Who should we really be supporting in the latest Middle-East conflict?

[HypoTypoSis]

Seriously, though, a couple days ago a fighter jet shot a missile from over Vandenburg AFB and correctly hit its target in the water off the Marshall Islands 4200 miles away. Who needs foot soldiers when we can accomplish the same thing sitting at home and playing video games?

 

[MrJim]

Well, whether a C.O. is given a red cross arm band or a rifle is a moot point because either way they're sent to the front. Either way, they owe their country and when their country says their time is due they do.

You need to check into CO a little more. The mennonite folks that served worked in hospitals, mental institutions, and I even heard of some fellows that were parachute trained for fire jumping. They are not sent into the military. That's why it's called alternative duty.

 

[DeaconDean]

Seriously, though, a couple days ago a fighter jet shot a missile from over Vandenburg AFB and correctly hit its target in the water off the Marshall Islands 4200 miles away. Who needs foot soldiers when we can accomplish the same thing sitting at home and playing video games?

Yep your right. And in 1983, a Russian pilot shot down KAL flight 007. If we can sit at home and shoot down aircraft with missles, what is to eliminate human error as the Russian pilot did? That missle has no brains, it just goes after whatever it's radar locks on to. Who says the missle can't mistake a passenger airliner for a military airplane? In 1952 the USAF had a shoot-down ratio of 12-1 during the Korean War (Conflict). In 1968, the USAF had a shoot-down ratio of 3-1. Why is that? Dependance on air-to-air missles. What happened in Operation Desert Storm? U.S. reliance on Patriot Missles caused the deaths of 35 Israel citizens. Put your trust in technology, I'll put my trust on the soldier in the field that has a brain and can tell the difference between right and wrong.

 

[TheUltimateWarrior]

I said it before and I'll say it again.

We should support Israel.

Why? Becuase they are our allies, and they are going to win.

Besides at this rate they might take out syria and Iran as well.

 

[IisJustMe]

You need to check into CO a little more. The mennonite folks that served worked in hospitals, mental institutions, and I even heard of some fellows that were parachute trained for fire jumping. They are not sent into the military. That's why it's called alternative duty.

Your statement that "they are not sent into the military" is not applicable across the board. To be granted C/O status, one must declare his objections at the time of Selective Service Registration, or, if claiming to be morally opposed to war in general (the Supreme Court has ruled that opposition to a particular war is not valid for C/O status) after registration, must produce documentation, including letters from priests, pastors or spiritual advisors explaining in detail that the subject seeking such status has a legitimate reason of faith for being classified C/O.

Even then, there are two separate classifications. Those willing to serve in non-combatant roles are classified 1-A-O. It might surprise you to know that many Quakers, Friends, and Mennonite C/O's choose this status, which could still place them on the front lines as corpsmen, or in rear-echelon areas such as MASH or MARS units. Only those who declare themselves absolutely opposed to military service of any kind are classifed 1-O, and therefore are subject to alternative service, for example as fire jumpers.

One of the corpsmen attached to the Ranger unit I flew in and out of LZs during Vietnam was a C/O. Ben was a Quaker from western Pennsylvania. He loved this country, and he wanted to serve, but he made it clear that he would not put himself in a position to do harm or inflict death on others. In the liberation of Quang Tri, 72 June, we flew for 107 hours straight, minus the 15-minute catnaps on the ground for refueling and rearming. During several of our sortees into and around Quang Tri, Ben brought wounded out on his back, was twice wounded himself but remained on the line.

At about the 90th hour of the mission to liberate the city, the NVA mounted a fierce counterattack and were about to overrun his unit. Ben grabbed the wounded radio operator's headset and screaming over the command net for "dust off" -- my bird responded. We were only 30 second out. But by the time we got there, we weren't needed. Ben had grabbed an M-16 and five grenades. He held off the attack and forced the NVA to retreat, and yes -- he killed three of them. We found him clutching the rifle and shaking like a leaf. My chief leaped off our bird and ran to him to see if he was OK. Ben looked at him with wide eyes, and said, "They were gonna kill us all. I couldn't let them kill my friends, could I?" Ben died in a car wreck in 1983.

