Who should we really be supporting in the latest Middle-East conflict?

[IisJustMe]

Are you factoring in that the US is occupying the state of Chihuahua?

Israel is not "occupying" any foreign territory. In fact, Israel is the only country that obeyed UN Resolution 1559 and got out of Lebanon by the Dec. 31, 2000 deadline. Syria stayed until last year. And Hezbollah, Hamas, and Fatah have never disarmed as required by the resolution. If you mean that Israel has no right to exist and is "occupying" Palestine, that's utter nonsense. Great Britain did not send Jewish settlers into a sovereign nation in the 1910's. It was a British protectorate, and before that, it had been an Ottoman Empire protectorate. The Palestinians never organized a government, never made any effort to establish an economy, and in 1913 a majority of them back were in fact fugitives from justice, having fled Jordon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, etc., to avoid punishment for crimes from theft to murder.

That full battle troops are a presence in the daily lives of the occupied areas?

Up until the unilateral withdrawl by Israel from occupied West Bank lands, the armed soldiers (not, as you so dramatically stated, in "full battle dress" but with helmuts and rifles) were there to prevent terrorist attacks on the sovereign nation of Israel. The Allies did the same thing to Germany for 46 years. Your scenario ignores that the only Arabs and Palestinians outside of Iraq enjoying a democratically elected government live in Israel! And they helped elect that government, and many of the Arabs and Palestinians living in Israel serve in the Knesset. There is no other place in the Mideast a Palestinian or Arab man can be elected to public office in his own government except Israel and Iraq, and forget about any place were Arab women can serve in elective office -- except, of course, for Israel and Iraq.

And let's not forget that the US president made a visit to a sacred shrine in Mexico, being fully aware that it would inflame passions, but did it anyway?

Yes by all means ignore 5,000 years of history for the sake of "political correctness." Sheez!!

And do US bulldozers indiscriminately raze entire neighborhoods, because there was a rumor that someone from the opposition was there?

No, and despite the hysterics of the Palestinian media, and their left-wingnut benefactors in the West, neither does Israel. The only buildings Israel bulldozed were Arafat's "impregnable fortress" in Gaza, and all he had to do to avoid it was come out with a public statement denouncing terrorism in Israel -- the statement didn't even have to be effective, he just had to make it. There's your "reasonable Palestinian" for you.

I'm not saying Hezbollah is right. I don't agree with terroristic tactics. But don't think the political entity of Isreal is pure, either.

No government is. But since the world decided in 1948 that Israel had the right to exist again as a nation, it is expected they should be free from outside attack. But they haven't been from day one, and will continue to be terrorized until Hezbollah is destroyed -- and I'm thinking that happens at around the time Jesus sets foot on Mt. Olivet.

 

[HumbleMan]

For the record, I do not support Hezbollah, Hamas, or Fatah, or any terrorist organization.

I just want to point out that Isreal is not always sitting there doing nothing and being attacked. They have provoked attacks on themselves and used the poor pitiful me surrounded by enemies line.

Isreal has every right to survive and thrive, but we shouldn't turn a blind eye to everything they do because of someone's theology.

 

[ZiSunka]

For the record, I do not support Hezbollah, Hamas, or Fatah, or any terrorist organization.

I just want to point out that Isreal is not always sitting there doing nothing and being attacked. They have provoked attacks on themselves and used the poor pitiful me surrounded by enemies line.

Isreal has every right to survive and thrive, but we shouldn't turn a blind eye to everything they do because of someone's theology.

Amen.

 

[IisJustMe]

I just want to point out that Isreal is not always sitting there doing nothing and being attacked. They have provoked attacks on themselves and used the poor pitiful me surrounded by enemies line.

... is indicative of a lack of knowledge of the facts (no offense.) I'd ask that you provide one example of such provocation on Israel's part -- or their exhibiting a "poor pitiful me" attitude ever. Please keep in mind, "existing" is not a valid provocation. Thanks.

 

[ZiSunka]

... is indicative of a lack of knowledge of the facts (no offense.) I'd ask that you provide one example of such provocation on Israel's part -- or their exhibiting a "poor pitiful me" attitude ever. Please keep in mind, "existing" is not a valid provocation. Thanks.

Where's that smiley that rolls his eyes when you need him.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

and will continue to be terrorized until Hezbollah is destroyed -- and I'm thinking that happens at around the time Jesus sets foot on Mt. Olivet.

Huh, say what?

Ok, lessee here now...

To start with, we have Jesus speaking to the Jews...

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

This is the beginning of the Tribulation, it is for the Jews that they might be brought to Jesus.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The Jews finally come around to Jesus as their King and Messiah!

Still, it is not the end.

