Who's Anointing????

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Benoni

Guest
Who’s Anointing?


Today we are overwhelmed by man belief systems in Christianity; the list goes on from Catholic, Baptism, Mormon, Christian Universalist, JW, etc. But who are they really following and why the confusion.

We have many linguists that are fluent in Greek and Hebrew; but are they bias or can we trust them? So many religious Scholars of all systems of religions; such confusion for a new believer.

I have my opinion but I want to hear from you all?
 
B

Benoni

Guest

Many quote the scripture Matt 7:13-15 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. KJV

A narrow way to me is to approach God’s Word with no, I mean no preconceived bias. Men follow their religion, creeds, dogmas, Popes, pastors and orthodoxy; and reject the Christ with in us all.

I am a spiritual man not a religious man; the broad way is the way of religion, the narrow way is the way of Christ.

Christ or the anointing, anti-Christ or anti anointing means the same thing.

The Holy spirit is a divine part of God with in each one of us capable of speaking, loving, reproving, teaching, convicting and transforming. The only way that can lead and guide us into all truth; who do you trust the 10,000 daughter’s of baby-lon (note spelling) or the Christ with in you.

We are not talking about math or science and I hope we are not speaking of a religious interpretation here; we are speaking of divine truth. Spiritual truth, deep and profound, unearthly, hidden manna, hidden mysteries; this has nothing to do with the literal, the letter that killeth; it has to do with what God is saying to us.

Many are you so afraid that someone will "spiritualize" away something in the Word of God, realizing not you are "carnalizing" away the Word of our Lord, for, said Jesus, "the words that I speak unto you, they ARE SPIRIT, and they ARE LIFE" (Jn. 6:63). Spiritual intelligence is the rarest of all spiritual things - and the least valued.

In God's sight it is the only true wealth. How rare has true spiritual understanding become! The trouble with God's people today is with their ears and eyes. Like the Pharisees of Jesus' day they insist that they DO hear and they DO see. But they do not understand. Neither do they know. Two worlds exist all about us - the natural world and the spiritual world. The natural realm is the realm of man, but the spiritual realm is the realm of God. The carnal mind CANNOT understand the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, for they are SPIRITUALLY discerned. The greatest need among the saints today is for God to send forth into our hearts the spirit of wisdom and revelation to dispel the darkness of the natural mind, religious carnal mind; that ever hangs as a veil about us, that lie may reveal to our wondering eyes those supernal things that pertain to HIS REALM.

John 16: 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Notice the only true source to lead and guide you into all truth. Nothing mention about religion here…
.
 
Upvote 0

plmarquette

Veteran
Oct 5, 2004
3,254
192
72
Auburn , IL.
✟4,379.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Politics
US-Republican
the Narrow way...the truth, out of the mouth of 2-3 witnesses, in context, according to the law of hermeneutics [ used for the last 8-900 years ]
...........let's ignore sin...ignore consequences...ignore sound doctrine....let's all pretend all is well, don't worry be happy ....?

Mormons & Jehovah's witnesses preach the wrong Jesus
Baptists or Baptisms....kind of hard to dip folks when romans killing them
Universalists are a heresy...denying the cross , salvation , and eternal judgement

Catholics ...Protestants ....Messianic Jews...all who believe in faith, hope, love, Jesus crucified and risen, who agree on the Nicean Creed ...ad 400

or should we flush 2000 years of dialogue and hard won wisdom to go off on a bunny trail ...?
 
Upvote 0
B

Benoni

Guest
the Narrow way...the truth, out of the mouth of 2-3 witnesses, in context, according to the law of hermeneutics [ used for the last 8-900 years ]
...........let's ignore sin...ignore consequences...ignore sound doctrine....let's all pretend all is well, don't worry be happy ....?

Mormons & Jehovah's witnesses preach the wrong Jesus
Baptists or Baptisms....kind of hard to dip folks when romans killing them
Universalists are a heresy...denying the cross , salvation , and eternal judgement

Catholics ...Protestants ....Messianic Jews...all who believe in faith, hope, love, Jesus crucified and risen, who agree on the Nicean Creed ...ad 400

or should we flush 2000 years of dialogue and hard won wisdom to go off on a bunny trail ...?







law of hermeneutics (straw man; Chapter and verse please)

I agree “out of the mouth of 2-3 witnesses, in context” but if these so called of 2-3 witnesses, reject the Christ; they too are anti Christ.