You see, Ben figured out that "there is a time for war, and a time for peace." I don't like war. Neither did my first right seat in 'Nam. He was the son of a Baptist preacher from Tupolo, Mississippi. He was the first black man I called my friend. I lost him 4 Feb 72 to heavy small arms in a hot LZ. We cannot live a completely separated life as you have espoused throughout this thread. These men knew that. I was not a Christian at the time of my service, though I came very close at the life and witness of my friend and right seat. In fact, it was the memory of what kind of man he was that kept me from ever straying too far from what is right and decent in this life, though it was 21 years after I lost him that I came to know his Savior as my own. Somehow, I know he smiled that day.

If not for good men like Ben, and my friend, men who were willing to put their lives on the line for their country, I wouldn't be here today, the inheritor of their message, and the man willing to spread it because they were willing as well.

 

[Flynmonkie]

I always remind people to watch Sergeant York. It is an old but yet great film with one of my favorites, Gary Cooper. This is where I finally understood there is a time for protection, even if it means that you have to take a life in the process. I also realized that sometimes people are placed in situations that hard choices have to be made. The glorious thing I believe is that in that hard choice, even if we make a mistake, we are already justified; if that makes sense?

 

[HypoTypoSis]

You see, Ben figured out that "there is a time for war, and a time for peace." I don't like war.

We cannot live a completely separated life as you have espoused throughout this thread. These men knew that. I was not a Christian at the time of my service, though I came very close at the life and witness of my friend and right seat. In fact, it was the memory of what kind of man he was that kept me from ever straying too far from what is right and decent in this life, though it was 21 years after I lost him that I came to know his Savior as my own. Somehow, I know he smiled that day.

If not for good men like Ben, and my friend, men who were willing to put their lives on the line for their country, I wouldn't be here today, the inheritor of their message, and the man willing to spread it because they were willing as well.

Thank you, very much, IisJustMe, for that insightful and illuminating piece of your life and of your friends. It was, indeed, most touching. Indeed, there is a time for everything, even for those things we find most distasteful and reprehensible. When that time comes, I suppose the question at that point is, are we mature enough to not only recognize the impending necessity but, more so, are we willing to step up to the plate, take the responsibility and make the difference? There really is no difference between your friend's question and subsequent action than there is between a parent finding no other way out but to kill a deranged home intruder whose intent is to murder their spouse and children. Certainly no one, regardless of beliefs, would object to such. By the same token, the statement that one loves their country extends in the same fashion to not just that country's system and way of life but, more importantly, to it's people as well.

HypoTypoSis

 

[MrJim]

We cannot live a completely separated life as you have espoused throughout this thread.

That is quite an experience you had-thank you for sharing it.

We can live separated-beyond that we are called to do it.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.


Whether in Vietnam or Iraq allowing ones self to be used by the gov't to do its bidding when that bidding is contrary to what Christ has called us to do presents an issue that each has to deal with.

It is not my goal to diminish the work of the military. They are a empowered by God via Romans 13 to do a job. The gov't is empowered by God to do a job. But our teaching is that the Church is separate from the world and therefore separate from the gov't. I don't view Christian military folks as unsaved at all, but rather, something along the lines of maybe "not taught correctly", much as calvinists view us non-calvinists

Now when your Quaker friend picked up that rifle what was on his mind was probably not UN/Nixon foreign policy, but simply protecting his friends. Honestly, and I've stated this before, I keep a loaded Beretta not 3' from this computer because I haven't completely laid down my defense mechanism. Now that I will defend my children & wife can be expanded into war service, but at this point that's where I'm at. Maybe that makes me a hypocrite, but it's just where I'm at in the journey. I doubt that a prior service guy like me would be called up but if they wanted to toss me into jail or worse then so be it.

Yes, lots of mennonites didn't go Alternative service, though that was a sign of the times and not an "OK" from the church. The historical anabaptist church generally represented today by the conservative mennonites (among others) takes the NT teachings of Christ at face value. Loving enemies is not an easy thing to do but we are called to do it anyhow. And loving them generally doesn't involve violence.

It's a tough topic for many, especially during a wartime. Many folks bleed red/white/blue, hey I used to. But I've been transformed, the politics of some temporal nation really mean little compared to the eternity of the Kingdom that we are called to serve. And that don't just mean going to church and sitting at a computer typing pious platitudes (mea culpa) but involves all that we've been called by Christ to do-and that's plenty.

 

[ZiSunka]

Who should we really be supporting in the latest Middle-East conflict?

No one.

Why do we have to choose one bad choice or another?

Why do we have to choose to support either of the two organizations that act as terrorists?

Why wouldn't we just stand up and speak out against terrorism across the board?

