravklhsi" 2 Th 2:16. luvtrwsi" Hb 9:12. klhronomiva (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; aij. ajpevcein tinav (opp. pro;" w{ran) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod. S. 4, 63, 4 dia; th;n ajsevbeian ejn a{/dou diatelei`n timwriva" aijwnivou tugcavnonta; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) kovlasi" aij. (Test. Reub. 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; krivma aij. Hb 6:2; qavnato" B 20:1. o[leqron (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. pu`r (4 Macc 12:12.—Sib. Or. 8, 401 fw`" aij.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (IQS 2, 8). aJnavrthma Mk 3:29 (v.l. krivsew" and aJmartiva"). On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; Sib. Or. 2, 336) in the Kingdom of God: zwh; aij. Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21 al.; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36 al.; 1J 1:2; 2:25 al.—D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also basileiva aij. 2 Pt 1:11 (cf. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Dit., Or. 569, 24 uJpe;r th`" aijwnivou kai; ajfqavrtou basileiva" uJmw`n; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life dovxa aij. 2 Ti 2:10 (cf. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—Sib. Or. 8, 410). aijwvnion bavro" dovxh" 2 Cor 4:17; swthriva aij. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of heavenly glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses ta; mh; blepovmena aijwvnia 2 Cor 4:18.—carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.

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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I think I just posted this... A careful study of the Greek word “aionios” (translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever and ever” in our English translations) shows that it comes from the Greek noun “aion” which always means “an indeterminate period of time.” It is a most unfortunate thing that the translators of old chose to translate “aionios” from the Latin language rather than the Greek from which the word is derived. God’s punishment will not last forever as is commonly taught, but will only last for the ages and only UNTIL God’s purpose for it is complete. [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/FONT]

 

[Benoni]

aion or aionios
These two words are translated as well as mis-translated thirteen ways: eternal age, ages of ages, course, world, , since the world began, from the beginning of the world, ever, forever, forever and ever, for evermore, while the world standeth, world without end, and, never.

Now I understand what the bias translators have interpreted the Bible using these two words as mentioned above but it just does not add up in the Bible. God’s Word is perfect; with out error; but it is full of errors if we believe these translator and or translations

The term forever (and its equivalents, eternal and everlasting) often occurs when it cannot possibly mean unending. In the story of Jonah one is surprised to hear him say while in the belly of the fish, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever" (Jon. 2:6). But he was in the fish only three days and three nights!

When a Hebrew slave loved his master and did not wish to go free at the end of the seventh year, we read, "... His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever" (Ex. 21:6). Of course, that couldn't be longer than his life span.

Again, when Solomon built the temple unto the Lord, he began his prayer of dedication with the statement, "I have surely built You a house to dwell in, a settled place for You to abide in for ever" (I Kgs. 8:13). And the Lord answered Solomon, "I have heard your prayer and supplication that you have made before Me: I have hallowed this house, which you have built, to put My name there for ever" (I Kgs. 9:3). But Solomon's temple lasted for only about 400 years! And it was never in God's mind to dwell there for ever!

Here is something that ought to be clear to any intelligent, honest man. A word that is used to mean in one case three days and nights, in another case to mean a man's lifetime, and in still another case to mean a period of about four centuries, surely does not mean unending or eternal, no matter what English word is used to translate it. USAGE DETERMINES MEANING.

Another illustration is the Aaronic priesthood. According to the King James version, Aaron and his sons were anointed as priests for ever. It says, "Their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations" (Ex. 40:15). Yet we read in Heb. 7:11-18 that the Aaronic priesthood is CHANGED to that of Melchizedek. "Now if perfection had been attainable by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people were given the Law, why was it further necessary that there should arise another and different kind of Priest, one after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed after the order of Aaron? For when there is a CHANGE IN THE PRIESTHOOD, there is of necessity an alteration of the law concerning the priesthood as well. For it is obvious that our Lord sprang from the tribe of Judah, and Moses mentioned nothing about priests in connection with that tribe. So, a previous physical regulation and command is CANCELLED because of its weakness and ineffectiveness and uselessness" (Amplified Bible).