Why would we ignore sin? Did not the blood of Jesus reverse the curse? Is not Jesus blood greater then the sin of Adam? Does Jesus need to die on the cross again because His blood is worthless and weak?

Mormons & Jehovah's witnesses like your self and our Baptist brothers are deceived by the broad way they follow.

Christian universalism does not deny the cross; the difference being is the cross in our eyes is not weak and powerless; It is the very power of God that has reversed the curse for all of mankind; but each in their own order, file or rank. We embrace the judgments of God; for God is a just God.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:

If God does not call you, you cannot come.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.


The narrow way is Jesus, the Christ; the broad way is religion. The World rejects scripture; they out right reject God’s for that is how God created carnal men; dead in trespasses and sin. Men reject God’s anointing be it with in you; or God’s anointed. Anti-Christ/anti anointing means the same thing.

Do you believe God’s Word is divine? Or are the examples of two thousand years of sinful carnal religious men’s approach to God’s Word your only foundation for truth.

God’s Word is what I trust as well as the anointed men God has called. Men thought out Christianity as well as some great examples in the OT are anointed by men; and according to God’s Word not my opinion then God anointed them.

David was king; He was God’s anointed King; not like Saul who was also anointed by God; but chosen by the people; like many ministries in the church (little c) realm today. David was one of those special people God called, anointed and was anointed as child. Today’s ministry is chosen by men. I have found men of God that I know anointed by the deepness of their understanding not because they have been voted in or out by some church committee. David walked for many years and knew He had an anointing; but he kept it to himself and understood that Saul was God’s anointed; that is until the appointed time. I think we are better off to wait for God to anoint God’s chosen vessel then to anoint our own. Also let us not forget Solomon who was also anointed of God; but because of his marring and turning his heart to false idols he became corrupt. Reminds me of all the different religions out there that man has married into; there is only one way; Christ with in.

When it comes to heresy’s I cannot trust man’s opinion again; instead I must turn to God’ Word; for all men are liars.

Psalm 116:11 I said in my haste, All men are liars.

God calls men, like Moses, like David; but God did not call Saul.

Universalism is not unbiblical; it is just un-orthodox, orthodoxy is Biblical in the context of Baby-lon. Notice who the false prophet; notice the content of the verse.
2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Strong’s NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):

KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

This is what you are preaching not me; notice what the Greek says the false prophets bring. Do they bring the message that God will save all; do they bring the good news of salvation to the whole earth. No they bring damnations to billions, total annihilation and destruction , perish etc.

Your whole doctrine centers on damnations, eternal torture, and the pagan word hell; you are the one preaching heresies of damnation; not me.

You said” or should we flush 2000 years of dialogue and hard won wisdom to go off on a bunny trail ...?

You should take your own advise and flush it.


 
Upvote 0
B

Benoni

Guest
or should we flush 2000 years of dialogue and hard won wisdom to go off on a bunny trail ...?

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her
plagues. (KJV)

The greatest power in the church today is the bias of the believers. Noticed I put a lower case on the word Church. There is a true Church and that has everything to do with the outward church; but much more to do with the inward Church. The inward church is in all of us for the word Church comes from the Greek word ecclesia which mean called out.


Four things men follow other then Christ: Colossians 2:8 See ye that no man deceive you by philosophy and vain fallacy, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Christ. Philosophy, vain fallacy, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, The name of God denotes the majesty the authority, the personality and the revealed character of God. In ever temple there is a god or and unseen god to which the temple is dedicated. God has given us a mind that must discover things for our selves. This goes even further when we understand that He is changing our mind from glory to glory so we can not just understand His Word; but that we understand what He is saying.

Isaiah 4
1And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man,
saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
Carnal religious man rejects a personal relationship with God's Spirit with in they are much closer to the women i the verse above. They know not Jesus; they only know their creeds, dogmas and reject all spiritual matters. Spiritual to many is some religious priest with a pot of smoke. How dead can you get.


