John 3:36 and Universalism

[leafchomper100]

John 3:36 : “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

I have seen some Universalists claim that John 3:36 doesn’t affect their doctrine at all. Instead they agree with it because they agree that unbelievers shall not see life until they believe in Jesus Christ. Which I agree with too. However, where we disagree is when this offer to accept salvation expires. Universalists take this to mean that even those who die physically in a state of rejection of Christ will still have the opportunity post mortem to accept Christ thus changing their eternal destiny by leaving Hell and going to Heaven.

The problem is that it is not biblical. The clear teaching of the New Testament is that our eternal fates are sealed at our death because we are judged solely based on what we did in this life and not on a choice we make after death. What we say after physical death has no impact on whether we go to heaven or hell. So when John says that the one who rejects the son shall not see life he is indeed correct and that will be permanent in effect when someone dies physically.

Luke 16:19-31 is a perfect teaching by Jesus Christ that once we die we cannot change our eternal destinations. Our fate is fixed. I don’t want to hear any Universalist throw a cop out card by claiming that this is a parable just so you can discard it and not deal with the clear teaching.

In Luke 16:19-31 the Rich Man after dying physically woke up in torment in Hades and is told that he cannot cross over to paradise and those in paradise or that are saved cannot cross over to those that are damned confirming that at death our fates are sealed for eternity and that is consistent with the rest of scripture which testifies that it is this life that determines our eternal abode.

"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’" - Luke 16:26

This passage is nonsensical if post mortem salvation is true, what Jesus should have said is "You can cross over once you repent" but he doesn't and also we see the Rich Man once accepting his fate that he is forever damned he starts pleading with Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his brothers to repent so that they do not come to this place of torment. This text is not identified as a parable. But even if its parabolic in nature, treating it as an unreliable source ignores the one who is giving the account. Should we believe that Christ would engage speculative imagery on such a serious matter? Luke 16 is a clear teaching that this is the life to either choose or reject Christ and after death we will not get another chance.


Romans 2:6-10

“God's righteous judgment will be revealed.He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek”

We will all be judged based on what we did in this body and in this life. Based on that we will either go into eternal perdition or into eternal life. Only one group receives eternal life.

Other passages that make this explicit : John 8:21-24 ; Matthew 16:27 ; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ; Galatians 6:7-9 ; 2 Corinthians 5:10 ; John 5:28-29 ; Matthew 25:31-46 etc.

All of these judgment passages teach the same thing and that is that God will judge us based on what we did in this life alone. There is no mention of post mortem salvation or multiple chances after death to repent and accept Christ. When John says that unbelievers "shall not see life" he is just confirming what Jesus says in Matthew 25:46 that when all people are judged according to what they did in this life those who rejected God will be sent into eternal punishment and its clear to conclude that they shall not see eternal life.

 

[sparow]

John 3:36 : “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

I have seen some Universalists claim that John 3:36 doesn’t affect their doctrine at all. Instead they agree with it because they agree that unbelievers shall not see life until they believe in Jesus Christ. Which I agree with too. However, where we disagree is when this offer to accept salvation expires. Universalists take this to mean that even those who die physically in a state of rejection of Christ will still have the opportunity post mortem to accept Christ thus changing their eternal destiny by leaving Hell and going to Heaven.

The problem is that it is not biblical. The clear teaching of the New Testament is that our eternal fates are sealed at our death because we are judged solely based on what we did in this life and not on a choice we make after death. What we say after physical death has no impact on whether we go to heaven or hell. So when John says that the one who rejects the son shall not see life he is indeed correct and that will be permanent in effect when someone dies physically.

Luke 16:19-31 is a perfect teaching by Jesus Christ that once we die we cannot change our eternal destinations. Our fate is fixed. I don’t want to hear any Universalist throw a cop out card by claiming that this is a parable just so you can discard it and not deal with the clear teaching.

In Luke 16:19-31 the Rich Man after dying physically woke up in torment in Hades and is told that he cannot cross over to paradise and those in paradise or that are saved cannot cross over to those that are damned confirming that at death our fates are sealed for eternity and that is consistent with the rest of scripture which testifies that it is this life that determines our eternal abode.

"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’" - Luke 16:26

This passage is nonsensical if post mortem salvation is true, what Jesus should have said is "You can cross over once you repent" but he doesn't and also we see the Rich Man once accepting his fate that he is forever damned he starts pleading with Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his brothers to repent so that they do not come to this place of torment. This text is not identified as a parable. But even if its parabolic in nature, treating it as an unreliable source ignores the one who is giving the account. Should we believe that Christ would engage speculative imagery on such a serious matter? Luke 16 is a clear teaching that this is the life to either choose or reject Christ and after death we will not get another chance.