Amazing, isn't it, that the priesthood which was ordained for ever has been CANCELLED! There would be no contradiction if the statement in Exodus were translated as it should be, "to the age throughout their generations." That is, throughout their generations AS LONG AS THAT AGE LASTED. In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures which Jesus and His disciples used, the Greek word AION was the word used for the Hebrew OLAM. According to Hebrew and Greek usage, therefore, these words mean a period of time, a period of unknown length, the duration of which is determined by the fact or condition or person to which the term is applied.

 

[Tavita]

[SIZE=-1]Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]by J.W. Hanson - 1899[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]

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Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] When our Lord spoke, the doctrine of unending torment was believed by many of those who listened to his words, and they stated it in terms and employed others, entirely differently, in describing the duration of punishment, from the terms afterward used by those who taught universal salvation and annihilation, and so gave to the terms in question the sense of unlimited duration.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] For example, the Pharisees, according to Josephus, regarded the penalty of sin as torment without end, and they stated the doctrine in unambiguous terms. They called it eirgmos aidios (eternal imprisonment) and timorion adialeipton (endless torment), while our Lord called the punishment of sin aionion kolasin (age-long chastisement).[/SIZE]
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Meaning of Scriptural Terms[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] The language of Josephus is used by the profane Greeks, but is never found in the New Testament connected with punishment. Josephus, writing in Greek to Jews, frequently employs the word that our Lord used to define the duration of punishment (aionios), but he applies it to things that had ended or that will end.1 Can it be doubted that our Lord placed his ban on the doctrine that the Jews had derived from the heathen by never using their terms describing it, and that he taught a limited punishment by employing words to define it that only meant limited duration in contemporaneous literature? Josephus used the word aionos with its current meaning of limited duration. He applies it to the imprisonment of John the Tyrant; to Herod's reputation; to the glory acquired by soldiers; to the fame of an army as a "happy life and aionian glory." He used the words as do the Scriptures to denote limited duration, but when he would describe endless duration he uses different terms. Of the doctrine of the Pharisees he says:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] "They believe that wicked spirits are to be kept in an eternal imprisonment (eirgmon aidion). The Pharisees say all souls are incorruptible, but while those of good men are removed into other bodies those of bad men are subject to eternal punishment" (aidios timoria). Elsewhere he says that the Essenes, "allot to bad souls a dark, tempestuous place, full of never-ceasing torment (timoria adialeipton), where they suffer a deathless torment" (athanaton timorion). Aidion and athanaton are his favorite terms for duration, and timoria (torment) for punishment.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Philo's Use of the Words[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Philo, who was contemporary with Christ, generally used aidion to denote endless, and aionian temporary duration. He uses the exact phraseology of Matt. 25:46, precisely as Christ used it: "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and æonian punishment (chastisement) from such as are more powerful." Here we have the precise terms employed by our Lord, which show that aionian did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ. Philo adopts athanaton, ateleuteton or aidion to denote endless, and aionian temporary duration. In one place occurs this sentence concerning the wicked: "to live always dying, and to undergo, as it were, an immortal and interminable death."2 Stephens, in his valuable "Thesaurus," quotes from a Jewish work: "These they called aionios, hearing that they had performed the sacred rites for three entire generations." 3 This shows conclusively that the expression "three generations" was then one full equivalent of aionian. Now, these eminent scholars were Jews who wrote in Greek, and who certainly knew the meaning of the words they employed, and they give to the aeonian words the sense of indefinite duration, to be determined in any case by the scope of the subject. Had our Lord intended to indoctrinate the doctrine of the Pharisees, he would have used the terms by which they described it. But his word defining the duration of punishment was aionian, while their words are aidion, adialeipton, and athanaton. Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he used aionion kolasin, an adjective in universal use for limited duration, and a noun denoting suffering producing improvement.