 
Upvote 0

Tavita

beside quiet waters He restores my soul..
Sep 20, 2004
6,084
247
Singleton NSW
✟7,581.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Politics
AU-Liberals
the Narrow way...the truth, out of the mouth of 2-3 witnesses, in context, according to the law of hermeneutics [ used for the last 8-900 years ]
...........let's ignore sin...ignore consequences...ignore sound doctrine....let's all pretend all is well, don't worry be happy ....?

Mormons & Jehovah's witnesses preach the wrong Jesus
Baptists or Baptisms....kind of hard to dip folks when romans killing them
Universalists are a heresy...denying the cross , salvation , and eternal judgement

Catholics ...Protestants ....Messianic Jews...all who believe in faith, hope, love, Jesus crucified and risen, who agree on the Nicean Creed ...ad 400

or should we flush 2000 years of dialogue and hard won wisdom to go off on a bunny trail ...?


You have everyone, and God, in a nice little box.

I'm a UR and I totally believe in the power of the cross and the sacrifice of Christ for sin. I believe in salvation, and that no-one comes to the Father but through Christ. I believe in eternal (not endless.. different Greek words) judgment... just not the kind of judgement I assume you think it is.

Should I place you in a box too? Where would I place you?... fundamentalist?

If so, then fundamentalists do not believe in the absolute power of the cross for salvation, they believe in the angry God of the Old Testament, and horror of horrors, believe that God is a monster who torments people endlessly... absolute blasphemy!
 
Upvote 0
B

Benoni

Guest
You have everyone, and God, in a nice little box.

I'm a UR and I totally believe in the power of the cross and the sacrifice of Christ for sin. I believe in salvation, and that no-one comes to the Father but through Christ. I believe in eternal (not endless.. different Greek words) judgment... just not the kind of judgement I assume you think it is.

Should I place you in a box too? Where would I place you?... fundamentalist?

If so, then fundamentalists do not believe in the absolute power of the cross for salvation, they believe in the angry God of the Old Testament, and horror of horrors, believe that God is a monster who torments people endlessly... absolute blasphemy!



A BIG AMEN....
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,589
6,066
EST
✟998,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You have everyone, and God, in a nice little box.

I'm a UR and I totally believe in the power of the cross and the sacrifice of Christ for sin. I believe in salvation, and that no-one comes to the Father but through Christ. I believe in eternal (not endless.. different Greek words) judgment... just not the kind of judgement I assume you think it is.

Should I place you in a box too? Where would I place you?... fundamentalist?

If so, then fundamentalists do not believe in the absolute power of the cross for salvation, they believe in the angry God of the Old Testament, and horror of horrors, believe that God is a monster who torments people endlessly... absolute blasphemy!
Twenty eight (28) passages, in order as they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on eternal punishment of the wicked.

Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.
[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness[sup]1[/sup] shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in [size=+1]no case
enter into the kingdom of heaven.
For universalism to be true, Jesus must be a liar, or sometime in the future the words, “ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.,” must change to, “in all cases you shall enter the kingdom of heaven

When do these words change?

Can sinners, the wicked, the disobedient, etc., be more righteous, than the Pharisees, and enter the kingdom? See, Ps 14:2-3; Isa 53:6; Rom 3:10.
[sup]1[/sup] Psalm 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it.

[6] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will [size=+1]say[/size][sup]2[/sup] to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​
[sup]2[/sup] Note ,Jesus did NOT say they “have done many wonderful works,” but they only “say,” they have. Makes me think of some TV “evangelists,” getting rich “in the name of Jesus.”

Jesus said, ”Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Either Jesus is a liar or the teaching of universalism, is false, which claims “everyone” will enter the kingdom.

In the following, vs. 23, of this passage, Jesus said, “I never knew you.” Jesus did not say, “I will know you some day..” 10,000 eons times 10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word, Jesus’ words, will still say “I never knew you.
23 And then will I profess unto them, I [size=+1]never[/size] knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.​
For universalism to be true, Jesus would have to be a liar here, or this verse, must change to say, “I will not deny you before my father.” When do the words change?
[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
At the end of the world, “All things that offend/the wicked shall be cast into a furnace of fire.” These are the words of Jesus, but Universalists cannot accept/believe in a God, or Jesus, who will punish or torment the wicked in fire.