Romans 2:6-10

“God's righteous judgment will be revealed.He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek”

We will all be judged based on what we did in this body and in this life. Based on that we will either go into eternal perdition or into eternal life. Only one group receives eternal life.

Other passages that make this explicit : John 8:21-24 ; Matthew 16:27 ; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ; Galatians 6:7-9 ; 2 Corinthians 5:10 ; John 5:28-29 ; Matthew 25:31-46 etc.

All of these judgment passages teach the same thing and that is that God will judge us based on what we did in this life alone. There is no mention of post mortem salvation or multiple chances after death to repent and accept Christ. When John says that unbelievers "shall not see life" he is just confirming what Jesus says in Matthew 25:46 that when all people are judged according to what they did in this life those who rejected God will be sent into eternal punishment and its clear to conclude that they shall not see eternal life.

It seems to me that Universalism is a false religion or a doctrine of a false religion; what they believe would not help. What makes a false religion false? Is it what they believe or is it what they do? Or is it who they worship?

The issue that I see regarding the scripture is, first one believes something and then one should obedient to that belief. When we say, “believes in the Son”, what is it we should believe regarding the Son, and what action is required to have eternal life?

 

[Diamond7]

Universalists take this to mean that even those who die physically in a state of rejection of Christ will still have the opportunity post mortem to accept Christ thus changing their eternal destiny by leaving Hell and going to Heaven.

We know unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire. Is this to purify them or destroy them? The question is if you burn off all of their unGodlyness what is going to be left. What do they have to save and redeem. We become a christian when we born again and become a new creation of Christ. We put off the old and put on the new. If people do not burn their old rags that they were wearing how can they put on righteousness?

Universalists believe through suffering people are cleansed and saved. That their suffering somehow purifies them. We believe we are saved because of the finished work of Calvary and the transforming power of God in our lives.

 

[TahitiRun]

John 3:36 : “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

I have seen some Universalists claim that John 3:36 doesn’t affect their doctrine at all.

If we read the passage the way you're presenting/interpreting it, it would tell us that the apostle Paul "shall not see life". It's a statement of fact, shown here:

Greek: οὐκ ὄψεται (future/indicative verb) ζωήν.

At the time John made this declaration, Saul (later called Paul) was an unbeliever who hated Jesus and His followers. He was exactly the person John was speaking of. How then can Paul claim to have eternal life when John explicitly stated he "shall not see life"?

 

[sparow]

If we read the passage the way you're presenting/interpreting it, it would tell us that the apostle Paul "shall not see life". It's a statement of fact, shown here:

Greek: οὐκ ὄψεται (future/indicative verb) ζωήν.

At the time John made this declaration, Saul (later called Paul) was an unbeliever who hated Jesus and His followers. He was exactly the person John was speaking of. How then can Paul claim to have eternal life when John explicitly stated he "shall not see life"?

I don't wish to be seen defending Paul, but with every threat made by God, always implied is, "unless you repent".

 

[TahitiRun]

I don't wish to be seen defending Paul, but with every threat made by God, always implied is, "unless you repent".

However, what John is speaking of does not and cannot repent. The "flesh" (the carnal, natural and old man within Saul, as well as Paul) is dead and will perish. The flesh is not subject to the things of the Spirit or the law of God (Rom chapter 7 and 8). And that is what John the Baptist spoke of and what John the apostle recorded.

If John had been speaking conditionally, such as "unless you repent", the declarative statement would have been proceeded or followed using a conditional particle, such as "εἰ". In this particular case, the statement John gave was unconditional.

And, not only so, but the judgment has already taken place (perfect/indicative verb "κεκριται" used), as shown here:

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not judged; he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[sparow]

However, what John is speaking of does not and cannot repent. The "flesh" (the carnal, natural and old man within Saul, as well as Paul) is dead and will perish. The flesh is not subject to the things of the Spirit or the law of God (Rom chapter 7 and 8). And that is what John the Baptist spoke of and what John the apostle recorded.

If John had been speaking conditionally, such as "unless you repent", the declarative statement would have been proceeded or followed using a conditional particle, such as "εἰ". In this particular case, the statement John gave was unconditional.

And, not only so, but the judgment has already taken place (perfect/indicative verb "κεκριται" used), as shown here:

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not judged; he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In Romans 7 and 8 Paul speaks nonsense.

You quote John out of context, which makes me wonder what “believe on him” means? We know from other places a person who repents is exempted from judgement.

Joh 3:1-15 is Jesus having a conversation with Nicodemus, verses16-21, are the apostles commentary, and these five verses should be used as a set; chapters 2 and 3 have the greater context of the Passover festivities. Apparently the Gospels were written down 30 years after the death of Christ.