The word by which our Lord describes punishment is the word kolasin, which is thus defined: "Chastisement, punishment." "The trimming of the luxuriant branches of a tree or vine to improve it and make it fruitful." "The act of clipping or pruning--restriction, restraint, reproof, check, chastisement." "The kind of punishment which tends to the improvement of the criminal is what the Greek philosopher called kolasis or chastisement."
"Pruning, checking, punishment, chastisement, correction." "Do we want to know what was uppermost in the minds of those who formed the word for punishment? The Latin poena or punio, to punish, the root pu in Sanscrit, which means to cleanse, to purify, tells us that the Latin derivation was originally formed, not to express mere striking or torture, but cleansing. correcting, delivering from the stain of sin." 4 That it had this meaning in Greek usage, see Plato: "For the natural or accidental evils of others no one gets angry, or admonishes, or teaches, or punishes (kolazei) them, but we pity those afflicted with such misfortune for if, O Socrates, if you will consider what is the design of punishing (kolazein) the wicked, this of itself will show you that men think virtue something that may be acquired; for no one punishes (kolazei) the wicked,[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] looking to the past only simply for the wrong he has done--that is, no one does this thing who does not act like a wild beast; desiring only revenge, without thought. Hence, he who seeks to punish (kolazein) with reason does not punish for the sake of the past wrong deed, but for the sake of the future, that neither the man himself who is punished may do wrong again, nor any other who has seen him chastised. And he who entertains this thought must believe that virtue may be taught, and he punishes (kolazei) for the purpose of deterring from wickedness?" 5

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Whole Version - Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine of the Early Church[/SIZE]
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[Tavita]

There is a word in Greek that does mean Forever and Always - Aidios (# 126 in Strong's) and it appears twice in the New Testament in the following places:



Romans 1:20

20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
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And Jude 1:6

6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
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The words that most of our Bibles have translated "eternal", "forever", and "everlasting" are: "aion" (#165) and the adjective "aionios" (# 166). Both mean an age, or age-time, the duration of which is indefinite and are used with those definitions in all other writings in Greek including Josephus, Philo, Plato, etc. Makes sense that Jesus[FONT=Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif][/FONT] would also speak using words that were commonly used and understood by the people of his day. No one hearing Jesus speak or reading His words in Greek would have misunderstood his meaning. Those reading the writings of the Bible in their own languages would have had NO reason to believe in "eternal torment". One has to wonder WHY the original words have been mistranslated? Seems veeeery fishy indeed!
Jesus spoke of an "age of pruning" or "temporary period of correction" (kolasin aionion) as opposed to pagan writers who wrote about "eternal punishment" (aidios timoria). Different words! Different meaning! The word used unanimously by Greek writers to signify "endlessness" is "aidios". Clearly Jesus would have used "aidos" had He meant 'endless'.

 

[Tavita]

From the book, 'Hope Beyond Hell', by Gerry Beauchemin.

http://tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

So what if the Greek word aion has been erroneously translated “eternal” instead of “age”? What does that have to do with everlasting punishment? It has everything to do with it, since one of the key texts used in defense of the Augustinian view of hell is Mt. 25:46: “And these will go away into everlasting [aionian] punishment.” If this passage as translated here is
accurate, then I would have to admit the Bible teaches that hell is forever. But what if it is not? What if aion does not mean “everlasting”? What would that do to the “biblical support” of an infinite hell? It would negate the use of any verses resting on the word aion used in its defense.

Consider how the following translations word this phrase:

♦ Young’s Literal Translation: “punishment age-during.”
♦ Rotherham Translation: “age-abiding correction.”
♦ Weymouth Translation: “punishment of the ages.”
♦ Concordant Literal Translation: “chastening eonian.”

These reputable and literal translations use the word “age” and not “eternal.” These two concepts are diametrically opposed to one
another. They are not the same by any means. An age has a beginning and an end; eternity does not. Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases.5 However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers (This is very important!).

Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases.5 However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example,when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether.

Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel or the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages.


Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

 

[Benoni]

From the book, 'Hope Beyond Hell', by Gerry Beauchemin.

http://tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

So what if the Greek word aion has been erroneously translated “eternal” instead of “age”? What does that have to do with everlasting punishment? It has everything to do with it, since one of the key texts used in defense of the Augustinian view of hell is Mt. 25:46: “And these will go away into everlasting [aionian] punishment.” If this passage as translated here is
accurate, then I would have to admit the Bible teaches that hell is forever. But what if it is not? What if aion does not mean “everlasting”? What would that do to the “biblical support” of an infinite hell? It would negate the use of any verses resting on the word aion used in its defense.

Consider how the following translations word this phrase:

♦ Young’s Literal Translation: “punishment age-during.”
♦ Rotherham Translation: “age-abiding correction.”
♦ Weymouth Translation: “punishment of the ages.”
♦ Concordant Literal Translation: “chastening eonian.”