Where does Jesus say they will come out of the fire? What is the duration of burning in the fire? See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.
[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[11] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [[size=+1]αμην[/size]/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted[sup]3[/sup], and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.​
[sup]3[/sup] Is there any scripture that documents anyone being “converted,” ever, at any time, after death?

Is there any scripture which states that the wicked, who are severed from the just, will be rescued from the fire and reunited with the just?
[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [[size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.
[13] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Jesus said that "few are chosen" for the Kingdom of heaven. Universalism claims that everyone will enter the kingdom. Is Jesus a liar?
[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [the kingdom of heaven] yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily, [[SIZE=+1]αμην[/SIZE]/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [[size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [[size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [[size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion].​
In this passage Jesus calls the sinners, unrepentant, wicked, etc. “cursed.” If universalism is true, then at some point Jesus must lift the curse and call them blessed. When does that occur?

Or 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, will God’s unchanging word, Jesus, still say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment

If the [size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion punishment ends at some indeterminate time in the future, so too does the [size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion life. The same word.

Does [size=+1]αιωνιον[/size]/aiónion punishment mean only indeterminate ages long, that will eventually end?
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [[size=+1]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/size]/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​
If the [size=+1]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/size] torment, of those who worship the beast and his image, and receive the mark of his name, ends at some, indeterminate, time in the future then the smoke is no longer theirs.

Does [size=+1]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/size] means some definite, finite, “eon of eons,” in the future, when the torment ends? No! 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, God’s unchanging word will still say, “those who worship the beast, they have no rest day or night.,” “those who worship the image of the beast, they have no rest day or night.,” “those who receive the mark of the beast, they have no rest day or night.”
[continued in next post][/SIZE]
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,589
6,066
EST
✟998,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​
If the unrighteous, in “Gehenna,” eventually leave, the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern them?
[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.​
When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does that change occur?

There is no second chance to receive the Kingdom, after death.
Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.​
What is the portion of the unbelievers? αιωνιον/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Luke 13:23, below. Jesus said, “many shall not be able,” to enter the kingdom. Universalists claim that everyone will enter. Is Jesus a liar? Some time in the future will this verse change to say, “Everyone shall be able to enter?” When does that change occur?
[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.​
[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in “hades,” the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word will still say, “neither can they pass to us

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, often unclear, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, “a certain man,” “a certain king,” etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[…]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[25] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God, and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true, either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When do the words change?
[26] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]5[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[27] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[sup]5[/sup] Note, is there any scripture, anywhere, showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water, and the spirit, after death?

When does this verse change to “Even if a man is not born of water, and of the Spirit, he can still enter into the kingdom of God
[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​
When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire? See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Note in the most well known and loved passage in the N.T. Jesus did not say everyone was saved already. But he said they are condemned already.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​
 
Upvote 0
B

Benoni

Guest
Der Alter;


I do not care if eternal punishment is written 2,000 times it is all base on two Greek words and one Hebrew to which these words were mistranslate to mean eternal, everlasting and for ever and ever by bias religious translators.

A careful study of the Greek word “aionios” (translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever and ever” in our English translations) shows that it comes from the Greek noun “aion” which always means “an indeterminate period of time.” It is a most unfortunate thing that the translators of old chose to translate “aionios” from the Latin language rather than the Greek from which the word is derived. God’s punishment will not last forever as is commonly taught, but will only last for the ages and only UNTIL God’s purpose for it is complete.

Eternal, eternity, etc. is not actually found in Scripture though in some aspects applied through inference of propositions. The problem is that the Greek words which were translated to "eternal" actually do not translate properly in English because there is no word in English which translates it properly. In this case, the word is "AIONIOS" and it is a descriptive adjective which just means "of, or in, or belonging to, or coming from, or resmbling, or befitting the AION.

AION is a noun meaning, "A period of time, or perpetuity of time, or definitive age, or unbroken age." It simply means an age with unknown measure which can be indefinitive or definitive.

So literally the word "AIONIOS" being translated as "Eternal" would more accurately be defined as "agely"; however since "agely" is not a real word, that leaves the English language without a literal translation for the word "AIONIOS".