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Still, it is not the end.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;

The Jews preaching the gospel!

Matthew 24:...and then shall the end come.

When the Jews finally accept and preach Jesus as their Messiah and King then shall come the end:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Matthew 24:16-21, "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

The end is in progress.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The Rapture is close, the Resurrection is at hand, the Lord is on His way.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The crops have been harvested, all that remains is the chaff. The terrifying last chapter has already begun.

The end of the end is very close at hand.

But....where is Mt Olivet in all of this?

HypoTypoSis

 

[IisJustMe]

You think the "beginning of sorrows" is the beginning of the Tribulation (it isn't; read II Thessolonians 2:2-10), you think the Jews come to know Jesus as Messiah before the Tribulation (they don't; read Revelation 7:1-12), that false prophets don't arise until the Tribulation (they're here now), you think the midpoint of the Tribulation is the end (abomination of desolation in the Temple is the midpoint, not the last), and you think the Rapture is post-Tribulation (it isn't; read I Corinthians 15:50-52, I Thessalonians 4:13-18, the II Thessalonians passage again, and Revelation 3;10). Worst of all, you do not know this prophetic prophecy:

In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. (Zechariah 14:4)

That is the end.

 

[TheUltimateWarrior]

Are you factoring in that the US is occupying the state of Chihuahua? That full battle troops are a presence in the daily lives of the occupied areas? And let's not forget that the US president made a visit to a sacred shrine in Mexico, being fully aware that it would inflame passions, but did it anyway? And do US bulldozers indiscriminately raze entire neighborhoods, because there was a rumor that someone from the opposition was there?

I'm not saying Hezbollah is right. I don't agree with terroristic tactics. But don't think the political entity of Isreal is pure, either.

What territory is Israel occupying that you would make that comparison too?

Where did Sharon go that would enrage Passions?

If the neighborhood is in Israel, they can legally raze it if they want, right or wrong. Im not advocating it, Im just saying that if we as americans razed a neighborhood full of canadians or mexicans who lived in America, Canada and Mexico have no ground to say anything.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

IisJustMe,

It appears you are putting a timeline together from several different passages throughout the bible that Jesus has already provided in a single portion of one chapter.

In the chapter in which Jesus prophecied end time events and those you have assembled from additional passages let's correlate them using the chronological order provided by Jesus:

• Matt 24:9-14 corresponds with Rev 3:9-10
• Matt 24:15 corresponds with your II Thess 2:2-10
• Matt 24:21 corresponds with your Rev 16-17
• Matt 24:29 corresponds with your Rev 6:12-17
• Matt 24:30 corresponds with I Thess 4:13-17
• Matt 24:31 corresponds with I Corinth 15:51-52
• Matt 24:30-31 corresponds with Zech 4:3-5

While Jesus' list is succinctly ordered and has minimally reordered your list the two appear, essentially, to be the same.

What is your summation based upon your various prophetic passages provided when contrasted in light of Jesus' own prophetic interpretation with respect to the end time order of events?

HypoTypoSis

 

[MrJim]

How do you justify these statements ... ... and ...
... in light of this:

Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. (Romans 13:7)

The church cannot be separate from the world if its members are not only to subject themselves to the government, but to serve the government. Without the witness of obedience to the government, we have no witness of Christ. He never denied Rome's power, He never challenged Rome's power, but He worked within the framework of society that the Roman government oversaw.

Ah that is a simple one. As I said earlier there is great difference between obedience and submission. One can still submit without obeying. That is what I meant by presenting myself to a draft board. I will not run away like a draft dodger, but submit to the gov't as is its due. But I will not serve-and I should say historical anabaptists-the military.

Submission does not equal obedience.

Using the Romans 13:7 argument one could say the Christian Iraquis would have had to obey conscription and fight for Saddam or Hitler or any other ruler. Then, if you want to say that it's up to the individual Christian to decide if the ruler is "worthy", say Bush or Roosevelt or Blair is OK but Saddam or Hitler or Nero is not then a gray area is opened up that is not covered in the scripture. Paul is saying to do all these things to the Roman gov't as represented by Nero at the time of this writing.

Historical anabaptists submit to the powers. Do not confuse them with the pacifists. Anabaptists are non-resistant, not pacifist. There is a huge difference. It's like an unbeliever saying a Baptist and a Catholic and a Jew are all exactly the same thing because they believe in God.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

It is also possible to obey without submitting.

 

[MrJim]

It is also possible to obey without submitting.

Boy you are right. It's like when ya have to make the kids clean up after themselves. They do it, but are angry/resentful about it fighting the whole time.

Works that way with grownups, I see it at work all the time.

 

[JPPT1974]

It is also possible to obey without submitting.

Yeah you got that right!