These reputable and literal translations use the word “age” and not “eternal.” These two concepts are diametrically opposed to one
another. They are not the same by any means. An age has a beginning and an end; eternity does not. Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases.5 However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers (This is very important!).

Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases.5 However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example,when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether.

Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel or the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages.


Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

I never heard it expressed so awesome.

 

[Der Alte]

The problem with the NT is the Jesus who walked the earth never condemned anyone; except the religious of His day; He told the women at the well " to go and sin no more".

But then for some reason when He ascended in heaven there was a personality change and He became this monster God condemning and damning.

I'm sure you believe all of this but nothing you have said here or in your previous posts directly addresses anything I posted.

Something is surely wrong here; I am sure a lot of this has to do with Rome getting their hands on the Bible and translations were influences not by truth but pagan religions near and in Rome.

Again something I'm sure you strongly believe but I have not seen any credible, verifiable, historical evidence for your suggestion re: Rome, Bible translations, and pagan influences. I believe that God was able to do what He said about his word. If you have any evidence that somehow God's word got corrupted please post it?

 

[Der Alte]

I think I just posted this... A careful study of the Greek word “aionios” (translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever and ever” in our English translations) shows that it comes from the Greek noun “aion” which always means “an indeterminate period of time.” It is a most unfortunate thing that the translators of old chose to translate “aionios” from the Latin language rather than the Greek from which the word is derived. God’s punishment will not last forever as is commonly taught, but will only last for the ages and only UNTIL God’s purpose for it is complete

Does NOT address anything I posted. I posted several of the renowned Greek language sources existing today. You simply present you own arguments.

 

[Der Alte]

[ . . . ]The term forever (and its equivalents, eternal and everlasting) often occurs when it cannot possibly mean unending. In the story of Jonah one is surprised to hear him say while in the belly of the fish, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever" (Jon. 2:6). But he was in the fish only three days and three nights! [ . . . ]

This still does NOT address anything I posted. You just ignore everything I post and copy/paste complete arguments from tentmakers. I am talking to you NOT tentmakers. If you cannot present your own arguments, in your own words this discussion is over.

And OBTW your tentmakers website deliberately misinterprets scripture to make it appear their argument is correct. The bars of the ocean were behind Jonah forever, from his point of view, and without the direct intervention of God that would have been true.

 

[Tavita]

This still does NOT address anything I posted. You just ignore everything I post and copy/paste complete arguments from tentmakers. I am talking to you NOT tentmakers. If you cannot present your own arguments, in your own words this discussion is over.

And OBTW your tentmakers website deliberately misinterprets scripture to make it appear their argument is correct. The bars of the ocean were behind Jonah forever, from his point of view, and without the direct intervention of God that would have been true.

Funny coming from someone who has not addressed me or what I have posted AT ALL. And also funny that for several posts YOU did not address Benoni personally but gave copied and pasted texts.

Tentmakers is simply a resource centre for many qualified men and woman from around the world who have studied Greek and Hebrew like you for many many years. Your sources too, are simply that... just sources. Just because someone has a big name before men (the christian world) does not make them big in the eyes of God, or that they have taught the truth. I would rather follow the narrow road and keep away from lies that have been perpetuated from one generation to the next.

I can give you one example of a very well known Greek Scholar and Theologian... Sir William Barclay, who said,

"I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God. Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell. He believed that even at the end of the day there would be some on whom the scars remained. He did not believe in eternal punishment, but he did see the possibility of eternal penalty. And so the choice is whether we accept God's offer and invitation willingly, or take the long and terrible way round through ages of purification."

William Barclay and universalism

This is jst one example of someone else who has studied Greek for a long time... you are not the only one. You most likely have not answered me because I don't speak as a 'scholar' and you think I don't know what I'm talking about.

So, please, put aside your Greek scholarship and listen to what the Spirit says to you...

 

[Der Alte]

Funny coming from someone who has not addressed me or what I have posted AT ALL. And also funny that for several posts YOU did not address Benoni personally but gave copied and pasted texts.

Have I directly replied to your posts and quoted them? Have you directly addressed anything I posted and quoted my post? If not then you have no complaint. OTOH B has quoted my posts, ignored them and posted 3-4 complete posts with nothing but copy/pastes from tentmakers, which do NOT directly address anything I posted.