So anytime you saw Jesus say "Eternal" this and "Eternal" that, he didn't say "perpetuality of time" but rather an indeterminate duration that is neither perpetual or definifitive.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
B

Benoni

Guest

Forget about what the preachers love to burn people up; what does the Bible say reference this word? Gehenna: They missed one little fact: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge, dead bodies, human flesh (not the people). Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. How precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment. Notice there is nothing mentioned about the heathen, the sinners (unless you are a brother) heathen, unjust; instead the verses address “brother”.

Matt. 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,589
6,066
EST
✟998,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I do not care if eternal punishment is written 2,000 times it is all base on two Greek words and one Hebrew to which these words were mistranslate to mean eternal, everlasting and for ever and ever by bias religious translators.

A careful study of the Greek word “aionios” (translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever and ever” in our English translations) shows that it comes from the Greek noun “aion” which always means “an indeterminate period of time.” It is a most unfortunate thing that the translators of old chose to translate “aionios” from the Latin language rather than the Greek from which the word is derived. God’s punishment will not last forever as is commonly taught, but will only last for the ages and only UNTIL God’s purpose for it is complete.

Eternal, eternity, etc. is not actually found in Scripture though in some aspects applied through inference of propositions. The problem is that the Greek words which were translated to "eternal" actually do not translate properly in English because there is no word in English which translates it properly. In this case, the word is "AIONIOS" and it is a descriptive adjective which just means "of, or in, or belonging to, or coming from, or resmbling, or befitting the AION.

AION is a noun meaning, "A period of time, or perpetuity of time, or definitive age, or unbroken age." It simply means an age with unknown measure which can be indefinitive or definitive.

So literally the word "AIONIOS" being translated as "Eternal" would more accurately be defined as "agely"; however since "agely" is not a real word, that leaves the English language without a literal translation for the word "AIONIOS".

So anytime you saw Jesus say "Eternal" this and "Eternal" that, he didn't say "perpetuality of time" but rather an indeterminate duration that is neither perpetual or definifitive.

I first learned to speak Greek the year of Sputnik I, when you can interpret this, then feel free to lecture me on the meaning of N.T. Greek. And NONE of this even begins to address my post.
Δεν φροντίζω εάν η αιώνια τιμωρία γράφεται φορές αυτό είναι όλη η βάση σε δύο ελληνικές λέξεις και ένας Εβραίος στον οποίο αυτές οι λέξεις ήταν μεταφράζει εσφαλμένα για να σημάνει αιώνιος, συνεχής και για πάντα και πάντα από τους προκατειλημμένους θρησκευτικούς μεταφραστές. Μια προσεκτική μελέτη της ελληνικής λέξης (μεταφρασμένος όπως «αιώνιος,» «συνεχής,» και «για πάντα και πάντα» στις αγγλικές μεταφράσεις μας) δείχνει ότι προέρχεται από το ελληνικό ουσιαστικό που σημαίνει πάντα «μια απροσδιόριστη χρονική περίοδο.» Είναι ένα πιό ανεπιτυχές πράγμα που οι μεταφραστές παλαιού επέλεξαν να μεταφράσουν από τη λατινική γλώσσα παρά τον Έλληνα από την οποία η λέξη προέρχεται. Η τιμωρία του Θεού δεν θα διαρκέσει για πάντα όπως διδάσκει συνήθως, αλλά θα διαρκέσει μόνο για πολύ καιρό και μόνο ΕΩΣ ΌΤΟΥ ο σκοπός του Θεού για την είναι πλήρης. Αιώνιος, αιωνιότητα, κ.λπ. δεν βρίσκεται πραγματικά σε Scripture αν και σε μερικές πτυχές που εφαρμόζονται μέσω του συμπεράσματος των προτάσεων. Το πρόβλημα είναι ότι οι ελληνικές λέξεις που μεταφράστηκαν σε " πραγματικά μην μεταφράστε κατάλληλα στα αγγλικά επειδή δεν υπάρχει καμία λέξη στα αγγλικά που το μεταφράζει κατάλληλα. Σε αυτήν την περίπτωση, η λέξη είναι " AIONIOS" και είναι ένα περιγραφικό επίθετο που σημαίνει ακριβώς " , ή μέσα, ή ανήκοντας, ή προερχόμενος από, ή resmbling, ή κατάλληλος το είναι μια έννοια ουσιαστικού, " Μια χρονική περίοδος, ή αιωνιότητα του χρόνου, ή της οριστικής ηλικίας, ή συνεχούς Σημαίνει απλά μια ηλικία με το άγνωστο μέτρο που μπορεί να είναι indefinitive ή οριστικό. Τόσο κυριολεκτικά η λέξη " μεταφραμένος ως " θα οριζόταν ακριβέστερα ως " εντούτοις από " δεν είναι μια πραγματική λέξη, η οποία αφήνει τη αγγλική γλώσσα χωρίς μια κυριολεκτική μετάφραση για τη λέξη " Έτσι οποτεδήποτε είδατε τον Ιησού πέστε " αυτός ο και " Eternal" αυτός, αυτός didn' το τ λέει " perpetuality του αλλά μάλλον μια απροσδιόριστη διάρκεια που δεν είναι ούτε διαρκής ή​
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,589
6,066
EST
✟998,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Forget about what the preachers love to burn people up; what does the Bible say reference this word? Gehenna: They missed one little fact: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge, dead bodies, human flesh (not the people). Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. How precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment. Notice there is nothing mentioned about the heathen, the sinners (unless you are a brother) heathen, unjust; instead the verses address “brother”.

