God Is Neither Random Nor Capricious In Whom He Hardens Or Hates

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Guojing

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Nope. The first Christians were Jews and Hellenists.
Acts 11:
19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen
traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only.
20 But some of them were men from Cyprus and Cyrene, who, when they had come to Antioch,
spoke to the Hellenists, preaching the Lord Jesus.
21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number believed and turned to the Lord.
22 Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem,
and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch.
23 When he came and had seen the grace of God, he was glad, and encouraged them all
that with purpose of heart they should continue with the Lord.
24 For he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith.
And a great many people were added to the Lord.
25 Then Barnabas departed for Tarsus to seek Saul.
26 And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch.

So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church
and taught a great many people.
And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

Those Jews who believed belong to the little flock.

You have to understand the transition that was going on in the book of Acts between the nation of Israel and their subsequent falling (Romans 11:11).

It will be tricky if you want to use the descriptive nature of Acts, to form your various doctrines.
 
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Mr. M

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In the Old Testament who were God's people?
Only in NT hindsight we can say that those of faith were the true people of God, such as those listed in Hebrews 11.
Within the context of the OT alone, there is no questioning who were God's people.
Hosea 2:23 Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth,
And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy;
Then I will say to those who were not My people,
‘You are My people!’
And they shall say, ‘You are my God!’ ”
 
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Mr. M

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Those Jews who believed belong to the little flock.

You have to understand the transition that was going on in the book of Acts between the nation of Israel and their subsequent falling (Romans 11:11).

It will be tricky if you want to use the descriptive nature of Acts, to form your various doctrines.
I have never found Acts the least bit tricky. I suppose when it contradicts your statement, you can divert by suggesting that I am forming doctrines. Hellenists were Jews who embraced Greek culture and language and used the LXX. There is absolutely no difference between those Jews being called Christians , and Jews today who call themselves Messianic. As to Gentiles who call themselves Messianic...???
 
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Guojing

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I have never found Acts the least bit tricky. I suppose when it contradicts your statement, you can divert by suggesting that I am forming doctrines. Hellenists were Jews who embraced Greek culture and language and used the LXX. There is absolutely no difference between those Jews being called Christians , and Jews today who call themselves Messianic. As to Gentiles who call themselves Messianic...???

Your belief using that acts passage does not negate my point that Paul was addressing the Jewish remnant who believed, the little flock, in romans 9.

Those christians you read about in Antioch do not belong to that group.

That was my point
 
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Mr. M

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Your belief using that acts passage does not negate my point that Paul was addressing the Jewish remnant who believed, the little flock, in romans 9.

Those christians you read about in Antioch do not belong to that group.

That was my point
Nope. You claimed that the term "Jewish Christian" is an oxymoron.
Acts 11 proves that is not an accurate statement. That was my point.
The remnant in Romans 11 were "Jewish Christians".
You cannot harmonize your interpretation of Romans 9 with Romans 11.
No wonder Acts 11 is so tricky for you. Christian is just a Hellenistic
term used by Greek speaking Jews who believed in Yeshua. Not a trick.
 
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Guojing

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Nope. You claimed that the term "Jewish Christian" is an oxymoron.
Acts 11 proves that is not an accurate statement. That was my point.
The remnant in Romans 11 were "Jewish Christians".
You cannot harmonize your interpretation of Romans 9 with Romans 11.
No wonder Acts 11 is so tricky for you. Christian is just a Hellenistic
term used by Greek speaking Jews who believed in Yeshua. Not a trick.

The little flock I was talking about, never called themselves "Christians". That is why I said that term is oxymoronic

There is a reason why Acts 11:19 said they preach to Jews only.
 
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Mr. M

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Jewish Christians is an oxymoronic term to use in trying to understand Romans 9-11.

There are the physical Jews, some believed Jesus as their Messiah, majority do not.

There are the gentiles who believed that Christ died for their sins and rose again for their justification. These are the Christians.
Here is your original post. It's a false statement, indefensible with scriptures, so you make up some "little flock" theology to divert from your own mis-statement which is off topic.
The only time that expression is used, Jesus is addressing His disciples about the kingdom, and is advising them about worldly possessions. Paul never uses the term. It has nothing to do with Romans, and as per usual off topic and part of some personal agenda of yours that I wish you would keep off the threads I originate. Read the OP comment on John the Baptist and how the rejection or reception of his teaching impacted who became believers. That is the topic, not some imaginary little flock.
 