What you call copied and pasted texts were NOT complete arguments from some website but quotes from several Greek language resources, such as TDNT, BAGD, Louw-Nida, etc., which OBTW did refute the false information in B's copy/pastes from tentmakers..

Tentmakers is simply a resource centre for many qualified men and woman from around the world who have studied Greek and Hebrew like you for many many years.

Which misquote and misrepresent legitimate sources to support their false views as I have shown from legitimate language resources.

Your sources too, are simply that... just sources. Just because someone has a big name before men (the christian world) does not make them big in the eyes of God, or that they have taught the truth.

Tentmakers is a bunch of unknown doods online, who may or may not have ever been inside a Bible school. My sources were the standard language resources for Biblical Greek; TDNT, BAGD, Louw-Nida, etc. available from all major bookstores. Where OBTW did tentmakers get their definitions, which I countered with the genuine resources, if you know?

I would rather follow the narrow road and keep away from lies that have been perpetuated from one generation to the next.

I'm sorry accepting everything posted at tentmakers just because it is what you want to believe, without checking any other credible sources is NOT following any road but your own assumptions/presuppositions.
I can give you one example of a very well known Greek Scholar and

Theologian... Sir William Barclay, who said,

"I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God. Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell. He believed that even at the end of the day there would be some on whom the scars remained. He did not believe in eternal punishment, but he did see the possibility of eternal penalty. And so the choice is whether we accept God's offer and invitation willingly, or take the long and terrible way round through ages of purification."

Anyone's unsupported opinion, scholar or scoundrel, is no more compelling that the opinion of some anonymous person on the street.

This is jst one example of someone else who has studied Greek for a long time... you are not the only one. You most likely have not answered me because I don't speak as a 'scholar' and you think I don't know what I'm talking about.

So, please, put aside your Greek scholarship and listen to what the Spirit says to you...

Tentmakers is NOT the spirit! Unsupported opinions are not compelling. Would you like to address the professional Greek resources I quoted? How about the other early church fathers who were not universalists? And I think Origen also wrote many things that did NOT reflect universalism.

The Encyclical Epistle Of The Church At Smyrna Concerning The Martyrdom Of The Holy Polycarp Disciple of John the apostle, 65-100-155 AD

And, looking to the grace of Christ, they despised all the torments of this world, redeeming themselves from eternal punishment by [the suffering of] a single hour. For this reason the fire of their savage executioners appeared cool to them. For they kept before their view escape from that fire which is eternal and never shall be quenched,

But Polycarp said, “Thou threatenest me with fire which burneth for an hour, and after a little is extinguished, but art ignorant of the fire of the coming judgment and of eternal punishment, reserved for the ungodly.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Ephesians Disciple of John the Apostle. 30-107 AD

Do not err, my brethren. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. And if those that corrupt mere human families are condemned to death, how much more shall those suffer everlasting punishment who endeavor to corrupt the Church of Christ, for which the Lord Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, endured the cross, and submitted to death! Whosoever, “being waxen fat,” and “become gross,” sets at nought His doctrine, shall go into hell.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

The Epistle Of Barnabas 100 AD

Chapter 20 The Way Of Darkness

But the way of darkness is crooked, and full of cursing; for it is the way of eternal death with punishment, in which way are the things that destroy the soul, viz., idolatry, over-confidence, the arrogance of power, hypocrisy, double-heartedness, adultery, murder, rapine, haughtiness, transgression, deceit, malice, self-sufficiency, poisoning, magic, avarice, want of the fear of God.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

The First Apology Of Justin 110-165 AD
Chapter 1

[...]we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies 297 united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years.

Chapter 12
Christians Live As Under God’s Eye

we hold this view, that it is alike impossible for the wicked, the covetous, the conspirator, and for the virtuous, to escape the notice of God, and that each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. For if all men knew this, no one would choose wickedness even for a little, knowing that he goes to the everlasting punishment of fire;

we believe (or rather, indeed, are persuaded) that every man will suffer punishment in eternal fire according to the merit of his deed, and will render account according to the power he has received from God,

Chapter 18
Proof Of Immortality And The Resurrection

For reflect upon the end of each of the preceding kings, how they died the death common to all, which, if it issued in insensibility, would be a god send to all the wicked. But since sensation remains to all who have ever lived, and eternal punishment is laid up (i.e., for the wicked), see that ye neglect not to be convinced, and to hold as your belief, that these things are true.