Here is the Jewish understanding of Gehenna and eternal punishment by God that does NOT end.
Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
This is only part of the article.
 
Upvote 0
B

Benoni

Guest
First of all I am not concerned about the Jews and their traditions and beliefs on Gehenna; how many times did Jesus condemn the Jews for their traditions. My point to you about Gehenna is did these verses addressing heathen, pagan, unbelievers; in fact the only one they addressed was our “brother”.

So much that is taught in religion today is from tradition and not revelation; there is a pattern in the Bible when it comes to the word tradition; it is not spoken of in a positive light. Religious man is so caught up with the traditions and creeds and dogmas there is no room for divine truth. It is like a vessel full of old wine; there is no room for the new wine of the spirit.

Matthew 15:2
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Matthew 15:6
And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mark 7:3
For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

Mark 7:5
Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

Mark 7:8
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Mark 7:9
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Galatians 1:14
And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

1 Peter 1:18
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;


 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tavita

beside quiet waters He restores my soul..
Sep 20, 2004
6,084
247
Singleton NSW
✟7,581.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Politics
AU-Liberals
First of all I am not concerned about the Jews and their traditions and beliefs on Gehenna; how many times did Jesus condemn the Jews for their traditions. My point to you about Gehenna is did these verses addressing heathen, pagan, unbelievers; in fact the only one they addressed was our “brother”.

So much that is taught in religion today is from tradition and not revelation; there is a pattern in the Bible when it comes to the word tradition; it is not spoken of in a positive light. Religious man is so caught up with the traditions and creeds and dogmas there is no room for divine truth. It is like a vessel full of old wine; there is no room for the new wine of the spirit.

Matthew 15:2
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Matthew 15:6
And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mark 7:3
For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

Mark 7:5
Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

Mark 7:8
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Mark 7:9
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Galatians 1:14
And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

1 Peter 1:18
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Amen, brother!

Religion and tradition... :waaah:
 
Upvote 0

Tavita

beside quiet waters He restores my soul..
Sep 20, 2004
6,084
247
Singleton NSW
✟7,581.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Politics
AU-Liberals
Twenty eight (28) passages, in order as they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on eternal punishment of the wicked.......

Yes, I've studied up on all those verses you've given. But it pleases the Father to search out a thing... you know... ask, seek and knock, and the door will be opened..

Jesus said... Joh 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are ~spirit~ and are ~life~.

The words Jesus spoke are spirit... they are spiritually discerned... not head knowledge. He was speaking about what is going on inside of YOU. Don't read the scriptures with an attitude of you and 'them'. Everything He spoke was to you and me personally... even the passages about outer darkness and hell and judgment. They are for YOU, addressing your spirit life and flesh life.