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Guojing

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Here is your original post. It's a false statement, indefensible with scriptures, so you make up some "little flock" theology to divert from your own mis-statement which is off topic.
The only time that expression is used, Jesus is addressing His disciples about the kingdom, and is advising them about worldly possessions. Paul never uses the term. It has nothing to do with Romans, and as per usual off topic and part of some personal agenda of yours that I wish you would keep off the threads I originate. Read the OP comment on John the Baptist and how the rejection or reception of his teaching impacted who became believers. That is the topic, not some imaginary little flock.

The little flock refers to the remnant of Israel who believed that Jesus is their promised Messiah.

You can call it remnant if you prefer.

Again, my point is, they are not Christians, they don't call themselves Christians.

That is why your usage of the term Jewish Christians for Romans 9 is incorrect. Its an oxymoronic term.
 
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Mr. M

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The little flock refers to the remnant of Israel who believed that Jesus is their promised Messiah.

You can call it remnant if you prefer.

Again, my point is, they are not Christians, not oxymoronic they don't call themselves Christians.

That is why your usage of the term Jewish Christians for Romans 9 is incorrect. Its an oxymoronic term.
Then you are saying that the Jews in Acts who are called Christian and who Paul fellowships with at Antioch are not of the remnant elect. But they certainly are and Jewish Christian is not oxymoronic. Calling Acts tricky for understanding doctrine isn't going to cut it. What is described in Acts early in the church Is the very thing Paul is referencing in his epistles to the early church, who were first called Christian at Antioch and were obviously Jews as described in that tricky account.
 
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Guojing

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Then you are saying that the Jews in Acts who are called Christian and who Paul fellowships with at Antioch are not of the remnant elect. But they certainly are and Jewish Christian is not oxymoronic. Calling Acts tricky for understanding doctrine isn't going to cut it. What is described in Acts early in the church Is the very thing Paul is referencing in his epistles to the early church, who were first called Christian at Antioch and were obviously Jews as described in that tricky account.

How is it obvious that they are Jews? You just assumed they are. Show me your reasoning.

As I said, there is a clear reason why Luke wrote Acts 11:19, to contrast immediately with the verse after, vs 20. Even if you can assume the "men of Cyprus and Cyrene" were part of the little flock, that passage did not say they remained with them.

There is nothing in that passage that linked them to the remnant of Jewish believers, the little flock.
 
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Rose_bud

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Not being an academic, I only gradually become familiar with the dogmas of men that exist in the Christian Community. Most recently, this strange idea of "Gentile Reprobation" has come to my attention, suggesting that those judged as "goats" were predestined and their choices played no part. And this in spite of the Lord's own words:

Matthew 25:

45 Then He will answer them, saying, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it

to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.

46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

This is as clear a statement of personal accountability as you will ever hear, and I marvel that someone could attain to the level of spiritual blindness to ignore such evidence to the contrary against the position they hold. I then realize that this is a perfect example of the Lord hardening hearts and why.

To accuse the Lord of being random and capricious takes quite the reprobate mind. The proponents also demonstrate a marked inability to receive any instruction or correction as further evidence to the state of their heart. I would implore that all prayers, supplications and intercessions be made on this topic, even as I will now demonstrate how and why a heart is hardened in the Gospels.

John 1:

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.

I highlight the final phrase, for this is often overlooked, and is a key to understanding why the scribes and Pharisees, and many of the citizens of Jerusalem were hardened against the Lord, as discussed by Paul in Romans 9.

Note that the narrative also stipulates that John was "a man sent from God". The Lord Himself also speaks to this, although many think that He was only referring to Himself. I will soon prove otherwise.

John 6:

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Now, to John the baptist, and the truth that his ministry was a litmus test for the hearts of Israel.

Luke 7:27 This is he of whom it is written:

‘Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.’