“Fear not them that kill you, and after that can do no more; but fear Him who after death is able to cast both soul and body into hell.” And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass.

Chapter 22 And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.

Chapter 28
God’s Care For Men

For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold.

Chapter 45
And if you also read these words in a hostile spirit, ye can do no more, as I said before, than kill us; which indeed does no harm to us, but to you and all who unjustly hate us, and do not repent, brings eternal punishment by fire.

Chapter 52
He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils. And that these things also have been foretold as yet to be, we will prove. By Ezekiel the prophet it was said: “Joint shall be joined to joint, and bone to bone, and flesh shall grow again; and every knee shall bow to the Lord, and every tongue shall confess Him.” And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched;” and then shall they repent, when it profits them not.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library​

​

​

 

[Benoni]

Der Alter,

Your such a biblical expert spin this one?????

​

2 Peter 2:1 ​

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.​

Strong’s NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):

KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

This is what you are preaching not me; notice what the Greek says the false prophets bring. Do they bring the message that God will save all; do they bring the good news of salvation to the whole earth. No they bring damnations to billions, total annihilation and destruction , perish etc.

Your whole doctrine centers on damnations, eternal torture, and the pagan word hell; you are the one preaching heresies of damnation; not me.




Luther was a great man of God; Luther was in what the Bible calls the present truth.

2 Peter 1:12
Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.​

​

Present truth; in other words as the truth is revealed you move with it. When a truth is reveled to you receive it and walk not with mans traditions; but what the spirit of truth reveals. Something’s are beyond what the human mind can receive; that is why God sent His spirit to lead and guide us in all truth. The anointing or the Christ is with in you; if you against the anointing; you are anti Christ.

Luther was not perfect when it comes to his life and his understanding; but Luther heard God and walked in the present truth God revealed to him. Not like the modern day Lutherans who hear only Luther and walk after Luther not the Christ with in them; they are so Lutheran, their worn out wine skins cannot receive the new wine of revelation. God is speaking to day with His present truth; but the vast majorities of God’s people only hear men and reject God’s anointing.

 

[Der Alte]

I think she addressed your post thoroughly; I was totally satisfied with her answers but your answers are nothing but the letter that killeth. You’re just too hard headed to receive anything but your doctrines of damnations.

Neither you nor anyone else has directly addressed anything I have posted. Copy/pasting several complete posts from tent burners or hell makers that say a lot of stuff about universalism does nothing to address the 28 passages of scripture I posted, Jesus speaking on punishment of the wicked. I will show you how it is done.

There thousands of Greek and Hebrew Scholars, some are Catholic, some Baptist some Greek Orthodox and Hebrew Scholars and they are all bias like your self.

I have quoted your post now I will address these specific points. Anybody can make assertions that some other group is biased. Assertions without evidence are meaningless. Where is the evidence? Can you quote 1-2 scholars and show specifically how they are biased? Just because someone has a different view or opinion than you does NOT make them biased.

If I placed my faith in Jesus the savior but all you know is Jesus the monster; I don’t agree with you and never will. You see I am bias because of God’s anointed speaks in ways you Greek and Hebrew Scholars have no clue.

Here you are making more assertions with NO, NONE, ZERO evidence. You know absolutely nothing about me. What you agree with or not does NOT mean anything. More assertions about anointing and Greek and Hebrew scholars with NO, NONE, ZERO evidence. Are you aware that the KJV has over 800 words that have changed in meaning or have dropped out of the language completely. E.g. what is a wimple or a bruit?

 

[Benoni]

Neither you nor anyone else has directly addressed anything I have posted. Copy/pasting several complete posts from tent burners or hell makers that say a lot of stuff about universalism does nothing to address the 28 passages of scripture I posted, Jesus speaking on punishment of the wicked. I will show you how it is done.


I have quoted your post now I will address these specific points. Anybody can make assertions that some other group is biased. Assertions without evidence are meaningless. Where is the evidence? Can you quote 1-2 scholars and show specifically how they are biased? Just because someone has a different view or opinion than you does NOT make them biased.