And Benoni has given you good words about the real meanings of those words of 'eternal judgment', etc, that Jesus spoke... seek the truth and look beyond what you hear by christian writers and teachers... look for yourself. God tests our hearts by this. He wants to know if you listen to man or Himself.

I really want to encourage you brother, to look deeper, look higher, and look beyond..

And please don't look to Jewish tradition and teachings.. much of what they have comes from their exile into Babylon. I have been in the Jewish Roots camp and in the end learned how pagan it all is...
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,589
6,066
EST
✟998,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
First of all I am not concerned about the Jews and their traditions and beliefs on Gehenna; how many times did Jesus condemn the Jews for their traditions. My point to you about Gehenna is did these verses addressing heathen, pagan, unbelievers; in fact the only one they addressed was our “brother”.

So much that is taught in religion today is from tradition and not revelation; there is a pattern in the Bible when it comes to the word tradition; it is not spoken of in a positive light. Religious man is so caught up with the traditions and creeds and dogmas there is no room for divine truth. It is like a vessel full of old wine; there is no room for the new wine of the spirit.
[ . . . ]

Moderately interesting discussion about tradition but it does NOT address my post. You failed to note that the Jewish view of Gehenna and the never ending punishment of the unrepentant was scriptural. I highlighted the scripture in blue. And of course the 28 verses where Jesus spoke on never ending punishment clearly reflects the Jewish view I documented. While Jesus did speak against several specific traditions of the Jews, there is not one single verse where he refuted the view of Gehenna and never ending punishment.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,589
6,066
EST
✟998,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I do not care if eternal punishment is written 2,000 times it is all base on two Greek words and one Hebrew to which these words were mistranslate to mean eternal, everlasting and for ever and ever by bias religious translators.

A careful study of the Greek word “aionios” (translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever and ever” in our English translations) shows that it comes from the Greek noun “aion” which always means “an indeterminate period of time.” It is a most unfortunate thing that the translators of old chose to translate “aionios” from the Latin language rather than the Greek from which the word is derived. God’s punishment will not last forever as is commonly taught, but will only last for the ages and only UNTIL God’s purpose for it is complete.

Eternal, eternity, etc. is not actually found in Scripture though in some aspects applied through inference of propositions. The problem is that the Greek words which were translated to "eternal" actually do not translate properly in English because there is no word in English which translates it properly. In this case, the word is "AIONIOS" and it is a descriptive adjective which just means "of, or in, or belonging to, or coming from, or resmbling, or befitting the AION.

AION is a noun meaning, "A period of time, or perpetuity of time, or definitive age, or unbroken age." It simply means an age with unknown measure which can be indefinitive or definitive.

So literally the word "AIONIOS" being translated as "Eternal" would more accurately be defined as "agely"; however since "agely" is not a real word, that leaves the English language without a literal translation for the word "AIONIOS".

So anytime you saw Jesus say "Eternal" this and "Eternal" that, he didn't say "perpetuality of time" but rather an indeterminate duration that is neither perpetual or definifitive.

Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166.
[size=+1]αιωνιος
aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).
Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​
166 aionios- [size=+1]αιωνιος[/size]
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​
2. [size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;[/size] aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.

"Aionios is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."
From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​
67.96 [size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;[/size] aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.

The most frequent use of aijwvnio" in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, aijwvnio" evidently carries certain implications associated with aijwvnio" in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.
Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​
[size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;[/size] aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”). For a more temporal use, see Rom. 16:25; Phlm. 15.
Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​
[size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;[/size] aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.
Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​
166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} [size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;[/size]
from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​
CL The Gk. word [size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;[/size] aion, which is probably derived from aei, always, is distinguished from its Indo-European parallels (Lat. aevum and Eng. aye are cognate) in that it is thought of not so much from the point of view of an abstract period of time as from the point of view of the time in which one has lived. In Hom. aion is often parallel with psyche, soul, life (e.g. Il. 16, 453); in Hesiod (Frag. 161, 1) it denotes a life-span, and in Aeschylus (Sept. 742) a generation. Thence it can mean the time which one has already lived or will live, i.e. it can relate to past as to future. It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).[/indent]