28 For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist;

but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God,

having been baptized with the baptism of John.


30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves,

being not baptized of him
.

The Lord calls them out on this in Jerusalem, and silences their opposition.

Luke 20:1 Now it happened on one of those days, as He taught the people in the temple and preached the gospel,

that the chief priests and the scribes, together with the elders, confronted Him

2 and spoke to Him, saying, “Tell us, by what authority are You doing these things?

Or who is he who gave You this authority?”

3 But He answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, and answer Me:

4 The baptism of John—was it from heaven or from men?

5 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say,

‘Why then did you not believe him?’


6 But if we say, ‘From men,’ all the people will stone us, for they are persuaded that John was a prophet.”

7 So they answered that they did not know where it was from.

8 And Jesus said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”
Those who did believe in John the baptist not only were baptized by him, publicly confessing their sins, but they also listened to him teach, which prepared their hearts to receive the Lord.

John 10:

40 And He went away again beyond the Jordan to the place where John was baptizing at first, and there He stayed.

41 Then many came to Him and said, “John performed no sign, but all the things that John spoke

about this Man were true.”


42
And many believed in Him there.

Therefore, it is with good reason that the Lord hardens hearts, and those who accuse Him of doing so otherwise are hardened in their own hearts, and unteachable to the contrary, which is the very nature of a reprobate mind. Such is the true nature of man's reprobation, holding to doctrines of men that oppose the Word of God.
Hi there Mr M:wave:

Hope you are good. I’ve read through the post and these are my thoughts concerning the texts you posted.

As to the why the hardness of the heart, I believe as you do, that we have a choice in how we respond to the goodness, forbearance and patience of God, which leads to repentance . But at the same time, I can hold in my heart the sovereignty of God. Simply because the clay will never be able to fully fathom the plans of the Potter. Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

John 1 as you pointed out was the one to turn the hearts of the children to the Father, and through his witness many believed, and so to Johns disciples followed Him (Andrew).

I don’t think John 6 refers to this but rather to the Father and Son relationship and salvation plan. (The immediate context offers meaning)

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.

John indeed performed no signs but his words concerning Christ were true. Those words were most likely the words consistent with the words of the Prophets, that one would come to proclaim good news to the poor… to bind up the brokenhearted,..to proclaim freedom for the captives, and release from darkness for the prisoners…he would come healing etc , as He said in Johns moment of doubt in prison (Luke 7:22).

As for how Christ responds in Luke to the Pharisees who rejected Him, I think Christ exercised absolute wisdom (Luke 2:52), in His response to them… (Proverbs 26:4-5)

Also, the parable in Luke 20 of the talents was a condemnation as they understood He was referring to them. The parable becoming a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone’? The vineyard given to others (the apostles building on the foundation).

As for the hearts hardened, the parable of the sower also speaks to the condition of the heart to receive the message of Christ. That an enemy comes if the message is not understood. This passage also the fulfilment to Isaiah 6

Matthew 13
14 In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled: ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15For this people’s heart has grown callous; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise, they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.

Had they turned to Him, he would have healed them. The prophets (whom all experienced the same fate) were consistent with this call to repentance. Had Gods people repented of breaching the covenant requirements, in a nutshell “love God, love others”. He would forgive them.

Jesus laments for them Luke 13

34”O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!

He was always willing, they not so.
 
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Strong in Him

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By the way, the topic is actually about the Lord hardening someone's heart, and whether this would ever be done without clear justification.
And why would God, who IS love, harden someone's heart?
Love does not dishonour others or keep a record of wrongs. 1 Corinthians 13:5. It is not easily angered, always protects, always hopes, always perseveres, 1 Corinthians 13:7.
 
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41 Then many came to Him and said, “John performed no sign,

but all the things that John spoke

about this Man were true.”


42
And many believed in Him there.

Therefore, it is with good reason that the Lord hardens hearts, and those who accuse Him of doing so otherwise are hardened in their own hearts, and unteachable to the contrary, which is the very nature of a reprobate mind. Such is the true nature of man's reprobation, holding to doctrines of men that oppose the Word of God.