 

[TahitiRun]

In Romans 7 and 8 Paul speaks nonsense.

You quote John out of context,

LOL...well, you and I need to step back and look at the big picture, the one that John sees on his "big screen", if you will.

When John enters into revelation on the "big screen" and from which he speaks, scripture time and space become "one". While in the Spirit, John is being transported to Genesis where the creation of Adam occurs (Gen 2:7). He sees the formation of Adam's body from soil wherein it's "fleshly" nature will exercise it's vanity, and the breath of God giving life to spirit, by which man becomes soul.

And we can "see" John formulating this revelation, in context, here:

Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all; he that is of the earth is of the earth, and of the earth he speaketh; he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Joh 3:32 What he hath seen and heard, of that he beareth witness, and no man receiveth his witness.

That IS John's context for what follows in v.36.

The faith that you and I perceive (v.36) is actually the faith of Christ working in us. It's His breath of life, from above, being revealed to our spirit, in time.

Our unbelief, on the other hand, is the flesh manifesting itself, also in us. Our "flesh", ie: the natural and carnal man in us, receives not the witness of the Spirit, which is Christ in us (1Co 2:14).

And, these two competing elements of the soul (Gal 5:17) remain at enmity until our Day of Division.

Anyway, these topics are perhaps better suited for another thread. I enjoyed our conversation, however.

 

[sparow]

LOL...well, you and I need to step back and look at the big picture, the one that John sees on his "big screen", if you will.

When John enters into revelation on the "big screen" and from which he speaks, scripture time and space become "one". While in the Spirit, John is being transported to Genesis where the creation of Adam occurs (Gen 2:7). He sees the formation of Adam's body from soil wherein it's "fleshly" nature will exercise it's vanity, and the breath of God giving life to spirit, by which man becomes soul.

And we can "see" John formulating this revelation, in context, here:

Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all; he that is of the earth is of the earth, and of the earth he speaketh; he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Joh 3:32 What he hath seen and heard, of that he beareth witness, and no man receiveth his witness.

That IS John's context for what follows in v.36.

The faith that you and I perceive (v.36) is actually the faith of Christ working in us. It's His breath of life, from above, being revealed to our spirit, in time.

Our unbelief, on the other hand, is the flesh manifesting itself, also in us. Our "flesh", ie: the natural and carnal man in us, receives not the witness of the Spirit, which is Christ in us (1Co 2:14).

And, these two competing elements of the soul (Gal 5:17) remain at enmity until our Day of Division.

Anyway, these topics are perhaps better suited for another thread. I enjoyed our conversation, however.

I think your big picture is wobbly and distorted. John 3 is about being born again, of the spirit. Jesus is the only one born of the spirit, the rest of the saved have to wait until the resurrection. John shows that Adam, contrary to popular belief, was always of the earth and did not fall there.

I would use Paul only if I chose to be confused, the choice is mine.

Time and space (spacetime) are cognitional tools or mathematical instruments, that do not exist themselves but define objects (in motion) that do exist.

The topic refers to Universalism in relation to John 3. My perception of Universalism is to mix all religions in a big melting pot to produce the Roman Catholic Church, which would mean not all would be saved.

 

[Valletta]

The topic refers to Universalism in relation to John 3. My perception of Universalism is to mix all religions in a big melting pot to produce the Roman Catholic Church, where salvation requires the Popes permission, which would mean not all would be saved.

"The pope's permission." What a bunch of baloney. I very much dislike misinformation about any religion being spread.

 

[sparow]

"The pope's permission." What a bunch of baloney. I very much dislike misinformation about any religion being spread.

I regret not saying what I meant, I have deleted that bit.

 

[Valletta]

I regret not saying what I meant, I have deleted that bit.

Thank you.

 

[Nicholas Vara]

1 Peter 4:6 David Bentley Hart

 

[TahitiRun]

I think your big picture is wobbly and distorted.

I would use Paul only if I chose to be confused, the choice is mine.

You really haven't addressed my comments other than to brush them aside. Perhaps another go would be in-order.

Please show (grammatically using the Greek text) why John's statements in v.18 and v.36 are conditional threats rather than unconditional statements of fact, that is: Events said to have already occurred, are occurring now and will continue to occur in the future, and stating or implying nothing in context to the contrary.

As for your choice not to receive Paul's epistles: Have you considered that what Paul writes has not been given to you? For example:

Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it have been given him from heaven.

Also, and not surprisingly, John's statement in v.27 adds further context regarding believing or not believing on/into Christ (v.36). The "flesh" simply is not and cannot be born/regenerated from above and/or receive spiritual things. It's of the earth and returns to the earth at death. It profits nothing (Joh 6:63).