Who dod you support in the Sri Lankan civil war?

 

[IisJustMe]

Why do we have to choose to support either of the two organizations that act as terrorists?

Fact: The Palestinian/Arab population of Israel enjoy all the freedoms of the democracy in Israel, including the right to vote and the right to hold public office. In fact a number of Arab men and women serve in the Knesset, the Israeli Parliment. What rights do Jews living among the Palestinian/Arab populations of the Mideast enjoy?

Fact: Israel does not send suicide bombers or launch US- or British-supplied missles into Gaza or Lebanon to kill innocent civilians with whom they have no legitimate complaint, the sole reason being they are Palestinian/Arab. On the other hand, Hezbollah, Hamas, and Fatah send both suicide bombers and launch Iranian- and Syrian supplied missles into Israel for the sole purpose of killing innocent civilians with whome the have no legitimate complaint, the sole reason being they are Jewish and Israeli.

Fact: When Great Britain began allowing Jewish settlers back into what we then called Palestine (a place that never existed as a nation, or in any other form except in the vocabulary of ancient Rome) compensation was paid, not only to anyone displaced by Jewish settlers, but also to anyone who wanted to avoid living among Jews. In contrast, Jews are not allowed to own lands in Palestinian/Arab territories or countries.

Fact: When Israel began retaliating against Hezbollah for the concentrated rocket attacks against their sovereign territory, suddenly the news media is in the midst of reporting "Day 13 of the Mideast Crisis!" What happened to reporting on "Day 10,412 of the Terrorist Attacks on Israel"???

Just in case you don't get my point, the terrorists have been attacking Israel with suicide bombers, suitcase bombs, assassination squads, rockets, artillery and every other form of military action for over 30 years, and Israel's only response since 1973 has been to send attack helicopters or precision fighter-bombers across the border to deal with the cell responsible for the attacks. When it became obvious Hezbollah was escalating the severity of attacks with the help of foreign powers acting in direct violation of UN Resolution 1559 (major points: all foreign troops out of Lebanon, allow Lebanon to function as a democracy, disarm the militias -- i.e., Hezbollah, Hamas, and Fatah), Israel responded in the only way it could, by acting to eliminate the threat.

The foremost victim of senseless terroristic acts in the last 30 eyars, Israel has shown tremendous restraint. Now that they have chosen to stop being patient, you, that moron Kofi Annan and the rest of the UN, along with the liberal idiots of the media lump them together with the terrorists. There is no possible way for you to justify that remark. It shows a complete lack of knowledge of the situation.

 

[ZiSunka]

So you think there is only one way to be, and that is supportive of a government that closes 1/2 of it's population out of participating in government, and that bombs residential neighborhoods killing innocent people including children, trying to make it's own cities safe from being bombed in their own residential neighborhoods?

You have strange logic.

 

[IisJustMe]

How do you justify these statements ...

But our teaching is that the Church is separate from the world and therefore separate from the gov't.

... and ...

But I've been transformed, the politics of some temporal nation really mean little compared to the eternity of the Kingdom that we are called to serve.

... in light of this:

Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. (Romans 13:7)

The church cannot be separate from the world if its members are not only to subject themselves to the government, but to serve the government. Without the witness of obedience to the government, we have no witness of Christ. He never denied Rome's power, He never challenged Rome's power, but He worked within the framework of society that the Roman government oversaw.

 

[arunma]

The church cannot be separate from the world if its members are not only to subject themselves to the government, but to serve the government. Without the witness of obedience to the government, we have no witness of Christ. He never denied Rome's power, He never challenged Rome's power, but He worked within the framework of society that the Roman government oversaw.

Well...I agree with most of what you've said, but it doesn't seem as if Christ worked within the framework of Roman society. After all, he commanded his Apostles to practice a ministry that was contrary to Roman law, which only permitted the practice of certain religions (it so happened that Judaism was a legal religion at the time, which is why the nation of Israel did not worship Roman deities). I think it may be more accurate to say that while Christ did not seek to actively subvert any government, nor did he alter his teachings so as to conform with any government.

 

[Flynmonkie]

So you think there is only one way to be, and that is supportive of a government that closes 1/2 of it's population out of participating in government, and that bombs residential neighborhoods killing innocent people including children, trying to make it's own cities safe from being bombed in their own residential neighborhoods?

You have strange logic.

AH, Just war theory... sometimes you have to engage in evil to do good........gone awry!