Here you are making more assertions with NO, NONE, ZERO evidence. You know absolutely nothing about me. What you agree with or not does NOT mean anything. More assertions about anointing and Greek and Hebrew scholars with NO, NONE, ZERO evidence. Are you aware that the KJV has over 800 words that have changed in meaning or have dropped out of the language completely. E.g. what is a wimple or a bruit?

I do not care to even read you post; I used to believe just like you; all Christian Universalist were once eternalhellist just like you. The theme of this thread was whose anointing; <staff edit>

I said I was bias, are you claiming your not bias?

No where does it say in God&#8217;s Word that scholars will lead and guide us into all truth; but is this not what your asking me to blindly follow?

Here is some evidence for you; notice I quote God&#8217;s Word not bias scholar.

David was king; He was God&#8217;s anointed King; not like Saul who was also anointed by God; but chosen by the people; like many ministries in the church (little c) realm today. David was one of those special people God called, anointed and was anointed as child. Today&#8217;s ministry is chosen by men. I have found men of God that I know anointed by the deepness of their understanding not because they have been voted in or out by some church committee. David walked for many years and knew He had an anointing; but he kept it to himself and understood that Saul was God&#8217;s anointed; that is until the appointed time. I think we are better off to wait for God to anoint God&#8217;s chosen vessel then to anoint our own.

Also let us not forget Solomon who was also anointed of God; but because of his marring and turning his heart to false idols he became corrupt. Reminds me of all the different religions out there that man has married into; there is only one way; Christ with in.

The Bible says the letter killeth; there is no life in eternal torture?

 

[Der Alte]

I do not care to even read you post; I used to believe just like you; all Christian Universalist were once eternalhellist just like you. The theme of this thread was whose anointing; do you even care about God’s anointing or is your carnal human brain all matters when it comes to scriptural truth?

I see no evidence that you have even read one of my posts. You just copy/paste pages and pages of universalist argumentation from hellmakers or tentbusters, whatever, I can’t tell them apart. See this post and the 2-3 following posts.

Who's Anointing???? - Page 3 - Christian Forums

I said I was bias, are you claiming your not bias?

Mine or your bias is not the topic of this thread. I’m sure that virtually everyone has some degree of bias, but how can bias be charged when someone quotes 28 passages of scripture, or definitions from major Greek language resources?

No where does it say in God’s Word that scholars will lead and guide us into all truth; but is this not what your asking me to blindly follow?

Here is some evidence for you; notice I quote God’s Word not bias scholar.

First, you don’t seem to have a problem quoting about 10-15 pages of universalist arguments from hellmakers or tentbusters, do you? I didn’t know those websites were considered God’s word?

Second, you did not quote God’s word you made some allusions to some verses.

David was king; He was God’s anointed King; not like Saul who was also anointed by God; but chosen by the people; like many ministries in the church (little c) realm today. David was one of those special people God called, anointed and was anointed as child. [1] Today’s ministry is chosen by men. [2] I have found men of God that I know anointed by the deepness of their understanding not because they have been voted in or out by some church committee. [3] David walked for many years and knew He had an anointing; but he kept it to himself and understood that Saul was God’s anointed; that is until the appointed time. I think we are better off to wait for God to anoint God’s chosen vessel then to anoint our own. [4]

Also let us not forget Solomon who was also anointed of God; but because of his marring and turning his heart to false idols he became corrupt. Reminds me of all the different religions out there that man has married into; [5] there is only one way; Christ with in.

[1], Does not prove anything about your following comments.

[2], Your opinion not supported by evidence!

[3], more of your opinion not supported by evidence!

[4], No evidence that anyone is not anointed by God!

[5], more arguments with NO, ZERO, NONE evidence!

The Bible says the letter killeth; there is no life in eternal torture?

I thought you only quoted scripture? This is only your opinion.

My previous post showing that the Jews believed in place of eternal, never ending punishment long before Christianity.

Who's Anointing???? - Page 2 - Christian Forums
​

Previous posts, no scholars 28 passages of scripture Jesus speaking on eternal punishment.

Who's Anointing???? - Christian Forums

Who's Anointing???? - Christian Forums​

Previous posts, no "scholars," definitions of aion and aionios from Greek lexicons NOT biased website.

Who's Anointing???? - Page 2 - Christian Forums

Who's Anointing???? - Page 2 - Christian Forums​

 

[Ichabod 2]

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