As to waiting for the resurrection in-order to be born/regenerated from above: John places the believers regeneration in the past, here:

Joh 1:13 οἳ οὐκ ἐξ αἱμάτων, οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος σαρκὸς, οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος ἀνδρὸς, ἀλλ᾿ ἐκ Θεοῦ ἐγεννήθησαν (Aorist/Indicative).

And with continuing results, here:

1Jn 5:1 Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ὅτι ᾿Ιησοῦς ἐστιν ὁ Χριστὸς, ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ γεγέννηται (Perfect/Indicative), καὶ πᾶς ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὸν γεννήσαντα ἀγαπᾷ καὶ τὸν γεγεννημένον ἐξ αὐτοῦ.

 

[sparow]

You really haven't addressed my comments other than to brush them aside. Perhaps another go would be in-order.

Please show (grammatically using the Greek text) why John's statements in v.18 and v.36 are conditional threats rather than unconditional statements of fact, that is: Events said to have already occurred, are occurring now and will continue to occur in the future, and stating or implying nothing in context to the contrary.

As for your choice not to receive Paul's epistles: Have you considered that what Paul writes has not been given to you? For example:

Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it have been given him from heaven.

Also, and not surprisingly, John's statement in v.27 adds further context regarding believing or not believing on/into Christ (v.36). The "flesh" simply is not and cannot be born/regenerated from above and/or receive spiritual things. It's of the earth and returns to the earth at death. It profits nothing (Joh 6:63).

As to waiting for the resurrection in-order to be born/regenerated from above: John places the believers regeneration in the past, here:

Joh 1:13 οἳ οὐκ ἐξ αἱμάτων, οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος σαρκὸς, οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος ἀνδρὸς, ἀλλ᾿ ἐκ Θεοῦ ἐγεννήθησαν (Aorist/Indicative).

And with continuing results, here:

1Jn 5:1 Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ὅτι ᾿Ιησοῦς ἐστιν ὁ Χριστὸς, ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ γεγέννηται (Perfect/Indicative), καὶ πᾶς ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὸν γεννήσαντα ἀγαπᾷ καὶ τὸν γεγεννημένον ἐξ αὐτοῦ.

I am not a Professor of Theology and I do not believe it would be helpful if I were; their stuff does not come from heaven.

I understand that v.18 is the apostle speaking of his own faith, and who (quoting John the Baptist) offers an abstract of the whole covenant and its fruition; v.27 is another John, John the Baptise, the greatest of all the Prophets, speaking in a context of announcing Christ. There are other contexts where 99.9% of what a man receives comes from hell.

If I needed Paul for my salvation, that would mean Jesus and God and myself were in adequate; if I need Mohammad for my salvation it would mean Jesus and God and myself were inadequate; If I needed the Pope (in place of Christ) for my salvation it would mean Jesus and God and myself were inadequate; if I needed Oral Roberts for my salvation it would mean that Jesus and God and myself were inadequate.

I would consider Paul as a Evangelist, that is a teacher without authority, had Paul not been sent by the angel of light, had he not changed the Law.

My view on being born again, which is a conjecture, seeing that Jesus did not tell Nicodemus what He meant; there are two births, one of water and one of the spirit, the first is a natural birth, of flesh and blood, the second is where we are raised to eternal life and receive the Law written on our minds and heart.

 

[cfposter]

God is the giver of Faith and Repentance and the Holy Spirit. And all conversion if 100% the work of God.

It amazes me how anyone can think that the unsaved are therefore the responsibility of man. God is the one 100% responsible for the unsaved if He is 100% responsible for the saved. Your Bible shows you this in Romans:

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

So it is God will that some are saved now vs later. But ultimately all shall be saved. Did not God first call the Levites to be cleansed that in order that they should then be used in the atonement of the rest of the congregation of Israel? Likewise, today we have some being chosen now to be those New Covenant Priests that will be the fire and stones of the atonement for the rest of the congregation of the world in time of His Coming.

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

A refiners fire is exactly what the Lake of Fire is where it puts to torment the spirits of opposition and gives liberty to the souls of men will come forth as precious. And for the fuller's soap which makes a garment white. For the Lord will take the wicked garment of men and adorn them with righteousness.

None of this is without consequence. While God is responsible for our sins, He holds us accountable for our conscience does desire to do that which is evil. So while we can repent today, let's do so, for the time is coming when man shall pay for his sins UNTIL they are paid or they receive further Mercy from the Lord. But there is no such thing as endless punishment for God's ways are for Good not Evil and He doesn't Fail and does everything for the purpose of Good.