The same words and deeds which softens some people's hearts can harden another person's heart, so what causes that?
As always, perhaps with exceptions at times as God Deigns,
it is their choice.
 
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Mr. M

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And why would God, who IS love, harden someone's heart?
Love does not dishonour others or keep a record of wrongs. 1 Corinthians 13:5. It is not easily angered, always protects, always hopes, always perseveres, 1 Corinthians 13:7.
For His own purposes. Romans 9
 
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Mr. M

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That would mean he was going against his own nature - which is impossible.
God's "own nature" is that "He does whatever He pleases". Psalm 115:3
Romans 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
 
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bling

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Jewish Christians is an oxymoronic term to use in trying to understand Romans 9-11.

There are the physical Jews, some believed Jesus as their Messiah, majority do not.

There are the gentiles who believed that Christ died for their sins and rose again for their justification. These are the Christians.
glad you picked up on that, I do think at this time there were Jewish Christians, Paul was trying to make them Christians who were also Jews. There was still this huge difference between Jews and Gentiles in Rome.
 
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Mr. M

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glad you picked up on that, I do think at this time there were Jewish Christians, Paul was trying to make them Christians who were also Jews. There was still this huge difference between Jews and Gentiles in Rome.
Acts 11:
19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen
traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only.
20 But some of them were men from Cyprus and Cyrene, who, when they had come to Antioch,
spoke to the Hellenists, preaching the Lord Jesus.
21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number believed and turned to the Lord.
22 Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem,
and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch.
23 When he came and had seen the grace of God, he was glad, and encouraged them all
that with purpose of heart they should continue with the Lord.
24 For he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith.
And a great many people were added to the Lord.
25 Then Barnabas departed for Tarsus to seek Saul.
26 And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch.

So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church
and taught a great many people.
And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

Hellenists were Jews who embraced Greek culture and language, and used the LXX scriptures.
The word "Christian" is simply a function of that culture and language, and has no theological
distinction. Modern Jewish believers call themselves Messianic. If they preferred Greek
as it is the language of the NT and called themselves Christian, it would make no difference.
They both are professing their belief that Yeshua is Messiah/Christ.
 
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God's "own nature" is that "He does whatever He pleases". Psalm 115:3
No, that's his actions - doing.
His nature is who he is - I AM who I AM. And he is love., John 4:8.
As well as being holy, Leviticus 11:45, Isaiah 6:3, perfect, Matthew 5:48 and the God who does not change, Malachi 4:6.
 
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Mr. M

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No, that's his actions - doing.
His nature is who he is - I AM who I AM. And he is love., John 4:8.
As well as being holy, Leviticus 11:45, Isaiah 6:3, perfect, Matthew 5:48 and the God who does not change, Malachi 4:6.
What does any of that have to do with hardening of hearts?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy,
which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

You can express an opinion about the meaning of God is love.
But He is also a holy and righteous God who loves justice and hates wickedness,
He is a passionate God (some translate 'jealous'). His wrath will be revealed.

Psalm 11:7 For the LORD is righteous,
His countenance beholds the upright.[

Psalm 33:5 He loves righteousness and justice;
The earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Nahum 1:
2 God is jealous, and the Lord avenges;
The Lord avenges and is furious.
The Lord will take vengeance on His adversaries,
And He reserves wrath for His enemies;
3 The Lord is slow to anger and great in power,
And will not at all acquit the wicked.
The Lord has His way
In the whirlwind and in the storm,
And the clouds are the dust of His feet.
4 He rebukes the sea and makes it dry,
And dries up all the rivers.
Bashan and Carmel wither,
And the flower of Lebanon wilts.
5 The mountains quake before Him,
The hills melt,
And the earth [b]heaves at His presence,
Yes, the world and all who dwell in it.
6 Who can stand before His indignation?
And who can endure the fierceness of His anger?
His fury is poured out like fire,
And the rocks are thrown down by Him.
7 The Lord is good,
A stronghold in the day of trouble;
And He knows those who trust in Him.
8 But with an overflowing flood
He will make an utter end of its place,
And darkness will pursue His enemies.
9 What do you [c]conspire against the Lord?
He will make an utter end of it.
Affliction will not rise up a second time.
 
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