[Continued in next post][/SIZE]
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,589
6,066
EST
✟998,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
This is a thorough study of the Greek word Aionios.
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: "When the father who begot it* perceived that the image made by him of the eternal (aidion) gods moved and lived, he was delighted with his work; and, led by this delight, thought to make his work much more like that first exemplar." Inasmuch therefore as it (the intelligible universe) is an eternal (aidion) animal (living being), so he set about to make this (the sensible) universe such with all his power. The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, that which in fact we call time; that is, days and nights, and months and years, which did not subsist before the heaven began to be, then with its being established he operates their birth" (beginning to be, genesin auton). And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... Time therefore began with heaven. that they having begun with it may be dissolved with it, if there be indeed any dissolution of them, and according to the pattern of eternal (diaionias, in some MSS. aionion or -as) nature that it might be as like as possible to it. For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." And then he goes on to speak of stars and planets, etc., as connected with what was created in time. It is impossible to conceive any more positive statement that aion is distinct, and to be contrasted with what has a beginning and belongs to the flux of time. Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages. It is a careful opposition between eternity and ages; and aion and also aionios mean the former in contrast with ages. ]

In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *
NIDNTT Colin Brown​
Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). For this expression (name) has been divinely uttered by the ancients; for the completeness which embraces the time of the life of each, outside which there is nothing, according to nature, is called the aion of each. According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios. Aristotle has not the abstract thoughts of Plato as to ideas, and the paradeigma of what is visible, the latter being a produced image of the eternal paradeigma. He rests more in what is known by the senses; and makes this the eternal thing in itself. But the force of aion for both is a settled point; and Aristotle's explanation of aion as used for finite things, I have long held to be the true one; that is, the completeness of a thing's existence, so that according to its natural existence there is nothing outside or beyond it. It periechei the whole being of the thing. 126

Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. To say that they do not mean it in Greek, as Jukes and Farrar and S. Cox, and those they quote, is a denial of the statements of the very best authorities we can have on the subject. If Plato and Aristotle and Philo knew Greek, what these others say is false. That this is the proper sense of aionios in Scripture, is as certain as it is evident. In 2 Corinthians 4: 18, we have ta gar blepomena proskaira, ta de me blepomena aionia. That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.

0166 aionios [size=+1]&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;
without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
aijwvnio" (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. oi[khsi"; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ej" mnhvmhn aij.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 aij. cavri"=a gracious gift for all future time; Dit., Or. 383, 10 [I bc] eij" crovnon aij.; ECEOwen, oi\ko" aij.: JTS 38, ’37, 248-50) of the next life skhnai; aij. Lk 16:9 (cf. En. 39, 5). oijkiva, contrasted w. the oijkiva ejpivgeio", of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. diaqhvkh (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.) Hb 13:20. eujaggevlion Rv 14:6; kravto" in a doxolog. formula (=eij" tou;" aijw`na") 1 Ti 6:16. paravklhsi" 2 Th 2:16. luvtrwsi" Hb 9:12. klhronomiva (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; aij. ajpevcein tinav (opp. pro;" w{ran) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod. S. 4, 63, 4 dia; th;n ajsevbeian ejn a{/dou diatelei`n timwriva" aijwnivou tugcavnonta; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) kovlasi" aij. (Test. Reub. 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; krivma aij. Hb 6:2; qavnato" B 20:1. o[leqron (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. pu`r (4 Macc 12:12.—Sib. Or. 8, 401 fw`" aij.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (IQS 2, 8). aJnavrthma Mk 3:29 (v.l. krivsew" and aJmartiva"). On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; Sib. Or. 2, 336) in the Kingdom of God: zwh; aij. Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21 al.; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36 al.; 1J 1:2; 2:25 al.—D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also basileiva aij. 2 Pt 1:11 (cf. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Dit., Or. 569, 24 uJpe;r th`" aijwnivou kai; ajfqavrtou basileiva" uJmw`n; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life dovxa aij. 2 Ti 2:10 (cf. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—Sib. Or. 8, 410). aijwvnion bavro" dovxh" 2 Cor 4:17; swthriva aij. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of heavenly glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses ta; mh; blepovmena aijwvnia 2 Cor 4:18.—carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.
Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.[/SIZE]​
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.