Such decisions should be made with heaviness of heart...

In a nutshell.......
As it has been explained to me that the reason the Christians have an interest in this situation is that if Israel is destroyed, or all the Jews are destroyed, there will be no proof of Christianity, of Christ (Jewish, direct decendants of Abraham). (I believe I have that correctly) The Hezbollah will not stop killing until all are dead. Where as if Israel wins, this will stop. The Hezbollah will continue to go on killing until target America is next. So what do we do as Christians in support or non support of Isreal for protection?

I do also have to say, I find the term innocent interesting here. If someone is around, living etc with a group such as this, how innocent could they be, except children. But when it boils down to it, it is your child or this situation (at least this is what I grasp a this point)

So effectively it would be like your loaded gun on the computer, just a grander scale? My concern is that "can we trust those that engage in this thought are doing so with a heaviness of heart"?

 

[IisJustMe]

it doesn't seem as if Christ worked within the framework of Roman society. After all, he commanded his Apostles to practice a ministry that was contrary to Roman law, which only permitted the practice of certain religions (it so happened that Judaism was a legal religion at the time, which is why the nation of Israel did not worship Roman deities).

Under Augustus and Tiberius, local religions were left to the local priests of those religions. Judaism was, in fact, known in Rome and Asia at the time of Christ. It wasn't until Nero when "dangerous religions" came under the scrutiny of the government. Before that nut became emperor, the accepted reasoning was not to upset local custom or religion for fear of fomenting uprising. Also, the Romans could not differentiate between Judaism and Jesus' ministry. To them it was the same, so even if your statement was correct, what Jesus was preaching would not have appeared outside the boundaries of Judaism to the average Roman.

 

[IisJustMe]

So you think there is only one way to be, and that is supportive of a government that closes 1/2 of it's population out of participating in government

You say that despite my statement that Palestinians and Arabs living in Israel have the right to vote and the right to hold office. Did you read the post? Or are you just calling me a liar? Either way, you're way off base.

and that bombs residential neighborhoods killing innocent people including children

You must get your news from the Hezbollah Times, or whatever they call their propaganda organ. Yes, a few residential neighborhoods have been hit in Gaza and Lebanon, both in the current conflict and over the years of terrorist acts perpetrated on Israel by the terrorist militias Hezbollah, Hamas, and Fatah. The number of Palestinian or Arab civilians hurt or killed by Israeli rockets and bombs absolutely pales in comparison to the death and destruction wrought on innocent Israeli civilians at the hands of the suicide bombers and rocket attacks, and if you don't believe that, its because you don't want to believe that.

Israel does not have a planned and executed program of terror against Gaza and Lebanon, nor do the governments of Gaza and Lebanon against Israel. But the terrorists who continue to defy the UN resolution to disarm do have such a program against Israel, and it appears to me you would have Israel stand down and allow themselves to be destroyed. How do you justify that?

You have strange logic.

One of us does, and I'm certain it isn't me.

 

[53Isaiah]

I support God's wisdom and pray that he use the situation for his glory and purpose of the kingdom.

 

[Hisbygrace]

I support God's wisdom and pray that he use the situation for his glory and purpose of the kingdom.

I agree with you 53Isaiah....

 

[TheUltimateWarrior]

Israel, Because they are going to win.

Heres a little scenerio to think about...

WHat if Mexico or Canada had been launching missiles and bombs randomly into America for the last 20 years, killing americans for no reason, and than two weeks ago, came into america, kidnapped two soldiers, killed seven more and killed a college student. Would you want America to sit around and just take it or would you want us to stand up for ourselves?

 

[HumbleMan]

Israel, Because they are going to win.

Heres a little scenerio to think about...

WHat if Mexico or Canada had been launching missiles and bombs randomly into America for the last 20 years, killing americans for no reason, and than two weeks ago, came into america, kidnapped two soldiers, killed seven more and killed a college student. Would you want America to sit around and just take it or would you want us to stand up for ourselves?

Are you factoring in that the US is occupying the state of Chihuahua? That full battle troops are a presence in the daily lives of the occupied areas? And let's not forget that the US president made a visit to a sacred shrine in Mexico, being fully aware that it would inflame passions, but did it anyway? And do US bulldozers indiscriminately raze entire neighborhoods, because there was a rumor that someone from the opposition was there?

I'm not saying Hezbollah is right. I don't agree with terroristic tactics. But don't think the political entity of Isreal is pure, either.